Chicago Public Schools Now Forcing Students To Use Requested Transgender Pronouns

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Gryphon66

I didn't say anything about brain scans being used as diagnostic criteria did I? Nice strawman.

No you didn't, and that's the problem. You replied to my post to DeafAlien in which I asked why brain scans are not used as diagnostic tools, yet neither you nor he have an answer to that question. That's pretty telling.

Pretty telling that you're wildly trying to force a claim that no one here in this discussion has made.

Deaf Alien said:

Children with "male" or "female" brains will consistently "identify" with their genders. Many evidence point to that. Brain scans and genetic researches for example.

Did you read the Scientific American article that Deaf Alien kindly linked to you ... or are you just going to keep repeating the same droning question over and over.

And, aren't you going to address the matter of your claims about "subjective reality"? Where are the brain scans of your love for your family? Of your religious beliefs?

If there's no "brain scan" ... according to you, they're bull****.

Care to swallow your own bitter pill?

a reply to: new_here

Learn some patience. You aren't the only person in my life right now.

Oh you'd rather reply to people you consider hateful to you than replying to what you consider to be a rational reply to you?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: new_here

FINALLY!!! You replied to me!

Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria. But given the variety of transgender people and the variation in the brains of men and women generally, it will be a long time, if ever, before a doctor can do a brain scan on a child and say, “Yes, this child is trans.”

"Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria. But given the variety of transgender people and the variation in the brains of men and women generally, it will be a long time, if ever, before a doctor can do a brain scan on a child and say, “Yes, this child is trans.”

So essentially the brain scan thing is useless. I figured as much.

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: Deaf Alien

Hard science such as what can be found in brain scans would be more definitive than pseudo "studies" based on feelings.

As she said in her last sentence above:

Could it be that you really know the brain scan thing is bull#?

So how about you Queen ... are you willing to use the same criteria you're trying to slam onto trans* kids?

Can you objectively prove your religious or political beliefs based on a brain scan? Can you prove that you love your family with an MRI?

If not ...

Oh come on... the lengths you people will go to to avoid answering the question. No one has claimed any of that can be detected on a brain scan. It's tossed around as fact that trans can be detected, however. Gimme a break. You just made your case look ridiculous, as though detecting trans on a scan is as doable as detecting political beliefs.

Give YOU a break? No one has made the claim you're so desperately trying to ratchet Alien into either.

So ... you'll state clearly that subjective states of being ... love, belief, identity exist without reference to this "brain scan" you keep cawing about???

If not, it is in fact YOUR case that is clearly flawed.

a reply to: new_here

So essentially the brain scan thing is useless. I figured as much.

If you see things in things that are not there then I can't help you.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: Deaf Alien

Hard science such as what can be found in brain scans would be more definitive than pseudo "studies" based on feelings.

As she said in her last sentence above:

Could it be that you really know the brain scan thing is bull#?

So how about you Queen ... are you willing to use the same criteria you're trying to slam onto trans* kids?

Can you objectively prove your religious or political beliefs based on a brain scan? Can you prove that you love your family with an MRI?

If not ...

Oh come on... the lengths you people will go to to avoid answering the question. No one has claimed any of that can be detected on a brain scan. It's tossed around as fact that trans can be detected, however. Gimme a break. You just made your case look ridiculous, as though detecting trans on a scan is as doable as detecting political beliefs.

Give YOU a break? No one has made the claim you're so desperately trying to ratchet Alien into either.

So ... you'll state clearly that subjective states of being ... love, belief, identity exist without reference to this "brain scan" you keep cawing about???

If not, it is in fact YOUR case that is clearly flawed.

You need to go back and read thru the thread if you think the brain scan thing hasn't been tossed around at least twice as proof of trans.

I'm signing off for the night. Interesting debate. Let's try to all be more civil next time, what say?

originally posted by: new_here

So essentially the brain scan thing is useless. I figured as much.

Might be a textbook case of confirmation bias.

You're not trying to engage in conversation, or consider any alternatives to your present beliefs (which, you can't PROVE you have with a brain scan, so why should they be given any weight in the discussion, right?), you have an opinion, you ask a loaded question, and when others won't play along you just make the same BS statement you've been wanting to make all along.

#wasteoftime

a reply to: new_here

Good night. Just at least do a little more research then we can talk.

originally posted by: new_here

I'm signing off for the night. Interesting debate. Let's try to all be more civil next time, what say?

Sounds lovely. Perhaps you might start with not calling other people's sense of identity "bull****" eh?

Sleep tight.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
There is no valid point in the claim that anyone here has made any claim about the diagnostic value of a "brain scan" in verifying that someone's gender identity is trans*. Because a) no one has made that claim and b) the sense of identity is not limited only to brain structure.

A) is wrong, but b) I agree with. However, if you want to be classified as transgendered according to the law, then you need some evidence to support your desire to be recognised legally. Religious people are not classified legally as religious because they maintain certain beliefs, it is because their behaviours are evidence that they maintain those beliefs.

