Abortion doctors would lose medical licenses under new Oklahoma bill

a reply to: Annee

Slavery used to be legal.

Like I said, laws can change.

a reply to: ArnoldNonymous

Forcing women to give birth to unwanted babies is slavery. As a matter of fact,in those days of slavery, there used to be places called "breeding houses". If things go the way some want, we'll have to reinstate those kinds of places to keep the unwilling breeders in check.

originally posted by: Annee
Right Wing Fundies. Are there any real conservatives anymore?

Ha...I have no clue, as I'm not one, so I wouldn't know how to start vetting what a 'real conservative' is.

"Potluck" adoptive parents instead? Or orphanage, or foster home?

I could NEVER give my LIVING CHILD away. (a fetus is not a child)

My point being that your absolute comment about being forced to raise a child for 18 years (and we all know raising children doesn't end there) is a fallacy, as there are other options, whether or not you, personally, would take them.

And I agree that a fetus is not a living child, but it is a living, developing, unique human being, and one that deserves a chance for life in lieu of a decision by its "mother" that is not in the best interest of it (and don't give me a list of hypotheticals as to why the life of an unwanted/unplanned child could be horrible, because I can counter with just as many reasons as to why it could be wonderful) and one that it cannot defend or argue against for itself.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: ArnoldNonymous

Forcing women to give birth to unwanted babies is slavery. As a matter of fact,in those days of slavery, there used to be places called "breeding houses". If things go the way some want, we'll have to reinstate those kinds of places to keep the unwilling breeders in check.

First, your hyperbole would be comical if not ignorantly irrelevant and useless to this conversation.

Secondly, how far back to you want to go, and how broad do you want to get? Sure, you can pretend a law that makes elective abortion illegal is--hold on, let me type this with a straight face...hold on--"focing women to give birth" and "is slavery," but then we could go one step further and say that nature holds women in a hostage-style slavery because it dictates which sex gives birth.

Oh, but then we could also discuss the choice to have sex in the first place, but I'm assuming that you will argue that it is a natural urge and desire, and a woman should be forced to abstain from intercourse just because of the chance of becoming pregnant. I would agree, but then we are talking about natural law, here--the same that dictates that only women can give birth and holds them hostage in baby-making slavery...heck, that makes good ol' Mother Earth a sort of breeding house for you poor female birthing slaves.

See, I can sound as absolutely asinine as your comment, and I can even get more ridiculous if you want, but my point is that you're arguing based on a foundation of hyperbole, and it really adds zero credibility to either your opinion or this discussion, which is a rather serious topic.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

When a cure is available, but refused because of imposed morality, then yes it's forced.

But hey, I'm not the one who keeps bringing slavery into the discussion in this thread. I'm just answering its comparison to "injustice".

Besides I've had this argument, too many times, the other way around from the anti-choice community!

The Unmistakable Parallels Between Abortion and Slavery

Understanding the Slavery-Abortion Analogy

Abortion Is The New Slavery

I'll stick with my argument thank you. I works quite well.

Forcing women to give birth to unwanted babies is slavery. As a matter of fact,in those days of slavery, there used to be places called "breeding houses". If things go the way some want, we'll have to reinstate those kinds of places to keep the unwilling breeders in check.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: SlapMonkey

When a cure is available, but refused because of imposed morality, then yes it's forced.

Pregnancy is not a disease--it needs no "cure" in the vast majority of cases where the life of the mother is not threatened, there has not been a miscarriage, or it is not the result of a rape.

Besides I've had this argument, too many times, the other way around from the anti-choice community!

"Anti-choice"...like the human fetus has no choice to live? Don't suckle at the teat of incorrect (although widely accepted) buzzwords and phrases just because they sound good. Those of us who know the actual definition of "choice" know that there are more choices involved than just the woman's choice to abort or give birth.

I'll stick with my argument thank you. I works quite well.

