Chicago Public Schools Now Forcing Students To Use Requested Transgender Pronouns

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Kids that abuse other kids in an attempt to make their lives hell should be punished accordingly. But it's unlikely this is going to prevent any more abuse because the perpetrator doesn't usually care about the "rules" in the first place. I can't believe you think this is actually going to make a difference for transgender children.

You mean like punishing kids for abusing others over race never changed at all?
You mean like punishing kids for abusing overs because they're gay changed nothing at all?

Funny, history seems to suggest exactly the opposite.
Schools are vastly different now compared to what they were like when I was a teen and anyone even suspected of being gay would be attacked on a daily basis.

Now we have student LGBT groups on pretty much every school and college campus in our countries where teens are protected and supported in their education and where violence and abuse of them is significantly less than it ever has been before.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
This will have no impact AT ALL for transgender children either, that is my point.

I think you're wrong, and I think the constant and ongoing change in social attitudes proves you're wrong.
Even if you are right, you seem to believe that nothing should be changed even when it has no impact on you, because you're sceptical that it's going to improve their lives.

I'm so glad people didn't think the same thing about slavery, or the rights of women to vote.

"I don't think they deserve it, and I don't think it will change anything, so lets not bother".
How regressive of you.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Things should only be done if meaningful change is the result of the action. What meaningful change do you think will come from this? Do you really think little Johnny is going to refrain from demeaning Alice just because he was told he can no longer refer to her using the incorrect pronoun? You think this will make a serious dent in the number of transgender children being bullied?

So you don't think this is meaningful change in the lives of those students?
And who gets to decide who is "worthwhile"?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
I am all for improving the lives of the most people possible, but I just disagree that this specific action will bring forth any meaningful change.

Again, you suggest that this is enough of a reason to not even bother to attempt to improve their lives, because you personally doubt that it will help them even though it can't hurt to try, and even though there's plenty of evidence that changing social attitudes support such a move.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
I very much doubt this move will make little, if any, difference to the lives of transgender children. It is a political move more than it is a social one.

Oh here we go...
"It's Political correctness gone mad I tell you!"

Nope, it's a school system making a minor change which doesn't affect anyone but those impacted by abuse from others. There is no politics here, unless you think giving others equality and security in their rights and freedoms is "political correctness".

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
It's still pretty judgemental, only you feel justified negatively judging these people because you disagree with their views. You can't solely judge the parents based on the behaviour of the child. What if the child has mental issues? What if their bullying tendencies are due to influences other than the parents?

Ah, but that's only a very extreme minority, and by your own admission when it's an extreme minority why should we even consider them at all?
You've made this distinction yourself, claiming that this group of transgender students are not worthy of equal protections in the school system because they're an extreme minority and don't deserve consideration, and yet here you are now attempting to defend an extreme minority of bigoted kids because they might have been influenced by others rather than their parents!



Okay, lets remove the mentally unstable kids and those influenced by guardians who are not their parents, or perhaps even their peers. It makes little difference to the conversation going on here, kids who abuse others deserve to be punished for that, regardless of who influences them. In the VAST MAJORITY of cases it is their equally ignorant and abusive parents they are learning these attitudes from.

a reply to: Rocker2013

You are missing the point, intentionally it now seems, and deflecting from the topic using emotional reasoning. But anyway, please carry on basking in your own ignorance.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

You can always not use pronouns.

a reply to: Rocker2013

You obviously didn't get the memo about this, so I'll fill you in... The Conservatives believe that it's their "God given right" to be nasty to people, to be disrespectful to others, to be intolerant of everyone not like them, that they are somehow superior to all others outside of their collective (whether that's political opinion, race, gender, religion, sexual identity...) and if you dare to even suggest that they just be damn decent people and treat others with respect you're a "liberal fascist" and part of some evil progressive plot sent by "commie" Obama to destroy all that's good about America.

Thanks for all the respect and tolerance. I wonder how much rational basis your theory has, and how much of it is mere projection.

