EU shock as 'out' vote sweeps 6% ahead!

Anyone else received the 'Europe and You' leaflet?

What a disgrace it is. Remarkably Project Fear has really outdone themselves this time.

All their arguments are linked to continued trade with the EU, something which we would still have if we Leave the EU anyway, so it's a non-argument.

Their other argument is that we are safer in Europe because of the European Arrest Warrant. This is not only wrong, it's the opposite to reality. It is more dangerous being an EU member due to open borders and schengen, allowing terrorists with their guns and bombs to travel freely throughout Europe, just like what happened in Paris for example.

Now the latest EUphile claim is that four in five business leaders want to stay in. I must say how naive this is and I would like to debunk this right now. Firstly that survey has a base size of 102 respondents. Not only that, these 102 respondents are executive board-level directors and chairmen of the biggest UK companies. They don't give a damn about us, all they care about is continued cheap labour and bigger profits.

a reply to: 83Liberty
I will just burn it.

Nothing anyone can say will make me stay in the EU unless:

1) The EU goes back to a sole Economic trading alliance with no political aspect.

2) The Brussels bureaucracy and every undemocratic aspect purged. Not just talk and "promise" of reform but actual REAL action taken between now and the referendum.

3) Repeal of the schengen agreement.

All 3 have to be meet before I would vote in. Any less and I am out.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: ForteanOrg

The British are not thick. They appreciate and understand the benefits of the EU as an economic market and general force for good. I myself am a Europhile and (mostly) like what I see. The discontent is the profound lack of democratic process in the march towards a federal state, where the soverign nation is second place.

I think that the UK is bold in taking forward a referendum to check the public mood. Pity other European nations don't think that it's time to check their respective populations, becuase I think there is similar discontent and cynisism growing across Europe and the politicians and Eurocrats are keen to turn a blind eye.

The EU went wrong when it went from a Economic partership to political.

Only way I will vote in is if it goes back to a Economic partership. There is no future for me in a politcal union.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
All their arguments are linked to continued trade with the EU, something which we would still have if we Leave the EU anyway, so it's a non-argument.

The 'world' for trading is much bigger than just the EU LOL!!

Also if we have the right goods at the right price that other EU countries

want will they not trade??

Trade doesn't need a broker if you have the right goods at the right price?

Their other argument is that we are safer in Europe because of the European Arrest Warrant. This is not only wrong, it's the opposite to reality. It is more dangerous being an EU member due to open borders and schengen, allowing terrorists with their guns and bombs to travel freely throughout Europe, just like what happened in Paris for example.

You've left out the increase of the recent sex assaults in the Netherlands

Germany and Sweden .....

We are not safer if we cannot control our own borders, and now that Merkel

has *bitten off more than she can chew* with her generous invitation, she is

wanting to distribute the surplus to other EU countries!! Weather they like

it or not.

Now the latest EUphile claim is that four in five business leaders want to stay in. I must say how naive this is and I would like to debunk this right now. Firstly that survey has a base size of 102 respondents. Not only that, these 102 respondents are executive board-level directors and chairmen of the biggest UK companies. They don't give a damn about us, all they care about is continued cheap labour and bigger profits.

*Claim* is precisely what it is!! Back it up with actual names of these

business leaders.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: 83Liberty
I will just burn it.

Nothing anyone can say will make me stay in the EU unless:

1) The EU goes back to a sole Economic trading alliance with no political aspect.

2) The Brussels bureaucracy and every undemocratic aspect purged. Not just talk and "promise" of reform but actual REAL action taken between now and the referendum.

3) Repeal of the schengen agreement.

All 3 have to be meet before I would vote in. Any less and I am out.

Trouble is that there is nothing to stop them from making any concessions

NOW and reneging on them LATER

a reply to: crazyewok

If we were not in the EU we might have been able to save the steel and coal inustrys up north.

Really?

The only reason they were shut down was due to the Tories and their domestic policies.

As much as I dislike the corrupt EU they can't be blamed for that.

a reply to: Freeborn

Margrethe Vestager, EU competition commissioner said "Brussels' state aid rules do not allow government funds to rescue or restructure failing plants".

www.telegraph.co.uk...

