EU shock as 'out' vote sweeps 6% ahead!

originally posted by: moonrunner
I know of no one who will be voting to leave come the referendum, no one.
Isolation will save us mentality, they should go find an island with the Scottish independence crowd.

Let me guess Yorkshire like bowing down to there overlords and masters in the EU?


If we were not in the EU we might have been able to save the steel and coal inustrys up north.

a reply to: moonrunner

I don't think they're talking isolationism. Many are seeing more disadvantages than advantages, others just the opposite.

If membership is causing more issues than it's resolving, perhaps the wisest course is to remove from it?

That is what the referendum is all about, isn't it?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: ForteanOrg
Plenty of business leaders disagree with your opinions on how the UK will survive after an 'out' vote. Your unsubstantiated opinions

Are they? 85 percent of manufacturers want to stay in..

certainly do not influence how I shall be voting, and I look forward to the challenges of rebuilding a sovereign nation outside of any European political union. I hope the majority think the same as I do.

Sovereign nation.. that's a concept of the past, alas. You are not free to decide a lot of things, not even as an individual, let alone as a nation - unless you do what sovereign nations always did: try to do as much as possible on your own soil and with your own resources - but if that fails, simply go to war and take what you think you need.

But let reason never stand in the way of primitive notions of "sovereignity"..

originally posted by: crazyewokIf we were not in the EU we might have been able to save the steel and coal inustrys up north.

Sure. Nuclear power plants never happened in the UK, of course. But okay, let's have it your way and turn the UK into the most polluted island in the world. Real British Soot, proud to be a Brit, ladida and all that

a reply to: crazyewok

Haha...okay bendy fruit and light bulbs. I am not saying that vast sums of money are not wasted on ill thought out schemes but that is hardly the sole domain of error of the EU, and as we will find out should the vote go for out, that nor can the EU be blamed for all the instances where our own government and representatives have insisted on following these legislations blindly rather than questioning their validity.

Having worked in seed production however, for a scientific study, the restrictions on seed are important, both in terms of quality control and in avoiding the introduction of invasive species to fragile ecologies. The UK government is operating totally counter productively in addressing sustainable futures, and as I said to my Mum, yes your vacuum cleaner is too powerful and wasteful, and ideally you should get a more efficient one, but not until it is in need of replacement because to do otherwise is equally wasteful. I am not saying that the UK is worse or better than the EU, or that the EU gets it right and without them we'd be nothing, but I believe that the dynamic that membership provides, if we had some representatives in there with back bone and bite would be beneficial.

I am, as they say, open to persausion, but the business angle alone, and Boris, is insufficient persausion. How easy it is to leave and if it doesn't work out, go back, I don't know, but since we have never been all in, and really have been slapped around and sidelined as a consequence of that, it is difficult to compare. That the EU nannies is not isolated, all over the boards, we in the West complain about nannying, EU or otherwise. There are stupid people, lots of them, who do need to be told how to think and what to do, and if they are not and do it, who will sue, hence why I get a small novel when I buy a new applicance detailing every possible reason why my warranty will be void if I pour coca cola on it. I don't like being nannied, but recognise that I am not representative of everyone.

I don't know...but I do know that Boris and the Daily Mail are not who I want to speak for me.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Emotion affects both the in and the out camps. It's not exclusive to one side or the other.

originally posted by: Anaana
There are stupid people, lots of them, who do need to be told how to think and what to do

And on that we will always be at a impasse politically.

Stupid people should be left to do stupid things and live with their own stupid actions.

We should not be nanny them, instead reducing the amount they can sue instead.

And Boris does not speak for me. I have said I don’t exactly likely him. But I recognise he is a smart person and he is a expert in the field of business.

originally posted by: crazyewok
If we were not in the EU we might have been able to save the steel and coal inustrys up north.

I don't think we can blame the EU for Thatcher, can we?

It’s that under the prime minister’s guidance, MI5, police Special Branch, GCHQ and the NSA were mobilised not only to spy on the NUM on an industrial scale, but to employ agents provocateurs at the highest level of the union, dirty tricks, slush funds, false allegations, forgeries, phoney cash deposits and multiple secretly sponsored legal actions to break the defence of the mining communities.

In the years since, Thatcher and her former ministers and intelligence mandarins have defended such covert action by insisting the NUM leaders were “subversive” because they wanted to bring down the government. Which of course they did – but “legitimately”, as Scargill remarked recently, by bringing about a general election – as took place in the wake of the successful coal strike of 1974.

www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Real British Soot, proud to be a Brit, ladida and all that

Most of our power is generated through gas power stations , coal makes up just 28% with those coal power stations either closing or changing to Biomass , Nuclear accounts for just 7% of electricity generated here.
Britain is one of the leading players in reducing carbon emissions and ensuring air quality so no British soot anymore.

a reply to: Anaana

For every joke about bendy bananas, there's the very real threats like the annual type approval rubbish aimed at motorcycles which will kill the custom bike industry and pattern parts manufacturers.
Each year it gets defeated and then the same unelected ministers bring it up the next.

