Video of 1,400 More Americans Losing Their Jobs to Mexico- Sickening.

a reply to: jefwane

Hey... Now look, I love democracy, so I am not about to try and influence your vote or anyone else's, and if that's how I am coming across here, then I truly apologise.

I just want to be clear about the reasoning behind the choice. You are under no obligation to illuminate that for me, it's a request I make of you, knowing that in some circles, it could be considered impertinent. I also know that asking you to explain why you believe a man who has a vested interest in keeping the power in the hands of the few, due to his business relying on the very things he attests to despising, could be considered somewhat confrontational, and that is not what I am going for either.

I respect the fact that you have a choice, and indeed that you will not be avoiding voting at all. It's a hard call to make between a turd sandwich and a crap baguette after all, but all I really want to understand is how it is that a person who is so blatantly part of the problem, could be said to personify the problem, can ever be a part of its solution.

If it's a crap shoot, and he's a Hail Mary, then fair enough. I really appreciate your participation on this, the perspective you come from on the issue.

a reply to: TrueBrit

A Hail Mary isn't a perfect analogy to my reasoning but it's good enough.

I know what kind of President both Clinton and Bush would be because I've spent equal parts of my life with a first order relative of theirs at the top of my Chain of Command.

I can do simple math and realize that what Sanders proposes is totally unaffordable with out crippling taxes at all income levels.

I could have easily voted for Rand Paul, but I'm happy that he dropped out early so I don't have to choose between him and others with a better chance to win.

Of those remaining on the GOP side, with the exception of Bush, I could vote for any of them against Hillary, but that doesn't mean I have to support them in the primary.

To me the choices I see at the moment are:
Hillary and any of the GOP candidates except Trump represent the way things are currently and the slow road to Hell.
Sanders and his radical plans for spending money is the fast road to Hell.
Trump could go either way or a different, but he's focused on two of my three issues and will have to at least attempt to follow up the big talk with actions if elected. Trade and Immigration are the two he's talked about extensively and the third (cost of medical services in the US) he's talked a little about.

It says something about the current leadership in the US as well as the media, that I'm much more willing to cast my vote with the unknown and possibly unpredictable than a traditional candidate with either party.

In short I'm pissed off at the way things are, and currently Trump is the only one running for office, that shares enough of my concerns, and that offers the possibility of meaningful change, that I feel will be beneficial to me and my children's future. I'm much more comfortable with the unknowns in what Trump will do and say as President than I am with any of the others that will simply be more of the same crap that has brought us to the point we are at today.

If you'd have told me 10, 5, or hell even a year ago I'd be supporting Trump for POTUS in 2016. I would have accused you of being delusional or high on crack.

a reply to: jefwane

I really appreciate that summary.

I think I understand where you are coming from an awful lot better now, and I have to say, for what it's worth, that yours is the only half way reasonable explanation for a Trump vote, that I have heard so far during the entire discussion, not just in this thread, but more generally too.

Also, you have to laugh at that "I would have thought you were on crack" line, but you must be furious that things have reached this point in your nations politics, surely?

a reply to: TrueBrit

The last line was meant to be a bit of comedic relief after some quick serious thought.

Furious, absolutely.

I live in an area in the South, that when I was a child and teen, whose main industry was textile manufacturing. There were good companies to work for as well as bad in that industry. If you stayed employed at one of the crappy ones for a few months and learned a skill or how to operate a machine you could easily move to one of the better ones. The pay even at the good ones wasn't anything special, but there was profit sharing and bonuses that someone who lived at their means and saved some money could afford a middle class lifestyle complete with helping the kids pay for college and saving money for retirement. NAFTA unceremoniously killed that industry in the US, and it nearly killed my hometown. We were lucky in that the State of Georgia was able to bribe with tax abatements and other perks, a foreign car manufacturer to open up a large plant right as the last of the textile plants were downsizing to their current size. Ross Perot warned of exactly this in his '92 run for President. NAFTA was a bipartisan effort.

I understand that immigration and the ability of the culture to assimilate immigrants is as American as Baseball and Apple Pie. However, we've allowed it irresponsibly for decades now and in my opinion have been so irresponsible in enforcement that we have failed to properly assimilate many recent arrivals. Both parties have failed on all fronts in controlling and assimilating immigrants over the past 20 years at least. Business interests only cared about cheap labor, and social interests pushed multiculturalism as opposed to assimilation. I'd like to see some level of a halt to it at least for a few years so we can have a reasonable plan to bring these recent arrivals into the melting pot.

I like free markets, but prefer fair trade to free trade. You'll not hear me complain about imported products or competition from Canada, Australia, UK, New Zealand, Western Europe, or Japan. They share a standard of living and regulatory environment comparable to our own.