The EU isn't the main cause of what is happening to our steel industry but it is apparently stopping our government from helping/bailing out the British steel industry.

a reply to: 83Liberty

Of course EU rules prohibited any rescue package the British government may have considered.
But have they considered any sort of intervention or rescue package for manufacturing / engineering or any other blue collar industry since the advent of Thatcherism?

Do you honestly believe Cameron would have even considered getting involved?
Its the exact opposite of his core beliefs.

And the coal industry was specifically mentioned.
That was well and truly #ed over by Thatcher well before the EU had the level of control it now has over UK matters.

Now if it had been the banks or any financial institution it would be a completely different matter altogether.....but I guess this is a discussion best left for another time and place.

The referendum will mean different things to different people. For instance, a business man will see the referendum as a business issue, but for the common man and woman, the issue that the referendum presents to them is really quite simplistic...do they want their country to be sovereign and self-determining? There is nothing more important than that question which is hidden behind the actual referendum question of "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?"

The British people were never asked if they wanted to give up political sovereignty, it was just given away for business expedience, which is why they are now being asked to give voice to something they were never given an entitlement to voice. If they think we are now so used to the EU, so habituated to it that we will all simply turn up on the day and give our definitive and final rubber-stamp to the complete throwaway of our country, they are so disastrously wrong!

Britain has no choice but to opt out of the EU. Britons loathe the idea of handing over their sovereignty and self-determination to unelected bureaucrats in another country and becoming nothing more than an off-shore corner of some superstate. Leaving the EU will bring about both good and bad consequences, but any loss of services that are currently found in EU states, will spring up in Britain. Britain will get to set its own financial regulatory services, it will reset its own industry rules and regulations, it will not have to pay into the EU budget, and it will control its own borders. Industry will have to turn to Britain's own work force and unemployed. There will be some hardship, but it won't be something we can't handle. Yet, in the end, all this is incidental to the real question the referendum raises.

Do you want to be a piece of some superstate, or do you want to be your own country, with its own sovereignty and self-determination? Personally, I think it is a no brainer...vote out, and take back Britain.

originally posted by: elysiumfireBritain has no choice but to opt out of the EU.

If that were true, you'd hardly need a referendum. The other choice is "remain in the EU".

Britons loathe the idea

Propaganda. Some may loathe, some may not agree with, some may somewhat agree with, some may love.

of handing over their sovereignty and self-determination to unelected bureaucrats in another country

Bull. You have had the exact same EP elections we all had.

and becoming nothing more than an off-shore corner of some superstate.

Might you vote out, you would be an off-shore corner, period.

As a Dutchman I'm very aware of the need to cooperate with other nations. Your entire notion of "sovereignty" is a thing of the past: no nation, nowhere, can be really "sovereign" - unless of course, you would love the UK to turn into some kind of North Korea.

Leaving the EU will bring about both good and bad consequences,

I think anybody can see the bad consequences: loss of income, loss of influence, no cheap access to the largest market in the world, internal unrest (Scotland, for example). And you would not be any more sovereign that you are now: your national parliament has always been in control, free to say "no" to anything they did not like, and that's not going to change. Nobody took anything away from the 'Britons'; their parliament choose to invest - but only if they were reasonably sure of a very wealthy return. Which you had (and have).

I am constantly flabbergasted how it is that you are so full of British braggadocio while on the other hand you despise of the decisions of your very own parliament. The parliament won't go away if you leave the EU.

but any loss of services that are currently found in EU states, will spring up in Britain.

Hey, there's probably a REASON that the services are not on British soil anymore. Probably your business people found out that other nations can actually produce against a lower price and/or with better quality. Also, perhaps it's slightly impossible to access certain necessary resources if your "on your own", say .. natural gas. So, it may happen that you will either have to pay a lot more for some service (as it is now run by Brits, they are expensive) or because we, Continentals, aren't "forced" by some silly EU treaty to sell to you what we have here at exceptionally good conditions.