Then you have such things as the EU constitution amendments putting criticism of the EU and council beyond the protection of free speech the other year.

Only recently, the EU passed a ban on coastal bass fishing.
This is aimed at pleasure angling and small charter boats. The big trawlers who catch the majority of bass are still free to do so.
I mean, really, what is the bloody point?

originally posted by: crazyewok
We should not be nanny them, instead reducing the amount they can sue instead.

Agreed, however within the unavoidable caveat that children should not be punished for their parent's mistakes. Children should be protected from the stupidity of the adults that nature has seemed fit to bestow upon them.

originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: crazyewok
If we were not in the EU we might have been able to save the steel and coal inustrys up north.

I don't think we can blame the EU for Thatcher, can we?

It’s that under the prime minister’s guidance, MI5, police Special Branch, GCHQ and the NSA were mobilised not only to spy on the NUM on an industrial scale, but to employ agents provocateurs at the highest level of the union, dirty tricks, slush funds, false allegations, forgeries, phoney cash deposits and multiple secretly sponsored legal actions to break the defence of the mining communities.

In the years since, Thatcher and her former ministers and intelligence mandarins have defended such covert action by insisting the NUM leaders were “subversive” because they wanted to bring down the government. Which of course they did – but “legitimately”, as Scargill remarked recently, by bringing about a general election – as took place in the wake of the successful coal strike of 1974.

www.theguardian.com...

Thatcher’s reign is long gone. And the witch is dead.

We have had Major, Blair, Brown and Camron since and they could have reversed it at any time.

originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: crazyewok
We should not be nanny them, instead reducing the amount they can sue instead.

Agreed, however within the unavoidable caveat that children should not be punished for their parent's mistakes. Children should be protected from the stupidity of the adults that nature has seemed fit to bestow upon them.

Now the think of the children excuse......


Sorry doesnt wash with me.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Anaana

For every joke about bendy bananas, there's the very real threats like the annual type approval rubbish aimed at motorcycles which will kill the custom bike industry and pattern parts manufacturers.
Each year it gets defeated and then the same unelected ministers bring it up the next.

Then you have such things as the EU constitution amendments putting criticism of the EU and council beyond the protection of free speech the other year.

Only recently, the EU passed a ban on coastal bass fishing.
This is aimed at pleasure angling and small charter boats. The big trawlers who catch the majority of bass are still free to do so.

I mean, really, what is the bloody point?

But...aren't these issues that are effecting all members, not just us in the UK? I agree that there is no bloody point if the distribution of benefits remain with those already empowered, or for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many...however, I also see options of utilising the EU structure from lower down the food chain to enact change that is more widely beneficial, though perhaps less directly. The point is, for me, not simply understanding that the EU may not be working for us as well as it may be for others, but at understanding why it is not working the way it was intended to, if indeed it is, and then what does it need to work better. Clearly however sustainability, and climate change, in relation to food sources, does need urgent and concerted action, food security and fuel security are currently very tightly interlinked, priority wise, but this should not be used as an opportunity for some to grasp those resources for personal gain rather than conservation, or the collective future need.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Thatcher’s reign is long gone. And the witch is dead.

We have had Major, Blair, Brown and Camron since and they could have reversed it at any time.

Once you give the security forces those powers it is difficult for those succeeding you to even know that the security forces have those powers.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Now the think of the children excuse......


Sorry doesnt wash with me.

It may not wash with you, but that is what many consider "civilisation"...now believe me, I am raring, ready and willing to take it all the way back to the caves, but sadly, I have had to accept that I am not the "moral majority".

a reply to: Anaana

...and so you should. I live here, and I have issues with both.

But your seeming willingness to trust the Russian Empire (I know that technically they aren't an Empire...but Vlad "I think I'm Great" thinks they should be...) is something I think you ought to, well, rethink.

But, hey, it's your decision, along with all your countryfolk (PC, baby...), to make. But like any good snoopy neighbor (hey, what's a few thousand miles between friends?), I'm always ready to give my opinion/advice...whether wanted or no.

a reply to: Anaana

That point about it not working for us as well as others is central to the referendum.

Too often the people in the UK are the ones who have to give up stuff so that someone else can get more.

Why on earth would anyone consistently support a system that makes their life worse?

Whether it's border controls or rules affecting your small business or the amount of money collected from tax payers that gets sent abroad, some of us want an end to it and want our government accountable to us and not able to get away without making a difficult decision because of EU rules.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ForteanOrgMost of our power is generated through gas power stations , coal makes up just 28% with those coal power stations either closing or changing to Biomass , Nuclear accounts for just 7% of electricity generated here. Britain is one of the leading players in reducing carbon emissions and ensuring air quality so no British soot anymore.

Exactly my point

a reply to: ForteanOrg
I said plenty of business leaders, you focused on a manufacturing industry poll, don't act like the majority of business leaders agree with you.
The jury is still out with opposing views yet you spout yours as fact.
At least I have the honesty to present my position as opinion.

*Edit*
You haven't got the vote though thankfully, and that pleases me.