Right...because you say so?

originally posted by: ArnoldNonymous
a reply to: Annee

Slavery used to be legal.

Like I said, laws can change.

I will not respond to those who can't stay focused on the subject.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

My point being that your absolute comment about being forced to raise a child for 18 years (and we all know raising children doesn't end there) is a fallacy, as there are other options, whether or not you, personally, would take them.

I answered your question.

Continuing to ask me the same question over and over - - will not change the answer.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Pregnancy is not a disease--it needs no "cure" in the vast majority of cases where the life of the mother is not threatened, there has not been a miscarriage, or it is not the result of a rape.

Pregnancy is a medical condition, that can cause multiple problems that can be cured with a safe, simple medical procedure. ABORTION.

"Anti-choice"...like the human fetus has no choice to live?

Of course it doesn't!

Those of us who know the actual definition of "choice" know that there are more choices involved than just the woman's choice to abort or give birth.

[SNIPPED]

originally posted by: windword

Oh for F&&k's sake! Who the hell do you think you are, waxing arrogant, riding your moral high horse!

Seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a baby, to give it away.

Why?

There are lots of poor kids in the US that could use a patron. Help them with their homework, help them with school clothes, meals, sports, medical, transportation. Every body step up and help the living

originally posted by: Atsbhct
a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

A bit off topic, but do you have access to widwife services where you are?

I had a midwife with my son and it was wonderful! None of this forced procedure f*ckery. Unfortunately, I can grow healthy babies and feed them once they get here but I can't get them out of my body on my own. I HAVE to have a c-section.

I wanted a tubal, which involved filing consent paperwork 30 days beforehand. But after reading about PTLS I think I'm going to pass on that. And when you show up to the ER without an admitting physician (like I did with the midwife) they treat you like dog sh*t. I have been tempted to forego prenatal care because it's been so stressful dealing with these doctors, but I was afraid they would call CPS on me. At this point, I think trying to see 7 different doctors shows due diligence on my part, so they can piss off. There's a doctor right now that MAY see me, but if she doesn't, oh well. I'll just wait until I go into labor and head to the hospital. At this point it's more hazardous to my health (and the fetus) to deal with these doctors than it would be just to stay at home and try to stay relaxed.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
But I wouldn't expect you to understand that I have a sister who has had an elective abortion, as a teenager. I won't go into details, but she has discussed her guilt and sadness over that decision many times over with me. So just understand that I HAVE had abortion affect one of my family members, as well as a few other women (an men) that I know (yes, men are affected by it, too, especially when their wife does it without their knowledge). To assume otherwise about me (and some of us who you ignorantly say don't "listen to reason") is simply ignorant. You don't know the history of anyone who holds a stance on abortion, regardless of what opinion they hold.

And for the record, I'm FOR abortions when there are medical complications that can affect the life of the mother. But, I'm "vasectomized" now and can't impregnate my wife anymore, so, what should I care...

Sorry, apathy isn't my strong suit.

It sucks that your sister made a decision and later felt it was the wrong one. But there are MANY MANY more women who made that decision and don't regret it one bit. It all boils down to personal choice, and only the individual has to deal with the consequences (unless they birth the baby into welfare, then tax payers are also involved).

"When their wife does it without their knowledge" Hmmmm....perhaps there is more going on with your men friends than you know about. I'm sure the women who do it without their partner's knowledge have a damn good reason to do so. Maybe instead of whining about their wives doing things without their consent, these guys should try to be less controlling? Less abusive? Less manipulative? More understanding? ...clearly I (and you) don't know what all went down in these situations, but just a thought.

"You don't know the history of anyone who holds a stance on abortion" And you don't know the circumstances of anyone who is choosing to have an abortion. If you did, you might just be surprised at how often you would understand their decision...when it's a real person and not an abstract thought.

"Sorry, apathy isn't my strong suit" Obviously.