Yes, we on the other had would have to pay a bit more for Stilton and Guinness - you would pay us significantly more for Heineken and our natural gas. Go, Britons, go!

There will be some hardship, but it won't be something we can't handle.

Your own governments have created far more hardship than the EU can ever create. You're targeting the wrong enemy.

Do you want to be a piece of some superstate, or do you want to be your own country, with its own sovereignty and self-determination? Personally, I think it is a no brainer...vote out, and take back Britain.

Which part of that "own country"? Scotland? England? Wales? Norther-Ireland?

It is indeed a no-brainer. Now, let's see how many "britons" prove to have a brain

a reply to: ForteanOrg


Britain is on track to overtake France and Germany to become

the biggest economy in Europe.

Britain is due to overtake France by 2018.

Relatively low taxes and independence from the ailing Eurozone

will make Briton the most successful economy in the west, after

the US over the next fifteen years!

In the same period Germany's growth will be hampered by a weak

euro an ageing population and the prospect of future Eurozone

bailouts


www.telegraph.co.uk...


The Eurozone is a fast failing concept.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

As a Dutchman I'm very aware of the need to cooperate with other nations. Your entire notion of "sovereignty" is a thing of the past: no nation, nowhere, can be really "sovereign" - unless of course, you would love the UK to turn into some kind of North Korea.

Or a successful nation like Japan, New Zeeland or Australia!

So BS on your NK hyperbole.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

I am constantly flabbergasted how it is that you are so full of British braggadocio while on the other hand you despise of the decisions of your very own parliament. The parliament won't go away if you leave the EU.

No but they are our Parliament made up of our own people from our own culture and back ground.

Rather be ruled by fools 40 miles away in Westminster that know the ins and outs of Britain than ruled by a bunch of Eurotards 200 miles away in Brussels that know little about the UK, culture and ideology’s because come from country’s with different backs grounds, history’s, cultures and ideologies.

a reply to: eletheia

You're a very selective quoter.

Now, THIS was also in that very same article:

Germany would perform much better, and may never be surpassed by Britain, were the eurozone to break-up and it were to return to the deutschmark, the CEBR noted.

Also, in as far as I understood the out-crowd in here, they are mostly opposed to immigration. But, from the very same article too:

A separate study released earlier this week by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research claimed Britain's economy could be 11 per cent smaller, and individual wages lower, by 2060 if net migration were halved from its current trend level of 200,000 a year.

Now, you may wonder why Germany is so keen on getting all those young, healthy men from the ME into their country. Re-read the quotes from your OWN source - and perhaps you slowly start to understand their reasoning.

BTW: I fully appreciate the impossibilities to predict anything that is still rather far away in the future - the world in 2060 might be run by automatrons, and we might all either be killed by them or be allowed to live in our green pastures carelessly, nobody knows. But one thing is sure: if the EU does not survive, Germany will come out as the strongest economy - and you will totally depend on them. If that is what you want. go ahead and vote "out"

a reply to: ForteanOrg


Merkel has been conned!... She thinks she is getting a subdued workforce?

She has been given the *Trojan Horse* All those virile lone young men is

no coincidence....

PREDICTION?? >>>>

One day millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the
Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends, but they will
conquer. And they will conquer it with their sons, the wombs of our
women will give us victory.

4freedoms.com...

CHILLING?? I wouldn't doubt they would use the wombs of the women

from the countries they intend occupying judging by what is currently going

on! softly, softly catchee monkey ......

a reply to: ForteanOrg

You crack me up.

You claim to be an Anarchist and that the concept of nationhood is a thing of the past yet you willingly submit to a centralised behemoth like the EU that seeks conformity and a level of control over the electorate that we have never seen before.
Any view that differs from the centralised government will not be tolerated.

Some Anarchist!

a reply to: eletheia

Fear, uncertainty and doubt are all you have to offer, alas.

Now, let's for a moment say you are right - we would be "swamped" with refugees, perhaps 10 million of them. What is the worst thing that might happen?

Well, Germans have actually made models of it check out this page to see their findings. In short: even if the short term influx of refugees may slow down the rate with which the German population will DECLINE - the population will decline.

