HB2, North Carolina mandate to hate homosexuals.

N case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of inflammatory, crazy crap going on right now that doesn't make sense. It's so they can distract us with with topics that people have always had issues with, so that we will argue and fight amongst ourselves....and not Obama, as he passes more bills behind the back of Congress and the America people. This is just a distraction to divide and conquer...like everything else our government does.

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician
N case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of inflammatory, crazy crap going on right now that doesn't make sense. It's so they can distract us with with topics that people have always had issues with, so that we will argue and fight amongst ourselves....and not Obama, as he passes more bills behind the back of Congress and the America people. This is just a distraction to divide and conquer...like everything else our government does.

This is not about Obama.

Nor anything he's doing.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Freija

your picture about going to the federal level makes me smile. Everyone is super pissed (pun intended), that HB2 took the ability to make these laws at municipality level, and now makes it have to happen at state level. That's bad. But moving it all the way to the Federal level is sooper cool.

Do you not see just a bit of irony there?

Equality under the law = good
Discrimination & bigotry = bad

Why don't you do a little Googling on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and see what kind of push back there was from the southern states. Can you imagine now what a complete cluster it would be if different states had a patchwork of different laws concerning racial equality? A rather large one, I can imagine.

And what did it take to make "good" the law of the land? I do believe that was legislation at the federal level, correct?

a reply to: Freija

And what did it take to make "good" the law of the land? I do believe that was legislation at the federal level, correct?

And, The National Guard!

originally posted by: Freija
And what did it take to make "good" the law of the land? I do believe that was legislation at the federal level, correct?

I'm really looking forward to seeing the Federal government delivering this significant smack-down.

It's coming, they're already looking into it and contemplating what they can do to move these states out of the dark ages and into the 21st century.

Part of me hopes that this all continues for a while though. Even though it makes me angry and even though plenty of people are being harmed by these laws, this is ultimately going to move the country on in massive leaps and bounds the longer it continues to be an issue.

And this is what the right-wing crazies really don't seem to get - just as Trump is causing a massive national lean to the left, these laws are creating even more determination to isolate and remove the right-wing from positions of influence and power.

America is turning to the left, and all these right-wingers with their ranting politics and their pathetic laws are only serving to hasten their own demise.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

It's coming, they're already looking into it and contemplating what they can do to move these states out of the dark ages and into the 21st century.

Obama already signed into order the Federal Employees anti-discrimination act (with religious exemptions, of course).

For it to be included in the Civil Rights Act it would have to be approved by Congress.

Fat chance with this Congress.

Homsexual have to respect religious rights just as much as religion has to respect homosexuals.Have to respect both sides or it is not good either way.

a reply to: Freija

it seems you missed the point by a few thousand miles. The original reason everyone is so angry at NC's HB2, is that it removed the ability for municipalities to enact anti-LGBT laws, is that correct?

If that is correct, then the power to do that has moved to the state level. Is that correct?

If that is correct, then why is it bad to move the power from the local level, to the state, but super cool to move it from state to federal?

Has the state failed to enact some law that you deem important? If so, which one?

originally posted by: Jobeycool
Homsexual have to respect religious rights just as much as religion has to respect homosexuals.Have to respect both sides or it is not good either way.

There are many religious LGBT.

Fundamental religious don't seem to think their rights end anywhere.

LBGT is a birthright. No different then hair or eye color except it affects orientation and gender variances.

Fundies do not get to deny rights because of biological differences.

Biology is science. LGBT is not a choice.

Religious belief is by choice.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Freija

it seems you missed the point by a few thousand miles. The original reason everyone is so angry at NC's HB2, is that it removed the ability for municipalities to enact anti-LGBT laws, is that correct?

Well, no, actually people are pissed that discrimination has been legalized at the state level, period. Overriding a local municipalities ability to enact their own anti-DISCRIMINATION laws is really only secondary to what has people pissed. You're missing the point not only by miles but entirely.

Legalized discrimination at the state level, much like marriage equality, can and needs to be overridden at the federal level. You just can't wrap your head around this, can you?

a reply to: Freija

Yes. Local is just a beginning.