So, you are clearly here with an anti-abortion stance, or at least anti-abortion in regards to cases where you don't feel like a woman's reasons are good enough for you. Do you just have a moral aversion to it? Or do you support legislation that dictates what a woman can or can't do with her own body? You've admitted you're not big on apathy, but try to put yourself in a similar situation....like when you chose to have a vasectomy (bravo for you BTW!)...what if a Catholic government made all birth control illegal? What if, in your family planning, you and your wife were done having kids, the safe and simple medical solution was right there...but someone of a different faith from you had made it illegal? Would you not be the least bit irked that you weren't allowed to make the decision for yourself and your own family?

a reply to: Annee

(I didn't ask a question in the quote that you referenced)

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
"When their wife does it without their knowledge" Hmmmm....perhaps there is more going on with your men friends than you know about. I'm sure the women who do it without their partner's knowledge have a damn good reason to do so. Maybe instead of whining about their wives doing things without their consent, these guys should try to be less controlling? Less abusive? Less manipulative? More understanding? ...clearly I (and you) don't know what all went down in these situations, but just a thought.

First off, I wasn't referencing any of my friends in that situation, I've just seen some news stories over the years about guys to whom this happened, so I know it's out there.

Secondly, it is astounding that you can jump to implications of controlling, abusive, manipulative men just because their wife might opt to kill their developing child without telling them first. Funny how it's apparently okay for a woman to do that...at least, that's what seems to be implied by you suddenly making the woman be the victim in that situation. Yes...it's all the guy's fault, and the woman did it out of spite...sheesh, are you hearing yourself?

Maybe that's not how your comment was meant to be interpreted, but it's not a far leap of logic to think that's what you meant. Funny how you refer to me bringing that up as "whining"...that pretty telling in itself.

"You don't know the history of anyone who holds a stance on abortion" And you don't know the circumstances of anyone who is choosing to have an abortion. If you did, you might just be surprised at how often you would understand their decision...when it's a real person and not an abstract thought.

Again, you're making assumptions about me that you know nothing about...stop pretending that you know me. I don't need to prove anything to you, but I'll just leave it at this--I have had female friends speak openly and intimately with both me and my wife about possibly getting an abortion (and even just myself prior to be married), so don't pretend like I'm only coming to my opinions via "abstract thought."

You know nothing about me, so please quit slinging out baseless accusations to make your argument seem more valid--it's literally making you look stupid.

"Sorry, apathy isn't my strong suit" Obviously.

So you would rather I just don't care about this issue at all? Seriously? Are you sure that you read the word "apathy" correctly, and aren't thinking that I meant empathy or sympathy?

So, you are clearly here with an anti-abortion stance, or at least anti-abortion in regards to cases where you don't feel like a woman's reasons are good enough for you. Do you just have a moral aversion to it? Or do you support legislation that dictates what a woman can or can't do with her own body? You've admitted you're not big on apathy, but try to put yourself in a similar situation....like when you chose to have a vasectomy (bravo for you BTW!)...what if a Catholic government made all birth control illegal? What if, in your family planning, you and your wife were done having kids, the safe and simple medical solution was right there...but someone of a different faith from you had made it illegal? Would you not be the least bit irked that you weren't allowed to make the decision for yourself and your own family?

Well, for starters, you obviously don't understand what the word "apathy" means, so I'm starting to question the validity of even debating this topic with you. (the part I put in bold is called EMPATHY)

I support defending those who can't defend themselves. There needn't be anymore said than that, but I'll oblige, since you asked.

For starters, faith has nothing to do with my decisions, as I am an atheist. We can play what-ifs all day, but that will get us nowhere, because they are just hypotheticals and nothing more. But, I certainly support a state's right to tell someone that they can't kill off a developing human being just because it might be an 'unwanted mistake' at that point in their life. It's about protecting human life, and I personally feel like an elective abortion is tantamount to premeditated murder--or at the very least, it's hiring a hitman to take out a family member.

