Transgender woman Vicky Thompson, 21, found dead in all male prison.

originally posted by: Poppcocked
a reply to: Abysha

Shut up, nobody is talking to you.

And he's sticking up for himself pretty good w/out your help.

So Ugly Bear WAS rejected by a transgirl. I am sorry if I hit a nerve. Let's talk about the OP, instead, then?

a reply to: Poppcocked

Aaaaand circling down the drain we go.

So sad.

Boo Boo Bear, methinks doth protest too much or you've got some serious issues. Even if I was a he or the woman in my avatar was, what's your point exactly? It isn't clear.

originally posted by: Poppcocked
a reply to: Abysha

I realize it would get you off to think what you are saying is true, but the truth is i stay very far away from those abominations, and i never even think about them until assholes like yourself bombard this board and others with these non issues.

Well yeah... you stay away from them now.

a reply to: Abysha

I do and i will.

originally posted by: Poppcocked
a reply to: Abysha

I realize it would get you off to think what you are saying is true, but the truth is i stay very far away from those abominations, and i never even think about them until assholes like yourself bombard this board and others with these non issues.

Ah, the "truth" comes out then. Transgender people are "abominations" and any one that understands, sympathizes or speaks out in support of their issues are just "assholes" bombarding the board. (Pot, meet kettle).

Thanks for sharing your opinion. It has been very enlightening and helpful in this discussion.

a reply to: Abysha

Are you really an ugly little bear?

Completely lost it, hysterical

This is what I was writing about before. Part of the liberal movement who call themselves ‘progressive’ highlight the fact that they want to move into an advanced position. Have now lost argument on so many levels that they replace reality with ideas, beliefs, delusion, fantasy, imagination and theory.

Progression for the human race on any level must be based on reality. Now since people don’t seem to know what reality is in this thread. Reality is the state of things that actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

We have a straight female here, whose ideas are not based on reality.

originally posted by: Nyiah
Oh FFS.

All these pages later and a few less-than-bright posters still don't get it. Let me outline this more clearly, and I'll do it as a straight female as bluntly as possible:

My vagina does not make me female, who I am inside/mentally/at heart/the soul/etc makes me female. Does your dong & pair make YOU solidly male? Yes?

Ask yourself why that is the only qualifier.
Now mentally remove genitals from the picture. Every trace of them, completely. If you would still feel male or female without them, all it proves is that your most basic concept of yourself is male or female. As with chromosomes, the physical aspect is an aside, if that's too difficult to grasp.

The fact that this has to be spelled out for people proves people that argue about what makes someone one gender or another have a lot to learn, and aren't quite as smart about the subject as they think. It's not black & white, never has been & never will be.

She does not believe in reality anymore. Her belief system is not one based on reality, but rather her own ideas, delusions, fantasy, imagination etc.

I am sorry to inform you, but yes, the reality is that your vagina does define you as a female. And if you had a “pair and a dong” you would also be defined as male. What is inside you (DNA), would also indicate that you are female/male.

However to quote “mentally/at heart/the soul”, is nothing but your ideas, beliefs, delusion, fantasy, imagination and its simply not based on reality.

My point? Critical thinking and logic tells me you are talking complete crap!

a reply to: Poppcocked

Except they are issues, your lack of empathy is disturbing

a reply to: Debunkology

i suggest you look up "de la Chapelle syndrome" also Intersex people...

also

www.telegraph.co.uk...

www.cosmopolitan.com...

www.medicaldaily.com...

go ahead and define it

a reply to: Debunkology

This is all tangential to the OP specifically but is an important discussion of the issues around transgender, transsexual and gender non-conforming people that needs to be had.

Since when are "critical thinking and logic" used to define the human psyche or matters of the heart and soul? And when exactly were you appointed arbiter of someone else's reality that you seem to have defined as something other than a person's ideas, beliefs, perceptions and imagination which is kind of demeaning and invalidating considering you state that your "reality" is somehow more real than anyone else's.

Then claiming somehow that your "critical thinking" is playing defense against the "liberal progressive movement" is denying there's some kind of internal struggle going on because the ideas, beliefs and theories of the modern world invade your fixed in time ideas that lack imagination or "idealistic or notional ideas". Sad. From an observational position other than your own, your thinking appears more atrophied than critical.

