Transgender woman Vicky Thompson, 21, found dead in all male prison.

a reply to: Deny Arrogance

Because He didn't, SHE Did...

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
Because that would imply a mental problem which may have manifest itself through gender confusion and they don't "like" the two being linked.

Take a look at THE GRAPH a little down the link's page.

Suicide seems pretty different for individuals with "gender" issues. Some would say this is because they are persecuted...I disagree. My PERSONAL OPINION is that there is a mental problem or confusion in place from the beginning that manifested itself at least in part in the person's gender confusion.

And yes...even though some of you don't like it, I am allowed to have an opinion and voice that opinion. I am not representing this as fact but do believe that over the coming decades, whatever the "truth" is will be discovered.

Thank you for sharing your PERSONAL OPINION. That's cool and as far as I can tell, no one is saying you aren't entitled to have or express one. I won't try to change your personal opinion but would also like the opportunity to maybe fill in the blanks a little that might at least make you think about it some.

The graphs and statistics in your link are positively horrendous and tragic. I won't even attempt to dispute their accuracy or where they came from as I've seen them repeated in many places and they have been generally accepted as valid.

I'll also make a potentially inflammatory statement: Gender Dysphoria, gender confusion or gender "issues" can cause mental health problems. Deadly serious ones. I also have no doubt that in some cases, other underlying problems of mental illness can manifest themselves as gender issues.

To that I'll add, being transgender, gender variant or gender dysphoric in and of itself is not a mental illness. The vast majority of those that fall under the broad transgender umbrella do not need or seek psychiatric or medical care. For those that do, the guidelines and therapies are well laid out under WPATH's Standards of Care which include considerable evaluation and counseling to identify and weed out those other potential underlying problems.

Current estimates say there are 700,000 to 900,000 people in the US that are transgender so let's just round that up to a million. Using Social Security, 2010 Census Bureau and other data, approximately 90,000 can be identified as having changed names and socially transitioned to the opposite gender living today. Out of that group, 30,000 post operative transsexuals have also legally changed their gender marker with the SSA, which since 1980 required proof of sex reassignment surgery.

As to the suicide rates, there's a lot more to it than just persecution. Just imagine the internal struggle alone feeling like you are one thing when society and sometimes even your own body tells you that you're something else. That would be pretty dammed depressing. Knowing what to do about it or how to express it can cause severe anxiety and emotional turmoil, substance abuse, instability and homelessness. For many, transitioning to live as the opposite gender brings social upheaval, loss of jobs, family and friends along with ridicule and mockery as well as hostility and violence. For many that do transition, feminizing procedures such as hormones, breast augmentation and cosmetic surgery are sufficient to provide relief. Those remaining who's Gender Dysphoria is severe and complete when social transition and other palliative measures are inadequate usually undergo SRS.

This is an uphill and very difficult struggle and for some, suicide can be a much easier way out than facing it all. Does that come as a surprise to anybody? For those that have transitioned, even if not completely physically transitioned, being forced back into the gender role they came from can be psychologically devastating which appears to have happened in this case.

It is a shame he died, but you can't force Women to share the bathroom and shower with a man. ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: Nyiah
If they weren't going to move her to a facility where she felt safe, least they could have done is place her in solitary for her safety while in there.

Come the F on, we do it to "protect" the kiddie diddlers, rapists & serial killers from harm from other inmates when necessary. Seems a little ethically effed to protect THEM before this one.

How can you sit there and call him a her? Its like you are encouraging a lie. I have said this before, chromosomes don't change, not yet at least. He was born a boy, and is a boy, regardless of clothing or name he calls himself.

Also, are you actually standing up for a criminal? I have no sympathy for criminals.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
Because that would imply a mental problem which may have manifest itself through gender confusion and they don't "like" the two being linked.

Take a look at THE GRAPH a little down the link's page.

Suicide seems pretty different for individuals with "gender" issues. Some would say this is because they are persecuted...I disagree. My PERSONAL OPINION is that there is a mental problem or confusion in place from the beginning that manifested itself at least in part in the person's gender confusion.

And yes...even though some of you don't like it, I am allowed to have an opinion and voice that opinion. I am not representing this as fact but do believe that over the coming decades, whatever the "truth" is will be discovered.

Thank you for sharing your PERSONAL OPINION. That's cool and as far as I can tell, no one is saying you aren't entitled to have or express one. I won't try to change your personal opinion but would also like the opportunity to maybe fill in the blanks a little that might at least make you think about it some.

The graphs and statistics in your link are positively horrendous and tragic. I won't even attempt to dispute their accuracy or where they came from as I've seen them repeated in many places and they have been generally accepted as valid.

I'll also make a potentially inflammatory statement: Gender Dysphoria, gender confusion or gender "issues" can cause mental health problems. Deadly serious ones. I also have no doubt that in some cases, other underlying problems of mental illness can manifest themselves as gender issues.

To that I'll add, being transgender, gender variant or gender dysphoric in and of itself is not a mental illness. The vast majority of those that fall under the broad transgender umbrella do not need or seek psychiatric or medical care. For those that do, the guidelines and therapies are well laid out under WPATH's Standards of Care which include considerable evaluation and counseling to identify and weed out those other potential underlying problems.