Local areas recognizing the needs of their demographic.

Can you imagine California making a state law like this that denies San Francisco and West Hollywood the right to accommodate their specific demographic?

It's Religious Bullying pure and simple.

We are NOT a theocracy. This will backfire on the Fundies.

The goal has always been to include LGBT as a protected minority in the non-discrimination Civil Rights Act.

BTW -- my daughter really did not understand either til I showed her those pictures.

Keep showing those pictures.

Awareness and fact knowledge is the first step to fully understanding why this is so important.

Here's my take on the current madness flowing through main stream society.

Some people were born men and want to be women, so we have to call them women, acknowledge them as women, and let the use womens rest rooms.

Some people were born women and want to be men, so we have to call them men, acknowledge them as men, and let the use mens rest rooms.

When I was a kid I used to want to be an astronaut - does that mean if I stick a NASA badge on my coat you've all got to accept me as, acknowledge me as, and allow me access to places only astronauts can go?

Of course not, if I (the minority) do that you'll (the majority) tell me I'm mentally ill and I'll get laughed at and probably locked up.

But the other lot - we (the majority) have to accept that we're all wrong, it's the minority who have it right, and woe and betide you if you don't bow down and worship the ground they walk on while "celebrating" their diversity (whatever the hell that means).

We are going through a political phase where every minority is allowed to claim vicitimisation by the majority, and the majority had better shut up, do what, and think what you're told or there are very real probabilities that you'll go to jail.

It's madness.

You know, it won't be long before the flat earthers start to claim they're being victimised by the round earthers, and we'll have to stop talking about the round earth lest we upset someone's feelings, and hey, who are we to contradict whatever fantasy they have in their heads?

They want to believe the earth is flat and you might fall off the edge - so accept their wisdom and start worrying about going to jail for disagreeing rather than debating the point.

There is no debate, it's really simple - you (the majority) can shut up and take what's given to you and that's that.

It's governments new way to control the masses - by subjugating the masses through the introduction of compulsory stupidity.

originally posted by: Power_Semi

Some people were born men and want to be women, so we have to call them women, acknowledge them as women, and let the use womens rest rooms..

NO, that is wrong.

A transgender woman is a woman, born in a male body.

There is no WANT to it.

It is not a Choice.

originally posted by: Power_Semi
Here's my take on the current madness flowing through main stream society.

Some people were born men and want to be women, so we have to call them women, acknowledge them as women, and let the use womens rest rooms.

Some people were born women and want to be men, so we have to call them men, acknowledge them as men, and let the use mens rest rooms.

Annee called it. Nobody "wants" to be transgender any more that you "wanted" to be a man or be heterosexual. They just are. Who the hell would want to subject themselves to such hardship, pain, discrimination, ridicule and embarrassment, loss of friends, family, loss of income or career or to be subject of conservative republicans needing to check their genitals or having to show your papers to pee.

Being transgender is not a choice. It is not something you want or anything anyone can make you or not make you. For some of those that are trans, there is a choice to suffer in misery and extreme depression and anxiety for living a lie or inauthentic life. For some, this is all too much and they transition to live as the person and as the gender they are inside and to themselves. For others, they blind themselves with drugs or alcohol or just commit suicide because gender is fundamental to the core personality of everyone and who they as people. Emotionally and psychologically transgender girls and women are the same as natal girls and women although their life experience and physicality may be different. Same for transgender men too.

In the case of transgender children, that are just as fixed and consistent in their gender as non-transgender kids, a parents goal is to raise them in ways to minimize these differences in social and life experiences so they will grow up with the same opportunities as any other kid with a healthy sense of self-esteem and to be happy and productive adults. Please go back to page two of this thread and have a look at at who these kids are. These girls are NOT boys although the doctor or midwife assigned them as such based on what they could tell at the time they were born.

Now for example of the harm these bathroom bills can do, take one of these transgender girls that may have only ever gone to school and been known by their classmates as a girl. By high school, under close medical supervision, evaluation and counseling as you can see with the use of hormones, outwardly these girls go through the same changes from puberty and develop breasts and curvy bodies like any other girl.