So rather than attack Nyiah's reality, consider her hypothetical and tell me you don't get the point she was making if exercising your imagination for a minute doesn't rock your boat of reality too severely? Say you wake up tomorrow and discover you have no genitals at all - nothing. Are you still going to feel like a man? Are you going to continue presenting and socially interacting with what I assume is a male and masculine personality. Do you think you would suddenly start acting differently or exhibit feminine behavior? If not, where does this sense of your gender come from? Is it all fantasy, delusion and imagination because you don't have the dangly bits to back it up and therefor must not be "real"? Is your sense of gender solely coming from between your legs or is it coming from between your ears?

I also think after screaming and crying, you'd probably run to a doctor and say "fix me". "Oh but sir, your penis and testicles define you as male so the reality is you are not a man", the doctor says. Where's your critical thinking now when it is only your mind/your heart/your soul supporting your "reality"?

Kind of tough, isn't it?

Gender can be (is) independent of anatomy and is part of one's core inner sense of self, identity and indeed, their reality. Just because for you all these things match up and align together as they do for most people doesn't mean for others that they do not. Stop trying to politicize and label something that has existed throughout time across all cultural, political, religious and geographic boundaries. We've walked on the moon, we've developed advanced technologies, we've cured diseases that have killed millions and we consider different ethnicities all part of the same human species. Scientific and social understanding and acceptance of the world around us changes and grows over time rather than stagnates much to the chagrin of those too inflexible or incapable of keeping up. This is not a failure of reality, it is the advancement of civilization and humanity.

My point? Critical thinking and logic tells me you are talking complete crap!

Nice. That's my point about your statements as well.

a reply to: Freija
I say and post this as an explanation of why some people who others call homophobic...really aren't. Yes, there are some people who hate gay people. But there are others, like me who don't hate. Here we go.

I think part of the problem or confusion is this. The vast majority of people know in their minds exactly what they are. Male, female, white, black, tall, short, etc. These people regardless of what they are, are considered "normal" because their perception of themselves is accurate. They don't think they are cats, a different race or an alien from outer space. They are normal.

There are and have always been those that are considered "not normal" when they believe they are George Washington, a goat, an alien from Alpha Centauri or wherever. We look at these people and realize they have no footing in reality and therefore, are mentally ill or at least confused. We know they are not what they believe themselves to be. But they aren't lying...they truly believe what their mind is telling them. But they are still considered to have a mental problem and need help. We don't tell them they are aliens or whatever, we don't accept their obviously wrong perception of themselves. We don't make laws for them, etc.

Those are the guidelines we have always lived with. Those are the experiences we understand.

Now you have a person who is born as a male, with male parts, with male physical attributes who one day dons a dress, lipstick and says "I'm a woman". We know these actions...therefore...we can categorize them!!!! The person is male no matter what operation they have. It is in their DNA and they can be identified at any point in time, regardless of dress or operation as a male of the species. But their mind tells them otherwise and they believe it. Sounds familiar right? They, therefore...are categorized as having mental problems just as those who think they are aliens, etc.

So...I propose this. I don't hate anyone for who or what they are. Yes...there are individuals I do hate but it is for their actions or inactions...not who or what they are. With that said, can't we assume that there aren't just those who are fine with gay/trans people and people that hate them...but also people who don't understand that there "may" be a difference between the alien and the guy calling himself a girl?

Now...here is the problem. The guy calling himself a girl may be just as wrong as the person calling himself an alien...and they would never know. Their mind tells them a lie. They can't change what their mind is telling them. They have no choice to believe or not because the only organ that allows choice is lying. OR...it is something different that has never occurred before in that somehow a female "soul" (for lack of a better word) was born into a male.

Anyway...just some food for thought and a minor plea to not always judge a person that doesn't believe something as someone that hates something.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

This person knows what they are talking about

a reply to: Freija

Say you wake up tomorrow and discover you have no genitals at all - nothing.

Why do you keep playing the what if game like a child?? Especially with such a clearly immature example. The violent thug who assaulted and victimized a teenage girl still woke up with his male organs. He did not one day wake up suddenly was missing his genitals. Neither have you, EVER unless you went to a physician and had your self altered. But I promise you without having to claim of being a psychic or being told by God that noone has EVER woken up without genitals when they had some the previous day, with only the following exceptions.
A) They had an operation the day before ..
or
B) They were the victims of a elaborate organ harvesting crime syndicate that keep the under anesthesia for the entire duration of harvesting the organ. When considering that the procedure is being done by criminals who likely do not care whether you live or die, the victim will probably bleed out before ever coming too.