Current estimates say there are 700,000 to 900,000 people in the US that are transgender so let's just round that up to a million. Using Social Security, 2010 Census Bureau and other data, approximately 90,000 can be identified as having changed names and socially transitioned to the opposite gender living today. Out of that group, 30,000 post operative transsexuals have also legally changed their gender marker with the SSA, which since 1980 required proof of sex reassignment surgery.

As to the suicide rates, there's a lot more to it than just persecution. Just imagine the internal struggle alone feeling like you are one thing when society and sometimes even your own body tells you that you're something else. That would be pretty dammed depressing. Knowing what to do about it or how to express it can cause severe anxiety and emotional turmoil, substance abuse, instability and homelessness. For many, transitioning to live as the opposite gender brings social upheaval, loss of jobs, family and friends along with ridicule and mockery as well as hostility and violence. For many that do transition, feminizing procedures such as hormones, breast augmentation and cosmetic surgery are sufficient to provide relief. Those remaining who's Gender Dysphoria is severe and complete when social transition and other palliative measures are inadequate usually undergo SRS.

This is an uphill and very difficult struggle and for some, suicide can be a much easier way out than facing it all. Does that come as a surprise to anybody? For those that have transitioned, even if not completely physically transitioned, being forced back into the gender role they came from can be psychologically devastating which appears to have happened in this case.

Please tell me how a man's body will tell him he is actually a female....... are you suggesting that he got a "period"?

Transgender is just a mental problem, nothing biological about a man tells him he is a woman, its i n his brain that he wishes he was. I consider these people mentally deficient, and they need help. I don't hate them, but I won't sit here and call Bruce Caitlyn, just because he thinks he should have been a woman. Fact is, he was born a man, is a man, and until DNA chromosomes can be altered, he will always be a man under that wig and those dresses.

originally posted by: SheopleNation
It is a shame She died, but you can't force Women to share the bathroom and shower with a man. ~$heopleNation

There, fixed that for you.

Emotionally and psychologically Vicky Thompson was a woman. Socially, she was known as and had lived her entire adult life as a woman. Chances are she was also taking estrogen and developed breasts and other secondary female sexual characteristics.

Force a trans person like this into a male prison, deny their identity and personality and without a doubt panic, hopelessness and feeling even more trapped will be the result. You don't even have to mention the possible harassment or potential violence against her from other inmates to see the problem.

In reading other stories about Ms. Thompson, her original crime was taking a cell phone from a teenager and shoplifting some cosmetics from a drug store. She was given probation. Violating her probation is what got her locked up. The good news from this tragedy, if there is any, is that the guidelines for treating transgender people in the entire UK's correctional system is under review.

the thing that bugs me most, is when people go out of their way to refer to people like this as anything but she.
why is that?

i'm aslo bugged by (some peoples) lack of compassion in this thread.
though i dont think they have thought about it very much.

a reply to: Freija

What about all the other inmates feeling uncomfortable around someone who was born a male, what about their emotions and well being? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few unfortunately in this situation. I do feel bad that a life was taken. ~$heopleNation

a reply to: SheopleNation

I feel as though you don't actually know anything about Trans People... She Is/Was a She

originally posted by: DvDraake
Please tell me how a man's body will tell him he is actually a female....... are you suggesting that he got a "period"?

No, that's not what I meant. What I intended to convey was that what a person feels or knows them self to be is contradictory to the physical evidence as in, my head tells me one thing but my body tells me another. Imagine how difficult and confusing that must be and what it a struggle it is to feel that separation. It isn't just physical either. Emotional, psychological and most often sociological (how am I perceived by others) plays an equal or greater role.

Transgender is just a mental problem, nothing biological about a man tells him he is a woman, its i n his brain that he wishes he was. I consider these people mentally deficient, and they need help. I don't hate them, but I won't sit here and call Bruce Caitlyn, just because he thinks he should have been a woman. Fact is, he was born a man, is a man, and until DNA chromosomes can be altered, he will always be a man under that wig and those dresses.

Science and medicine has found more and more evidence that this is biological. I posted links to a hundred or more research studies that are looking into this. The brain is the largest sex organ in the body and if the mind tells a person they are one gender or the other, who's to say they are wrong about how they feel.

"Mentally deficient"? No. Many trans people are very bright, intelligent and creative thinkers, artists, scientists and doctors. Do transgender people need help? Since that means a whole lot of things to different types of people I'll say no nor is any wanted. Speaking to the question specifically of transsexual people diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria needing help? Desperately.

Finally, it would take someone completely ignorant, insensitive and rude with non-existent social skills plus hella big balls to address Caitlyn as Bruce to her face.