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: Rocker2013

You obviously didn't get the memo about this, so I'll fill you in... The Conservatives believe that it's their "God given right" to be nasty to people, to be disrespectful to others, to be intolerant of everyone not like them, that they are somehow superior to all others outside of their collective (whether that's political opinion, race, gender, religion, sexual identity...) and if you dare to even suggest that they just be damn decent people and treat others with respect you're a "liberal fascist" and part of some evil progressive plot sent by "commie" Obama to destroy all that's good about America.

Thanks for all the respect and tolerance. I wonder how much rational basis your theory has, and how much of it is mere projection.

Ah! The fantastically stupid "it's intolerant for you to challenge my intolerance!"

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: Rocker2013

You are missing the point, intentionally it now seems, and deflecting from the topic using emotional reasoning. But anyway, please carry on basking in your own ignorance.

No, not at all.
The point is that this has NO BEARING AT ALL on your life, or the lives of other students, when it has the potential to vastly improve the lives of those who would otherwise become victims of little bullies.

Your argument seems to be that these people are meaningless, that they don't deserve to have a safe and secure place to learn like other students.

This is what you yourself have suggested, you've clearly stated that these students are an "inconvenience" and that providing a safe school environment for them is somehow wrong.

a reply to: Rocker2013

Hey! Stop disrespecting my liberty to force others to conform!

a reply to: Kali74

So Kali74 suggests that Dark Ghost has the option of not using pronouns. Dark Ghost wonders if not using pronouns will make Dark Ghost's writing seem a little strange. Does Kali74 have any other suggestions for Dark Ghost?

Of course, rather than changing a literary device that has been used for hundreds of years, transgender individuals could simply choose not to take offence to something as trivial as somebody using what they feel is the incorrect pronoun. Pretty simple concept, hey? Unfortunately, that suggestion lacks the political coating needed to keep us distracted.

originally posted by: new_here
We need to teach kids that it is ok to break gender stereotypes, instead of encouraging them to 'break camp' and change genders, in order to adhere to gender stereotypes.

Who exactly is encouraging kids to be transgender?

You probably think gay parents encourage their kids to be gay.

a reply to: Annee

You probably think gay parents encourage their kids to be gay.

Where the hell did that come from? I did not mention gay people at all. Sexual orientation and trans have nothing to do with each other. But I'm sure you know that. So are you trying to pick a fight, gas-light, strawman or just what?

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Annee

You probably think gay parents encourage their kids to be gay.

Where the hell did that come from? I did not mention gay people at all. Sexual orientation and trans have nothing to do with each other. But I'm sure you know that. So are you trying to pick a fight, gas-light, strawman or just what?

I see the correlation in the point you were trying to make, even if you don't.

So let's address that: Who exactly is encouraging kids to be transgender?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Annee

You probably think gay parents encourage their kids to be gay.

Where the hell did that come from? I did not mention gay people at all. Sexual orientation and trans have nothing to do with each other. But I'm sure you know that. So are you trying to pick a fight, gas-light, strawman or just what?

I see the correlation in the point you were trying to make, even if you don't.

So let's address that: Who exactly is encouraging kids to be transgender?

You see thru your own lens then, not mine.

As for 'encouraging' ...a more appropriate word would be 'facilitating.' Parents who put their kids on blockers so they can act out being the other sex facilitate the transition of their children, when helping them to break down the gender stereotypes and accept their natural human form, would be a much more humane approach, and in the best interest of children.

If a child is born male but mentally identifies as female, perhaps that child and his parents and all others should accept him as he is. Why does he have to think that his body must be changed to accommodate his mind. Is it societal norms as to what a female must look like and what a male must look like that makes the transgender individual feel he/she HAS to change their body image.

Maybe it is time to simply accept yourself as you are and help others to accept that this very small population of individuals are here on this planet now for a reason and they don't have to go through painful surgeries and chemical injections to change their bodies.

In other words, that 0.3 of 1% of the population are unique. They have a body and a mind that is different. Why don't we tell them that it is okay to have a penis while at the same time it is okay to think you are a female (that is, if parental guidance and teaching has not worked to correct the gender confusion.)