Please stop playing the what if game, it is childish and immature and does not actually offer anything of substance.

Also the fact that this bandit even got probation on this felonious act only goes to show that the prosecution simply offered a plea deal to save the cost of a trial. Not unlike happens here in the states, and I can personally attest to that.
I was also a troubled youth when I turned 18, and landed in court myself for poor judgement. Go downtown to any felony courtroom and simply observe for one hour. You WILL see burglars, violent criminals, domestic abusers, high price thieves and dope dealers all catching probation on charges that would easily land them 5-15 if taken to trial.

Also the perp was 21. His entire adult life was 3 years. too bad he did not have the courage or determination to answer for his crimes. I mean he killed himself because he was being harassed by child diddlers and others in a protective ward. Seriously how pathetic do you have to be to try and act all thug like and then be unable to handle the people who are already in protection because they wont survive in Gen pop??

I would wager this lad would have probably ended up killing themselves anyways even if never been arrested. Obviously too fragile in the head to handle the real world.

originally posted by: AmericanRealist

Please stop playing the what if game, it is childish and immature and does not actually offer anything of substance.

It is only to help the luddites grasp the idea that a person's sex, having male or female genitals between their legs can be different than a masculine or feminine gender between the ears. What I find "childish and immature" is your inability to grasp this concept and saying it has no substance. It is germane to this discussion and you wish to completely discard and invalidate this person's sense of self and to the psychological trauma incarcerating her could have caused.

We get it. You're tough on crime. I think you are an uncompassionate jerk but that's just an opinion like the stuff you are so proud of sharing.

Regardless, this person's case has brought the policies and procedures of the UK's penal system and their handling of transgender prisoners up for review. With the recent similar case of Tara Hudson and the public outcry that did get her moved to a woman's facility, the current policies are being considered cruel and unjust and why they're being revised. I'm sorry if this isn't all black and white for you. I'm sure you don't see any sense or reason for it but I'm certain if Vicky or Tara was your child, you'd understand and feel differently. At least I would hope so.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

WeAreAWAKE, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and opinions on this matter and helping to further this discussion. I don't think I've accused anyone of being a hater, ignorant, phobic or bigot and apologize if I have although there have been thinly disguised if not outright examples of these things expressed. What I think one of the issues here is simply a lack of understanding and little true knowledge of transgender related things and people plus a whole huge dose of people married to unwavering beliefs and concepts held since childhood particularly in Western culture where the binary nature of gender is drilled into us from birth. These things make us uncomfortable because they seem strange, outside of the box and are contrary to the way we believe things are and the way everyone should be.

This is going to be long and complicated and most won't read it but I feel compelled to put this information up anyway because a few just might and a few might learn something. Probably a waste of my evening though?

I say and post this as an explanation of why some people who others call homophobic...really aren't. Yes, there are some people who hate gay people. But there are others, like me who don't hate. Here we go.

I understand the intent of what you're saying but do just want to clarify that being transgender, transsexual or gender non-conforming is not homosexuality. Except in certain limited facets, being transgender itself has nothing to do with sexuality although there does seem to be some blending, overlap or connection perceived by most people.

I think part of the problem or confusion is this. The vast majority of people know in their minds exactly what they are. Male, female, white, black, tall, short, etc. These people regardless of what they are, are considered "normal" because their perception of themselves is accurate. They don't think they are cats, a different race or an alien from outer space. They are normal.

There are and have always been those that are considered "not normal" when they believe they are George Washington, a goat, an alien from Alpha Centauri or wherever. We look at these people and realize they have no footing in reality and therefore, are mentally ill or at least confused. We know they are not what they believe themselves to be. But they aren't lying...they truly believe what their mind is telling them. But they are still considered to have a mental problem and need help. We don't tell them they are aliens or whatever, we don't accept their obviously wrong perception of themselves. We don't make laws for them, etc.

Those are the guidelines we have always lived with. Those are the experiences we understand.

Those last two sentences really hit the nail on the head. The "guidelines" or the social programming and conditioning are something we are all brought up with that are reinforced daily by the things we read or see on TV and because being trans* or gender non-conforming has been considered shameful or perverted or otherwise shunned by society and hidden away, it is also beyond the experience of most people and it is very difficult to understand. There is also a great deal about all this that I don't understand either but as a person that is curious and interested in things that do maybe fall outside the box, I've opened my mind, given my preconceived ideas and notions a good shake and tried to wrap my head around this as much as I can.