I like the concept of Capitalism and the ability to take risks in a free market like Wall Street, but I hate the influence it has on our body politic. Banksters got away with ALOT during the last credit bubble pop, and didn't just avoid prosecution but were bailed out on the public's money. This also was bipartisan as it happened at the end of Bush 2 and the beginning of Obama administration with continued insult like fining but not prosecuting banks that engaged in practices as nefarious as laundering money for cartels.

Given the choices in front of me, I prefer someone who has had to deal with these banksters as a client, and has demonstrably legally stiffed them through the use of legal means to someone complicit in bailing them out and later going to them hat in hand to fund their next campaign.

I appreciate the conversation truebrit, you are one of the regular members I respect even when I disagree.

a reply to: jefwane

The banking fiasco, and the NAFTA issue... I have to say, between the two, and coming on the back of one another in historical terms, as quickly as they did, those things made a sorry mess of things on an awful lot of fronts.

Where the banking fiasco is concerned, I generally refer to it as economic terrorism. When banks flush funds down the drain, and then get paid out by government to do it, the government essentially pays the banks to flush lives and jobs down the toilet, not to mention make a whole heap of innocent people homeless.

There are still, as far as I have been able to ascertain from the web, people living in whole cities of tents and ramshackle, unofficial, off grid communities, who simply had no choice what with one thing and another, and have been unable to shake off the weights which dragged them there. It frustrates me that when I heard politicians talking about the situation, and newsreaders delivering the facts to people about that situation, the tendency was to refer to those people in cold terms, numbers, demography, how many children, how many adults, and some had the gaul to suggest that their current accommodations might have to be moved on, because of zoning of all things. Madness.

Meanwhile, bankers who pulled the pin to (sub) prime their weapon of mass disenfranchisement, suffered...nothing really. Bonus lost there, demotion here, fines for this bank, CEO resigns of that one, no one really gets punished, they just shuffled off to wherever they kept their money, and had some cocktails or what have you. Slap a little white ball around a fairway for a while, forget the world...

Meanwhile, real people suffer. Not the numbers, not their demographics, but individuals who, up until their worlds fell apart, had dreams that they had a right to chase, ideas they had a right to develop. I imagine that after seeing that, the thought must occur that any craziness has to be better than that craziness.

On another matter entirely, it is very nice to converse upon this topic, without the normal noise perturbing the signal. I feel that more learning has been done on my part during this conversation, than I have had the pleasure of experiencing in any other conversation covering similar topics. I very much hope that we come across one another on the boards again soon sir, because it has been such a positive experience to discuss this subject with you!

They're not losing their jobs.
The company they're working for is innovating its international
standing in order to remain competitive with companies that have
already sent their companies overseas.
If those workers want to remain competitive they need to understand
that borders mean nothing to companies and it's only another control
structure. In the same way people from other countries come here for
job opportunities maybe it's time we started going to other countries as well
for the same. Americans are the only people that expect others coming here
to know their language and when traveling for others in their countries to know it too.

a reply to: unicornholiday

Move to any country in the world and not speak their language and see how far it gets you.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Likewise, truly enjoyed the conversation.

I'm no newby here, and I go through phases of being more active than at other times. I do tend to be more verbose during events, like an election cycle. I was especially active during the 08-09 financial crises. ATS is however one of my daily web visits, and whether I'm posting or not, I'm reading threads that interest me almost daily.

I feel honored that our conversation has led you to a better understanding of the political climate in the US.

I'm an Independent politically, but to be honest I've voted more GOP than not with the exception of local Democrats that I personally know for the past decade or so. There used to be a conservative part of the Democratic party known as Southern Democrats that have largely became Republicans over the past 20 years.

I personally am quite a bit surprised at the people willing to vote for Trump this cycle. I know black men who've never voted Republican in their life supporting Trump,union members who maybe voted for Reagan but haven't voted for GOP since, and people who are so pissed off at the way things are they will take anything different. I'd tell anyone in the GOP establishment or media who cannot understand the level of support Trump has, to look at where we are and then look in the mirror, there you will find the answer.

a reply to: onequestion

Isn't this what all americans want though? Competitive lower prices?
I don't see it as people losing their jobs I see it as lower prices for their services for
all of us. You're included in that - I want you to be able to find the things you want
for the best possible price while maintaining quality.
That's why those managers insisted that although they would be phased out their quality
should not suffer. It's the american way.
I think we all win in this arrangement.
Those in Mexico will no longer have to come here seeking jobs as we are taking the jobs to them.

a reply to: DexterRiley

So we just taxes them more and show those Da@@ 1% what we think...

Um of course that just make more of them move, but we will feel better....right?

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: TrueAmerican

What do you expect them to do when they can move to Mexico and not have to deal with unions and other hassles that our Government inflicts on companies. The problem is the more you regulate and tax 'the rich' the more they will flee the country for less authoritarian governments.