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Well I am sorry that you feel that way, but do you have a logical solution to the problem, any suggestions? ~$heopleNation

a reply to: Freija

How do you explain Bruce Jenner living most of his entire life as a man, being married to women and having children? He was a man, and is still a man. I consider his specific condition as a mental illness. Not saying that is always the case, but I believe Bruce trying to keep up with the warped Kardashians caused him to have a mental breakdown. I once seen him speak up in Seattle, very intelligent guy. If it's not a mental condition, then its a hoax for profit. ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: SheopleNation
What about all the other inmates feeling uncomfortable around someone who was born a male, what about their emotions and well being? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few unfortunately in this situation. I do feel bad that a life was taken. ~$heopleNation

This really is a complicated situation. On that I completely agree but the humane incarceration of trans people is something that needs to be worked out and discussed. Unfortunately it is taking someone's death to get people to open their eyes and think about this.

Using the OP's case as an example, had Vicky had SRS and her paperwork in order, she would have been sent to a woman's facility without question. Same person, same identity, same DNA, same chromosomes and no one would have batted an eye. Because she had not undergone sex reassignment surgery, suddenly that same identity, personality and that person's feelings of what they felt themselves to be gets tossed out the w indow. That seems rather cruel and harsh to me.

a reply to: Freija

Well they could have put her in solitary, but that could be considered cruel as well. I guess a solution could be having a wing that only houses transgender people in a Female institution, the issue is finding the space. Course I doubt the number of transgender folks being inside prison is very high, so maybe some kind of agreement could be made. As usual though, it's probably all about the cost. ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: SheopleNation
a reply to: Freija

How do you explain Bruce Jenner living most of his entire life as a man, being married to women and having children? He was a man, and is still a man. I consider his specific condition as a mental illness. Not saying that is always the case, but I believe Bruce trying to keep up with the warped Kardashians caused him to have a mental breakdown. I once seen him speak up in Seattle, very intelligent guy. If it's not a mental condition, then its a hoax for profit. ~$heopleNation

I don't explain it. It isn't up to me to analyze Caitlyn Jenner's life and motivations.

From what's been publicized though, Bruce lived a very long time repressing what was probably a very dark, shameful and disturbing secret. It is not uncommon for men to combat these feelings with hyper-masculine activities and disingenuous personalities. Athletics, careers in the military, marrying women and making babies are very common ways to prove to the world that you are really a man all the while suppressing the feelings of being something else.

Over time, the inability to express the feelings and person they've had to hide all their life gets stronger and can no longer be repressed or denied and they come out and transition to be what has always been felt to be their authentic self. That's the best I can explain it. Maybe someone that has walked this path in life could give you more?

I certainly wouldn't agree that Bruce transitioned to become Caitlyn for fame, popularity or money. Just how much money or accolades would it take YOU to do something like this? Probably not for all the tea in China? Amiright?

originally posted by: SheopleNation
a reply to: Freija

Well they could have put her in solitary, but that could be considered cruel as well. I guess a solution could be having a wing that only houses transgender people in a Female institution, the issue is finding the space. Course I doubt the number of transgender folks being inside prison is very high, so maybe some kind of agreement could be made. As usual though, it's probably all about the cost. ~$heopleNation

Yeah, this is really a tough call. I see both sides of the argument but something needs to be done. I don't know what the solution would be but it has to be better than the cut and dried decisions that are being made.

originally posted by: Freija

I certainly wouldn't agree that Bruce transitioned to become Caitlyn for fame, popularity or money. Just how much money or accolades would it take YOU to do something like this? Probably not for all the tea in China? Amiright?

People have done crazier things for money, and waiting until you're 67 years old to finally make the change is very suspect. He had just went through a divorce, and maybe he wanted to financially set himself up for retirement, as well as leave something for his family? I am not saying that is the case, but I am not ruling it out either.

I mean the guy has made a lot of profit off of this revelation, right? I like to think outside the box, but that does not make my assumptions valid at all. I would say I am about 70 - 30 convinced its a hoax. However, What would convince me 100% is if he goes through with the full sexual organ change. Course I do not know how you verify such a thing. ~$heopleNation

a reply to: Freija

And you are entitled to YOUR personal opinion. However and I'm not going to be around today to argue this...if you are born a HE or a SHE, no matter what operation you have or disguise you put on or costume you wear...you will remain the gender you were born. Your emotional arguments changing HE to SHE or visa-versa are not logical nor factual.

Next we will be pretending that dressing up as a black woman changes your race.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE
I emphasized and welcomed YOUR opinion deliberately so I wouldn't be accused of trying to stifle conversation or inhibit talking about this as some have suggested.

However, if you wish to "argue" rather than have a discussion about this, that doesn't seem like a very good place to begin since before even getting started, your opinion seems LOUDLY already cast in stone.

"Disguise", "costume" and "pretending" are a pretty clear indicator of where you're coming from so tell me, is there even any point of having a civil conversation and are you at all receptive to ideas that could possibly maybe sway your opinion somewhat? Are you too tied up in your own "emotional arguments" to consider other points of view or is going further with this a redundant exercise?

I also will not be around much today but will respond as time allows.

So the moral of the story is, if you are trans and you commit a crime that garners jail time, you better have gone all the way in your elective surgery, or you might have to go to jail with the sex you were born as.

I don't see the rules of jail changing to any individuals needs any time soon.