Trans* people also do not think they are cats or alien races or Satanic goats or George Washington. They don't have some dissociative identity disorder or think they are someone else. The vast majority of transgender people don't feel they have mental problems nor do they seek help. Are they different than "normal" people. Yeah if you've narrowly defined normal into neat little boxes. Am I saying that some trans* or gender non-conformists don't have mental problems or that other pathologies can't manifest themselves as some sort of gender issue or confusion? No, I'm not saying that, it does happen.

Far more commonly though these people can have situational or societal problems that can lead to other things such as depression etc. Some people repress and fight these feelings for years or even their whole lives, doing their best to fit into their roles expected by society as men and women which the denial in and of itself can cause psychological problems. Others are simply unable to conform as it is not in their nature so what we end up with is a spectrum of behaviors and expressions. When they cross or don't fit the expected binary masculine/feminine paradigm the natural reaction is disgust or revulsion because the fact is, even those "normals" that do fit the binary are a mixture of both genders that may feel their own position is somehow being challenged or threatened. Homophobia and transphobia stem from these feelings.

Most people that fall under the broad transgender umbrella have no issues with what sex they are nor do they suffer from classic Gender Dysphoria although that may be experienced to various degrees. Some may experience more of what could be called a social dysphoria of not feeling right or comfortable in their gender role or expression and want to present themselves and live as the gender opposite their assigned sex at birth. This may cause great conflict because for most people, it does fall outside of what our culture and society consider "normal" but consider that this is something that has been happening throughout all of human history and within other cultures, third gender or two-spirited people aren't looked at as being abnormal. Different, unique and a little weird, maybe? Broken, defective, sick? Only if looked at and treated that way and since people have always come in a variety of flavors, it is a lot more "normal" than you would think. Again, with things outside of your own personal experience and teachings, trans* and gender non-conforming folks are not going to fit your model or expectations of what they should be and probably creep you out.

Now you have a person who is born as a male, with male parts, with male physical attributes who one day dons a dress, lipstick and says "I'm a woman".

Do you really think it works this way like a switch has been flipped somewhere? Chances are a male (or female) that reaches this point in their life has struggled with their gender presentation for a long time if not since childhood. Why do you think the astronomical attempted suicide and suicide rates are so high for these people? This a tremendous burden to accept and even greater one to act on. It goes against the programming.

Don't you have some innate sense of being a man and feel it fits you being known as such? That same sense of being one gender or the other (or neither or both) is the way transgender people feel. Not that they are cats or dead presidents or aliens or somebody else, just that being known as Jane rather than John fits their own feelings about themselves and the way that others perceive them is better or more comfortable. John may or may not want to be Jane all the time. Cross-dressing heterosexual men are a dime a dozen and don't want to give up their parts. Does this hurt anybody except for those that live in fear of them?

-continued-

Can this sense of being the wrong gender also include feelings of being wrong physically or wanting to have the secondary sexual characteristics of a sex to match their psychological gender or even to "change sex" completely? For a certain small segment, yes it can. Gender Dysphoria is diagnosable psychological condition, not necessarily a pathology or illness with as of yet undetermined etiology that is experienced in various degrees and intensities. Current scientific and medical research points strongly to in utero biological causes for this statistically rare syndrome.

Those that seek and require medical assistance, even to get hormones cannot do so without the scrutiny of psychiatrists and psychologists, counseling, evaluation and therapy to identify and weed out those that may have other underlying or causative factors, mental illnesses and things that aren't Gender Dysphoria and for support and additional therapies when transitioning socially. Those that do transition socially usually also undergo feminizing procedures such as hormone therapy and various cosmetic surgeries. Of this group, roughly one-third go on to complete sexual reassignment surgery after additional psychiatric evaluation and minimum of a year successful post-transition living full time in their target gender role. People that are unstable, mentally ill or otherwise unfit do not meet the criteria for SRS. There is no magic pill, conversion therapy, electroshock treatment, imprisonment or punishment or psychiatry that makes this go away.