Shouldn't we be focusing on helping them accept themselves as they are, rather than telling them that since your mind tells you that you are female, you now must start this chemical and physical mutilation to change your body.

Why not help them accept the body they were born with and figure out how to reconcile the two. Surely with the dozens of gender identification categories, if they absolutely NEED a sexual relationship, they can find it.

I know that thought is out of the box, but instead of a parent having to automatically assume hormone treatments and surgeries will be necessary, maybe we should start looking at this unique group in a different way and help them accept their bodies AND their minds as they are.

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Annee

You probably think gay parents encourage their kids to be gay.

Where the hell did that come from? I did not mention gay people at all. Sexual orientation and trans have nothing to do with each other. But I'm sure you know that. So are you trying to pick a fight, gas-light, strawman or just what?

I see the correlation in the point you were trying to make, even if you don't.

So let's address that: Who exactly is encouraging kids to be transgender?

You see thru your own lens then, not mine.

As for 'encouraging' ...a more appropriate word would be 'facilitating.' Parents who put their kids on blockers so they can act out being the other sex facilitate the transition of their children, when helping them to break down the gender stereotypes and accept their natural human form, would be a much more humane and in the best interest of children.

Its pretty clear what you said and are saying.

That transgender is an act. That parents force it on them.

Gender is in the brain. Not their human form.

originally posted by: queenofswords
If a child is born male but mentally identifies as female, perhaps that child and his parents and all others should accept him as he is. Why does he have to think that his body must be changed to accommodate his mind. Is it societal norms as to what a female must look like and what a male must look like that makes the transgender individual feel he/she HAS to change their body image.

I think that's probably individual.

But, we are a social animal. Most do want to fit in.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

No. I suggest you stop using he or she if you're not sure.

It can go like this:

Good morning to you, beautiful day isn't it?

Instead of:

Good morning to you sir/ma'am, beautiful day isn't it?

It is a beautiful day, an incredibly beautiful day seems kind of silly to waste it on wondering about what genitalia people have, if they're in the proper bathrooms and being addressed with proper pronouns... doesn't it?

I'm grateful I've never had to suffer with knowing my body didn't match my brain, grateful I never had to think about which bathroom the government would punish me for if I went into the one I felt safe in instead, grateful I wasn't a woman born with a penis beaten or murdered in a men's bathroom by a bigot or a man born with a vagina but growing facial hair and bulked out from hormones and lifting shot to death in a women's bathroom because it was assumed I was going to sexually assault a woman.

But yeah... them pronouns.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Annee

You probably think gay parents encourage their kids to be gay.

Where the hell did that come from? I did not mention gay people at all. Sexual orientation and trans have nothing to do with each other. But I'm sure you know that. So are you trying to pick a fight, gas-light, strawman or just what?

I see the correlation in the point you were trying to make, even if you don't.

So let's address that: Who exactly is encouraging kids to be transgender?

You see thru your own lens then, not mine.

As for 'encouraging' ...a more appropriate word would be 'facilitating.' Parents who put their kids on blockers so they can act out being the other sex facilitate the transition of their children, when helping them to break down the gender stereotypes and accept their natural human form, would be a much more humane and in the best interest of children.

Its pretty clear what you said and are saying.

That transgender is an act. That parents force it on them.

Gender is in the brain. Not their human form.

Nope, I think the kids are confused, and the parents these days are being coached to go along with it. Drop the gender stereotypes and lets encourage kids to accept the bodies they were born with and pursue interests across gender barriers.

a reply to: new_here

Yours is a very reasonable approach.

a reply to: new_here

You've had no personal experience with a transgender kid, have you?

a reply to: xuenchen

Hmmm, well I read the article and my guess is that 1) it won't come up very often and 2) the "kids" will, if they haven't already, find its smarter to just keep their mouths shut.

And that's one of the weird unintended consequences of rampant PC rules.......people just clam up.