Now tell this young woman she has to use the men's room at school, university or anywhere in public and think what is going to do to her emotionally and socially not to mention the insane risk of being assaulted or worse. If one of these kids was your daughter, you'd fight tooth and nail to have her treated with the same dignity, respect and security and privacy as anyone else or at least I hope you would. The statistics and outcomes for transgender children without supportive families is dismal and horrific.

When I was a kid I used to want to be an astronaut - does that mean if I stick a NASA badge on my coat you've all got to accept me as, acknowledge me as, and allow me access to places only astronauts can go?

Thank you for proving and confirming an observation I have made in every discussion about transgender children I have ever been involved with; inevitably someone will say "when I was a kid, I wanted to be a _____".

When you were that age and had these childhood fantasies of imagination and desire, did you know you were a boy? How old did you have to be to know you were a boy and were you sure? Maybe being a boy was just a phase or confusion? When you thought of wanting to be an astronaut when you grew up, did you see yourself as a male astronaut or a female astronaut. These thoughts probably seem absurd to you - because you are not transgender.

It may probably be also worth mentioning that transgender and gender non-conforming people have been around a lot longer than astronauts OR republicans.

I may have missed it, but im interested in Freija's take on this:

If a person believes they are disabled and actually are not (body integrity identity disorder), should society observe them as being disabled? Meaning, would they then qualify for disability and handicapped parking, etc?

I know that they wouldn't now...im asking more as a logic test for the discussion of transgender. Just an idea i'd like to explore with friendly folks willing to do so. If you can't due to personal connection...that's cool.

I'm posting this here because he supports these state laws.

I was considering checking out John Kasich - - not anymore.

GET OVER IT! Really?

“What I would like to say is just relax, and if you don’t like what somebody’s doing, pray for them, and if you’re feeling like somebody is doing something wrong against you, can you just for a second get over it?”

www.advocate.com...

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
I may have missed it, but im interested in Freija's take on this:

If a person believes they are disabled and actually are not (body integrity identity disorder), should society observe them as being disabled? Meaning, would they then qualify for disability and handicapped parking, etc?

Thank you, BFFT for soliciting and hearing my opinion. I really have no emotional connection or investment at this point with this other than my fervor that transgender children are loved, supported and cared for in a respectful and affirming way because I know what happens when they are not.

My first reaction to you is defensive because you are conflating being transgender or transsexual with being disabled or having BIID. I know it is easy for people to conceptualize this whole trans business as something similar to BIID but it is not nor is it considered to be the same thing by the APA. Rather than reply defensively, I'll just ramble on and maybe you can find a gem of insight, answers to your questions of inspiration for more thorough discussion?

Many transgender people do not experience dysphoria or discomfort with their body or seek hormones or surgery but rather feel an overwhelming sense of being one gender but perceived socially and by others as the opposite which can be the source of conflict and distress.

As the man that you know yourself to be, how would you feel if everyone around you and the whole world only saw or thought of you as a woman? Would you not to want make whatever changes to your appearance, manner, social persona or your body so that others experienced you as you experience yourself? With who you know yourself to be, can you think of any outside influence, drug or therapy that could convince you that you aren't you, change your core personality or your sense of being a man? Aren't you the best and ultimate authority of what you know yourself to be or is it up to someone else to make that decision for you?

Back to the BIID thing for a minute, if we specifically talk about those that undergo SRS or those who's sense of gender and anatomy incongruence is severe enough to seek surgical resolution, one perspective to consider is that they aren't looking to take something functional like an arm or leg and make it something non-functional as would be the case with an amputation. Having SRS, for those that do, is not so much wanting to get rid of body parts but to have the body parts that match their gender and who they are as people to themselves and to others and to be complete as one whole thing. Sex reassignment surgery is not the loss of parts, it is the gaining of the others more appropriate to the person.