So this path often describes the varieties of transgender and transsexual experience. The median age adult males transition is 35. None of this says anything about transgender children. Gender atypical behavior and degrees of Gender Dysphoria are also experienced by kids although most will desist and outgrow this by age 10 and many will grow up to be gay. A percentage of these kids are completely cross-gender identified, strongly Gender Dysphoric and socially transition very young or as teens or adolescents. As one could imagine, these children and their families are subject to huge amounts of professional scrutiny and evaluation. When indicated, reversible puberty postponing drugs are given usually followed with hormone therapy for development of secondary sex characteristics. Except in extremely rare circumstances SRS is never performed before age 17 or 18. These transsexual kids grow up and blend seamlessly into society as normal men and woman and lead healthy and productive "normal" lives. I have irrefutable proof of this.

The person is male no matter what operation they have. It is in their DNA and they can be identified at any point in time, regardless of dress or operation as a male of the species.

So what? The because chromosomes argument is tiresome and is 1970's biology class level thinking. Medical science has identified a whole host of genetic conditions and mixed XX XY variables so chromosomes themselves aren't the end all, be all simplistic definition of sex that they once were. Even the International Olympic Committee and other sports organizations do not rely solely on chromosomes to determine if an athlete should compete against other women or other men.

Chromosomes or DNA or whatever have nothing to do with a person's gender. They are also not something that can be seen without medical or scientific testing and for all practical matters do not mean a damn thing. Do you think the cells of your liver, your lungs or your brain are mechanically or functionally different because under a microscope a Y chromosome can be detected? They aren't.

OR...it is something different that has never occurred before in that somehow a female "soul" (for lack of a better word) was born into a male.

I think if you would ask any transsexual woman or transsexual man about this, they would describe their feelings as EXACTLY like this. In fact, that pretty well describes the transsexual mindset to a tee. It is the soul, the heart and the essence of their being and personality that does not fit. Why would a man want to have a vagina if they didn't feel this is what they were supposed to have to the very core of their "soul"?

a reply to: Freija

First of all...nice to finally talk with you on-topic and (as I'm sure you can see) you are one of the few talk-to-able people around here. So...compliments.

But I do have to clarify. While you read my post perfectly, I still and probably will always believe that there is a correlation between the insanity of "I'm an alien" and "I'm a woman in a male's body". I say correlation because I don't pretend to completely understand something I'm not. But...there doesn't seem to be a provable difference between the two.

Your alien and your man/woman both believe in what they feel. They both (often) have no proven mental disorder other than them believing they are something they don't appear to be. Until or unless some scientist finds a "gay gene" (oh...and I realize I used homophobia incorrectly...I just can't type all those strung out gender descriptions) this will always be the case. Unless I am missing something, there is no scientific difference between our alien and man/woman. Without that...the default labeling is a mental issue. But again...whether a mental issue or a gene...it can probably be adjusted. I would have said cured but that can be taken as offensive.

So to conclude. With "normal" people seeing this as a mental issue, it is appropriate to be stand-offish about passing laws, allowing parades, building new bathrooms or jail cells, etc. We don't do it for the aliens...why for the man/woman, is the thinking. Yes again as all us non-haters have to repeated state...I don't necessarily subscribe to that belief. But logically...scientifically...it make sense. It is a clearer, well defined theory that is backed up by a history of other mental disorders.

Regardless. If a person is happy with what they are, who they are, etc...I say go with it. I've never had an issue with LGT...etc. But there are other people who won't feel the same. There are (as you know) those in your community that are fringe, that want to stuff it in the face of others instead of being left alone, that want to make an issue of it instead of keeping it in the bedroom and some that are down right militant about it. With gay marriage now in place and hate crime laws supporting your group...it may be time to act like the rest of us "normal" people instead of raising the issue and confronting the other side.

Live and let live needs to work both ways in this specific example. If both sides of this issue do that...the problem disappears. There are those on both sides that want that exact thing...you included I believe. I don't see you personally being part of the problem...but I'm sure you see those on your side of the discussion that just make you face-palm and say "did you really have to say that!". I know I do sometimes.

Peace.

PS: No...I didn't mean to make it sound like you every accused anyone of anything. Just bad wording.

originally posted by: ressiv
loll to put an transgender in an all male prison = first degree murder commited by the gov.!!!!!!!!

Except she killed herself. It wasn't her fellow inmates that did it.

This speaks more to psychology and how to provide psychologically compassionate imprisonment. Which, if im being honest, is the NUMBER ONE problem with prisons. And not just for transgendered folk.