IFF (and that's a big IFF) you want to keep the population at it's current level, taking in more refugees / migrants is important. It is even more important if you want to preserve an healthy mix of young and old; if the Germans would not take in refugees, in 2060 over half the population would be either too young to work or too old to work - but still alive.

Yes, the will influence the way Germans work and live. But the current German / EU culture will have a far more significant impact on the migrants that their culture will have on ours. In the end you'll end up with at best and at most say 80 million Germans in 2060, and yes, some of them (roughly 10-20 percent I guess) will be offspring of migrants. And speak German, dress like other Germans, and the mix will be quite beautiful I guess. Pity I probably won't be around then to see it!

The UK (64 million people) has similar problems and needs 200.000 migrants to come into the country each year to stabilize the population (which is actually a goal of your current government). But guess what: if the UK closes their borders, the Continent will simply keep the migrants to themselves, and in the end will have a strong, relatively young working population - and you will end up with a lot of very stiff upper lips, indeed

Go ahead, beat your agnostic drums and monger some more fear - you can't change the facts either. Unless you force your British mums to breed with the mates there and raise 10-12 children (which would make them totally unusable for anything else, as history taught us), your population will grow old too.

You don't have a choice, my friend. You have an illusion.

originally posted by: FreebornSome Anarchist!

Indeed.

You seem to confuse anarchists with chaotics - a common mistake of people that don't understand the concept of anarchism. Remember, and remember it well: anarchists are very much opposed to chaos, they fully realize the need for rules and laws - upheld by all, voluntarily.

It are the hierarchists, the ones that profit from the notion that one man is more than another, one nation is better than another, one clan is better than the next, whom try to create classes and set up wars - so they may profit from it. They don't hesitate to create chaos if need be, create and sustain wars. They even outlaw their own if need be, all using shallow lies, fed by fear uncertainty and doubt.

Your concepts have been twisted - deliberately.

In the end, all anarchists strive for a concept that scares the hell out of all hierarchists: a new world order. In the end, all people should be free, under the Law, upheld by all. Any sufficiently advanced society in indistinguishable from anarchy. And if anarchy is the best way to live, surely we won't need an empire, a nation or a state anymore - the entire planet will be one, a new world order indeed.

But you surely believe that the new world order is bad, don't you?

They fooled you too, I guess.

a reply to: ForteanOrg
Oh I wouldn't worry too much about a falling population in the event of a UK exit from the EU.

Plenty of people from all around the world are likely to apply for the new work visas' which would cover all skills, even labourers if we need them, you know like other non EU countries do things.

The key difference is the UK would control it. Perfectly achievable.
It is one of the reasons I am voting out, but I do appreciate the concern good sir.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: eletheiaAlso, in as far as I understood the out-crowd in here, they are mostly opposed to immigration. But, from the very same article too:
A separate study released earlier this week by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research claimed Britain's economy could be 11 per cent smaller, and individual wages lower, by 2060 if net migration were halved from its current trend level of 200,000 a year.

Firstly, if you read through this whole thread again, you will realise that immigration is not talked about much at all, and some people have even said they don't care about the immigration issue. Economics has been the main focus of this thread followed by democracy. So I'm not sure where you got the idea "as far as I understood the out-crowd in here, they are mostly opposed to immigration".

Secondly, we're are not "opposed to immigration". We want CONTROL of our borders, that is a massive difference, so go take your relentless BS elsewhere please. Even the article you have quoted has got it wrong (unless it's like 5 years out of date), because our current NET immigration is over 350,000 per year (more than the population of Coventry by the way) and it's increasing, so surely even the basic school kid can see that it is not sustainable.

a reply to: 83Liberty
It is strange how some folk equate wishing control over immigration with not wanting any immigration.

I'm happy with immigration that benefits the UK, and with control, a government is in a stronger position to see that it does benefit the country.
Plenty of EU nationals will still want to live and work here, they'll just need to be useful to the UK as the controls will require.

...and I imagine there will be fair transitional arrangements and exceptions for EU nationals already settled here.
It's certainly not doom or anti immigrant, it's simply about doing things like other non EU nations do.