I also think it would be quite offensive to trans people to be considered "disabled" or ill but they might not mind special parking privileges anyway! Disadvanted? Yeah maybe that but is that due to lack of societal acceptance, bigotry, internalized shame or transphobia or what? Perhaps all this uproar from the transgender communities is to de-stigmatize it because like homosexuality, it is simply a naturally occurring variance in the human condition albeit rather rare. It is unusual, foreign and weird to us because in the past it was hidden away, hushed up and erased from history and (our) culture but there has always been trans and gender non-conforming people and now there's just a lot more people. It is a part of our species. As recently as the early 1960's, transgender people were institutionalized, medicated and given electro-convulsive shock therapy to change or fix them. Look into April Ashley's story. Much like what is now considered unethical and illegal in many states, reparative conversion therapy and/or trying to pray it away has also been tried and all proven to be equally ineffective because a person's sense of identity as a person is formed around their sense of what gender they are and when it comes to changing someone's identity or personality, that's pretty tough because those are formed in early childhood.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this as more openness and awareness of it all can only be a good thing. Please continue with your questions or perspectives on things and I will do my best to respond in a helpful and friendly manner. This is something to be naturally curious about and want to understand if you are an intelligent and open-minded person then there is no harm in pursuing that curiosity if done in a polite and respective manner.

originally posted by: network dude
I am sorry, I missed that while engaged in another conversation. I read the article and it goes right along with my thinking. This person, before HB2 and most importantly, before the Charlotte Law was enacted, somehow got by going the restroom of his/her choosing. I don't know, but perhaps when he/she was wearing a dress they went to the ladies room, and when they were in jeans and a t-shirt the went to the men's. I don't know. But what I do know is, somehow, they were able to get by, and relive themselves without exploding.

So, now that Charlotte had to introduce a bill making a big deal out of this very small deal, it became a huge point of contention.

If you read the article, he/she mentions that they willingly moved to Charlotte knowing it was the heart of the Bible belt. This kind of mentality where a tiny minority expects, no demands that others adapt to comfort them is where I see the problem. Change will happen, but here, it will happen a bit slower than other places. It's the culture that has been here for generations. If progressive constant change is what you want, there are places that work like that, why not move there?

I understand the mindset of the people here. They don't want people from the north moving down here and telling them how wrong they are doing everything. They are happy to invite you to eat at the Sunday Dinner, just don't bitch about the biscuits. (that's a wide generalization of how I see life here)

This, right here, hits to the real heart of this issue. This person moved to a place, knowing that they wouldn't fit in, and then wants to pretend that the people there aren't tolerant, when the truth is, the person themselves is the one being intolerant.

It's intolerant to demand that people change their beliefs to suit your choices. It's intolerant to move someplace and demand that place change to suit the person arriving, when most living there are not in agreement.

The repeated, and somehow tolerated, slurs against people with religious beliefs, right here in this thread, are intolerant. Someone deciding, or having their brain, or whatever, decide they aren't the sex they were born, we are all supposed to accept, but someone having religious beliefs, we should not accept?

The hypocrisy is astounding, truly.

As for my opinion, NC did the right thing here. They are a sovereign state, as well, and thus have every right to decide things based on what the majority of people there want. Most want people to use a bathroom that suits their plumbing. Makes sense to me. S&F for the thread, too.

a reply to: Freija

Im not equating trans people with disability. Only exploring the legal implications of what is happening today by exploring parallels.

Since transgendered people typically would fall under the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria.

I think it is a shame that we cannot speak of this in the context of mental illness. For one, mental illness still carries a stigma that is insulting. But beyond that, it is a misunderstanding of what psychology is seeking to achieve: a well adjusted happy person. Having a diagnosis of "Gender Dysphoria" doesn't mean you are ill. It means you don't like the gender you were assigned with (oversimplified). Treatments can range from counseling to medications to surgical interventions (reassignment).

So, with that being said....i would like to compare the notion of Gender Dysphoric patients seeking to amend legal designations,a nd BIID patients potentially using this to do the same. All the emotion aside, its possible that the courts will have to sort it all out at some point. And it might help provide a little clarity today, as it helps provide for a logical test.

But, on a side point....would it be offensive if the bathroom thing was worked out using ADA as the reason? That Gender Dysphoria creates a situations where a business would be reasonably expected to accomodate their "illness"?