Your betting a dead horse. The rich MUST PAY. that is the only thing people will hear.

a reply to: DexterRiley

We have some of the highest wages in the world.
We live btter then most the people in the world.
We complain about not having more then anybody in the world.


I agree with you.
Why do you need a IPhone 7? doesn't the IPhone 5 you already have answer calls just fine?
Why do you need a 65" LED TV? Can you see the 50" one you have on the wall already?
Why do you need the new 2016 Dodge... Does you 2013 one not work any more?

It took me some years, but I learned I DONT NEED these thing. Sure I would like to have them, but why go in debt to get them? As you say everybody blames the "greedy" rich people, but they still want to buy the stuff they sell. So where does that leave us?

a reply to: TrueBrit
s
Because most end consumer are idiots. We teach them to buy the lowest priced item instead of the best value item.

Not the same thing.

Or we teach them to buy the "most" for their money. The thing with the most gizmos and lights. Even if you will never use some of these feature after the first couple of months of novelty wears off.


I hear the I Phone 7 will be coming out. Bet the lines will be around the block to buy a phone is a Iphone 5 with a new button on it. As I said consumers are idiots.

originally posted by: poncho1982

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: TrueAmerican

What do you expect them to do when they can move to Mexico and not have to deal with unions and other hassles that our Government inflicts on companies. The problem is the more you regulate and tax 'the rich' the more they will flee the country for less authoritarian governments.

BINGO!!

Hit nail on head, Daniel-son.

$20 - $21 AN HOUR TO BUILD FURNACES? Seriously??

No wonder they are leaving. Those wages are too high for that kind of work. Paramedics don't even make that, and they save lives!

Well it does if you think about the fact that they want buger flippers to make $15.

a reply to: dismanrc

Can either of you run and fix the machines on your own without direction?

Just curious...

How about a printing press... Could you easily run a 9 color flexo press and print a quality product?

Can you machine parts and fix things mechanically on your own with no education and no direction?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: dismanrc

Can either of you run and fix the machines on your own without direction?

Just curious...

How about a printing press... Could you easily run a 9 color flexo press and print a quality product?

Can you machine parts and fix things mechanically on your own with no education and no direction?

Were these the skills you were taught in jail?
Just curious as those are specific machines you ask on and i'm just assuming you know
how to run a print machine. If I sound insensitive I apologize.
Also what does that have to do with iphones and hvacs and mcdonald wages?
Let's sing kumbaya while that wall you want up is built as we toast to trump.

a reply to: unicornholiday

They don't teach anything in jail, that's prison, thanks.

I'm questioning those who criticize the skill level of many manufacturing employees.

That was pretty obvious.

Nice try on the personal attack spin to try and discredit anything I say.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: dismanrc

Can either of you run and fix the machines on your own without direction?

Just curious...

How about a printing press... Could you easily run a 9 color flexo press and print a quality product?

Can you machine parts and fix things mechanically on your own with no education and no direction?

I work in a trade, in a type of machining, where you work in MICRONS. A human hair is about 36 microns across to give you some idea of the precision. I do have some college, but this is a field you learn over many years of training and experience. In my particular case, the office people in my outfit think that many of the experienced skilled technicians are "overpaid" and because they dont have a degree they are somehow second class or stupid. And these people who are making that statement don't have a CLUE what we are doing and how much skill it truly takes. A lot of the "suits" think workers are a dime a dozen and devalue their talent because of that. I believe that managers and office people are the ones who are overpaid and they are much easier to replace than someone who has taken many years in a lot of cases to learn their skill. But they think their 4 years of college and being a little book smart trumps someone with decades of experience making things. Thats a MAJOR part of whats wrong in this country. Only certain types of work are respected.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: unicornholiday

They don't teach anything in jail, that's prison, thanks.

I'm questioning those who criticize the skill level of many manufacturing employees.

That was pretty obvious.

Nice try on the personal attack spin to try and discredit anything I say.

Stop projecting. I was not trying to attack you it was a legitimate question. I know many skills can be learned while imprisoned. I do not think anyone knew what you were referring to. Again i'm sorry in advance if this in any way comes off as insensitive. I asked you a real question and you became defensive. I have no interest in discrediting you - I don't know you and having been in jail doesn't make you less of a person to me.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: dismanrc

Can either of you run and fix the machines on your own without direction?

Just curious...

How about a printing press... Could you easily run a 9 color flexo press and print a quality product?

Can you machine parts and fix things mechanically on your own with no education and no direction?

The first and the last Yes I could.

The printing press I could probably figure out after looking at it awhile. But Then again I'm good with figuring things out and doing mechanical type stuff.


But I think my comment was taken in the wrong way. i DONT THINK a burger flipper should be paid $15/ hr. for the very reason you point out. Because IF he is that means skilled labour would be required to be paid 2-3 times that. Thats the point.