Did you Google "transgender brain scans"? That might be a place to start looking, if you truly are interested.

It is very difficult to find studies that are not pushing forth some type of agenda, which is why I do not personally put much faith into them. Even on other topics where I could link them to support my argument, I rarely ever do because I am aware that they are largely agenda-driven. You need to look at who funds a study or if there is a conflict of interest that might harm the integrity of the results.

You feel like I'm inaccurately grouping "her"? With whom? I have made a comment about "her" statements, and she was pretty clear in her statement that trans* identities are bull**** ... why don't you start from there in your defense?

I don't agree with every statement she has made, but I do agree with her overall arguments because they appear to be based on sound reasoning.

You want to talk about the intricacies of updating our legal system to acknowledge the realities of trans* individuals? Good deal ... that's a needful discussion ... but that's not what's being discussed here. The implication is that since classifying gender identity is mostly limited (at this point in time) to subjective measures, it's more a matter of the "imaginary" rather than the "personal" side of subjectivity.

Okay, I agree that is a tricky area to delve into, let us not go there then.

Really? I'm comparing apples and oranges? If we're talking about the subjective conceptions of ourselves (not to mention what the nature of truth is) are you implying that religious and political beliefs, emotions, et. al. are OBJECTIVE?

No, not implying that. But in terms of the law, we need to be able to measure a way for the individual to identify as transgender in addition to subjective anecdotes, which are unreliable — especially from a developing mind that is not mature enough to understand their feelings yet.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: GoShredAK

Should we try to steer their way to the gender that corresponds to the sexes they have and end up ruining their lives or just go along and work with doctors and see where it goes?

Not steer them one way or the other. Just let them be and be a loving parent no matter what. Let their brain develop before supporting a life changing, unnatural decision.

The fact that this is being debated is insane.

originally posted by: GoShredAK

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: GoShredAK

Should we try to steer their way to the gender that corresponds to the sexes they have and end up ruining their lives or just go along and work with doctors and see where it goes?

Not steer them one way or the other. Just let them be and be a loving parent no matter what. Let their brain develop before supporting a life changing, unnatural decision.

The fact that this is being debated is insane.

Do you comprehend the physical changes both male and female go through during puberty?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

A) is not wrong. No one has made the claim here that gender identity can be demonstrated solely by "brain scan." If someone has, quote it.

No one wants to be "classified as a transgendered" ... and there is ample evidence for different gender identities and a myriad of laws on the books dealing with the issues ... perhaps you should update your understanding of the matter?

Of course religious people make legal claims based solely on their religious beliefs. Your statement is absurd that religious freedom, for example, is based only on religious behaviors.

"Not pushing forth some kind of agenda" ... like what, reviewing scientific findings? What agenda are you "pushing forth" for that matter? Anyone who has an opinion about anything could be said to be doing the same thing. Again, that seems to be an absurd defense.

You agree with the reasoning that since gender identity relies on subjective criteria it's bull****?

/shrug can't help you there.

Legal definitions based on subjective experience abound. By implying that the ONLY basis for jurisprudence is objective measures, you're clearly displaying that "agenda" you were talking about above.

If we are to accept laws regarding religious freedom how can we not accept laws about gender identity?

What criteria do you suggest then? You keep waving your hands at some sort of objective measure you want to see ...

What is that? And lacking that, are you really claiming that trans* folks should not be allowed to seek treatment to correct biology until such sufficient "evidence" satisfying your requirements is discovered?

Wow.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: GoShredAK

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: GoShredAK

Should we try to steer their way to the gender that corresponds to the sexes they have and end up ruining their lives or just go along and work with doctors and see where it goes?

Not steer them one way or the other. Just let them be and be a loving parent no matter what. Let their brain develop before supporting a life changing, unnatural decision.

The fact that this is being debated is insane.

Do you comprehend the physical changes both male and female go through during puberty?

Do you think that if a kid has gender dysphoria that it is a good idea to give them hormone blockers instead of allowing puberty to take place?

originally posted by: GoShredAK

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: GoShredAK

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: GoShredAK

Should we try to steer their way to the gender that corresponds to the sexes they have and end up ruining their lives or just go along and work with doctors and see where it goes?

Not steer them one way or the other. Just let them be and be a loving parent no matter what. Let their brain develop before supporting a life changing, unnatural decision.

The fact that this is being debated is insane.

Do you comprehend the physical changes both male and female go through during puberty?

Do you think that if a kid has gender dysphoria that it is a good idea to give them hormone blockers instead of allowing puberty to take place?

Absolutely!

a reply to: Annee

It wouldn't have mattered either way!

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Annee

It wouldn't have mattered either way!

One at a time.

There has been a few.

a reply to: Annee

Be glad that the irrational people will fade away soon. And that we will finally move on.

How again do you determine whether a child is gender dysphoric? At what age should parents consider giving their kid these hormone blockers?

No need to be rude.

a reply to: GoShredAK

That's why they are working with doctors and psychiatrists. Pay attention.