Yes, we can get into the minute details that a fetus can't have a SSN, can't have a bank account in its name, doesn't have a birth certificate yet, etc., etc.--but I would say that if this is one's measure of what a human being is, then that definition is woefully inept at knowing what a human is.

To me, a human being is a living creature that has human DNA and is created by a human egg and sperm coming together in some way and creating a unique individual. The simple fact that nature has dictated that said human must exist inside of the female of the species for about nine months while developing and be attached via an umbilical chord during its tenure in the womb is irrelevant to it being a unique, individual human being.

When someone has a human being killed, I take offense to that--whether or not they want to assert their "right to privacy" as a piss poor excuse to be left alone in this killing is inconsequential to me. So, sure, I guess that you can say that I have a moral objection to it, but I feel that not killing our unborn humans just because we can is a pretty good societal goal.

Maybe we should treat abortion (since people claim it's a "right") like concealed carry of a weapon--make the woman take classes and then apply and pay for a license through their county or state government in order to exercise this right. I mean, both have the potential to kill a human being, right?

In any event, what you and others who hold a similar view fail to concede is that a fetus is its OWN BODY, not the property of the mother just because it has no choice but to develop inside of her. Abortion isn't about what a woman does with her own body, it's about what they do to another human being.

Disagree if you want, but you can't change my opinion on that basic reality.

originally posted by: windword
Oh for F&&k's sake! Who the hell do you think you are, waxing arrogant, riding your moral high horse!

Awww...did I hurt your feelings by stating that there's a more broad definition of "choice" that goes beyond your ideological usurpation of the word?

I'm okay with that.

I don't claim a moral high horse, just a horse that understands words. What I don't understand is how people can be so carefree about the intentional killing of a human being.

But, meh, to each their own. That's your...choice...as to what you believe. But regardless, I still prefer to speak out on behalf of those who can't defend themselves. If that makes you want to be demeaning and accuse me of riding a moral high horse (we both know that horses don't have morals), I'm okay with that, as I can defend myself.

I'm not okay with proactively getting excited over killing human beings, though. Call me crazy.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

What I don't understand is how people can be so carefree about the intentional killing of a human being.

An uninvited potential human being.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
But I wouldn't expect you to understand that I have a sister who has had an elective abortion, as a teenager. I won't go into details, but she has discussed her guilt and sadness over that decision many times over with me.

The question is: would she make the same decision again under the same circumstance?

Of course there's sadness. It's not a decision anyone ever wants to make.

It's about the RIGHT to make that decision.

originally posted by: Annee
Seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know...that SlapMonkey guy is such a morally superior douche! How could he even think to argue for the rights of a fetus to be born--he should know that these fetuses beg and plead to be created and brought into this world for their own selfish reasons.

Oh, wait...I'm him, and he's me, and fetuses don't do that. Maybe they should be given the opportunity to life, then, like we all had, because it wasn't their choice to be created.

Have a baby, to give it away.

Why?

It was, however, the choice of the mother and father to procreate. Yes, there are those small numbers of rapes that result in pregnancy, or those small percentages where birth control fails, but I'm talking about in general, sex is consensual that leads to a pregnancy. If both or either party are/is too inept to use contraception properly or at all, you're right, it's the baby that is created who should have to pay with its life.

Silly me. Why can't I just understand that awesome display of logic?

Ugh, I'm so dense!

You know, it's really sad that I start my comments on this thread being as respectful and matter of fact as possible on this topic, and it just devolves into name-calling and accusatory ramblings by certain people participating in this thread. It's impossible, apparently, to maintain civility.

It's apparent that this is not a discussion, but a my-side-is-better-than-your-side bickering, so I'm out.

Enjoy yourselves, everyone!

a reply to: Annee

And we just disagree with that "right" trumping the right to life that I believe exists for all humans, developing or already born.

So be it.

I'm going to make like a fetus and head out of this thread.