Muslim speaking out!

a reply to: Xtrozero

Who cares what they do and for what reasons they do it for? Terrorism is terrorism. It's all done to instill fear in a populace to try to enact political change. THAT is terrorism. By making distinctions between types of terrorism, we end up with ridiculous conversations like these ones. It should ALL be condemned equally. No one terrorism is worse than another. Religion is just a tool used by terrorists to get their way. Focusing SOLEY on Muslim terrorism is ridiculous. It makes up a very small fraction of terrorism that occurs in the west, yet it is our number one focus. It's stupid and hypocritical.

originally posted by: Scouse100

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I agree. It's pretty much the exact same method used to prevent people from joining street gangs & organized crime groups. People have to have an alternative path, especially when they're poor, uneducated, disillusioned, and disenfranchised.

Here's a long article that explains that angle a lot better than I can. You don't have to read it all, but it's quite telling of the situations with ISIS (this paragraph is in the middle of the article).

 Why did he do all these things? Many assume that these fighters are motivated by a belief in the Islamic State, a caliphate ruled by a caliph with the traditional title Emir al-Muminiin, “Commander of the faithful,” a role currently held by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi; that fighters all over the world are flocking to the area for a chance to fight for this dream. But this just doesn’t hold for the prisoners we are interviewing. They are woefully ignorant about Islam and have difficulty answering questions about Sharia law, militant jihad, and the caliphate. But a detailed, or even superficial, knowledge of Islam isn’t necessarily relevant to the ideal of fighting for an Islamic State, as we have seen from the Amazon order of 'Islam for Dummies' by one British fighter bound for ISIS.

 What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters

This is brilliant thank you. I knew poverty, marginalisation, oppression etc... was fuelling recruits but this just makes things much clearer.

No problem.

The article surprised me too, especially seeing how little some of the fighters & sleeper cells knew about about Islam. I knew the situation with many al-qaeda recruits was like that, but I thought the impoverished ISIS recruits were getting additional brainwashing into the fanatic religious interpretations. But this article makes it seem like it's simply a way for them to make a living or fight the people they blame for destroying their neighborhoods. It makes it seem even more like a cartel or heavily armed street gang than I previously thought.

(note: for anyone reading this or my previous posts, "What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters" is the name of the article. i had nothing to do with it)

a reply to: enlightenedservant

No you see, if you bring up the Knight's Templar, Christians will tell you that they aren't real Christians. So it doesn't count see? It makes sense. I think...

PS: I agree. I think the Knight's Templar Cartel is a FAR more serious threat to our national security than ISIS is. Like it's not even CLOSE to a comparison. Here's some fun reading from two threads I authored on the subject:
Are All Terrorists Muslims? It’s Not Even Close
The problem with our Media in regards to ISIS

The second one mentions the Knights Templar.

a reply to: Kapusta

My question to you is what can we do to be heard ?

Many suffer and face struggles ... some give way to fear and react irrationally
My only suggestion is to not lose sight of what unites us
We are all of the same species ... all Human Beings ... we all bleed red and cry salt tears.
Most all want peace and prosperity ... it can be but will not happen until we unite as one and work for the survival and well being of the whole Human Family.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: enlightenedservant

No you see, if you bring up the Knight's Templar, Christians will tell you that they aren't real Christians. So it doesn't count see? It makes sense. I think...

True. It's like some people honestly can't see the double standard. Though I think most have simply never heard of them (I blame that on the lack of media outrage).

PS: I agree. I think the Knight's Templar Cartel is a FAR more serious threat to our national security than ISIS is. Like it's not even CLOSE to a comparison. Here's some fun reading from two threads I authored on the subject:
Are All Terrorists Muslims? It’s Not Even Close
The problem with our Media in regards to ISIS

The second one mentions the Knights Templar.

I'll go check out both of those threads. I was going to ask how I missed them but then I realized they were created before I joined. Though I was lurking here back then so I dunno...

Ironically, I was in Mexico for part of that cartel war, particularly Ciudad Juarez. Most of my colleagues at the time were too scared to go to Juarez because it was at the center of the war (since it was such a major entrance into the US). But it didn't phase me because I'd "been to other dangerous places before".

Wrong! Those cartels did so many beheadings that it lost the shock value. They'd leave the parts on school playgrounds, blow up cars, make posters with police faces then mark out the faces once they'd killed them, etc. And several buildings we'd previously visited would be burned out the next time we went there. My favorite restaurant had a major shootout the week after I'd left for good. It was literally a 3 way war between the police, the cartels, and the military. Law enforcement were so compromised by cartel money that the military had to step in for even the small police duties.

On the other hand, the locals lived pretty carefree as long as they followed 2 simple rules: 1. Never look the military in the eye & 2. don't get involved in the drug game & you'll be fine (they taught me those rules). There were even times that me & my Mexican coworkers would go walking through the city & hang out at sports bars, stores, and parks, particularly on days off. The VP of our company said they probably would've fired me if they knew that (insurance risks), though he ended up coming with me the day before we left for good lol. I actually miss it there. Good times.

Anyway, I only brought that up to point out that you're correct. Those cartels are a much bigger threat to us on a daily basis than ISIS. Some of the cartels are not only operating in the US right now, but they've had many shady deals with both our banks & different government agencies too. And that particularly goes for the Sinoloa Cartel. But I guess people are too terrified of them to speak against them. So ISIS & those other groups make an easier target, since they don't actually have to worry about them showing up at their houses or businesses and demanding explanations.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Too true. Your anecdote about Juarez really drives home how serious things get down there. Mexico is our neighbor. OUR domestic laws have contributed to its destabilization. This crap is at our doorstep. Heck it's inside our country now. The cartels have pretty much enlisted the domestic inner city gangs into their organizations.

And here's the kicker, THEY have sound economics backing their terror. ISIS and Muslim terrorists rely on donors. The cartels actually MAKE money to continue to fund their awfulness, and business is BOOMING.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

That's something I wish more people would read

But you know most people can't be bothered - we tend to not want to think too deeply about this sort of thing - too conflicting

It's why I think sites like this - ATS - where people come together to argue - and maybe even facebook - whatever, wherever, whenever...Talking - arguing - thinking is the only way. But somehow violence always comes first and then it's too late - and all that does is set everyone's thinking in stone

I only know violence is not the answer. So - you're right - use your words

Thanks for that - I'm out of here for the day soonish - but I hope this thread keeps going the same way it has. At least people are talking in this thread

originally posted by: Kapusta
As I have stated before their are 1.5 billion muslims in this world . extremist make up a small percent of that .

What is that percentage? When you say they only make up a small percent of 1.5 billion people, how small are we talking?

CSMonitor (www.csmonitor.com...) claim 15% to 25% which is 225million to 375million people. Granted, it's a Christian site so I think its comments should be taken with a LOT of salt (get it?)

Encountering Islam (encounteringislam.org...) claims 7%, which is 105million.

In both examples, even at 7% that is a HUGE amount of people who want the world destroyed.

So, when you say a small percentage -- it really doesn't seem small to me. Seems pretty high. 100million people or more are determined to see the downfall of democracy and a ban on freedom of thought and the right NOT to believe in their insane religion.

originally posted by: noonebutme

originally posted by: Kapusta
As I have stated before their are 1.5 billion muslims in this world . extremist make up a small percent of that .

What is that percentage? When you say they only make up a small percent of 1.5 billion people, how small are we talking?

CSMonitor (www.csmonitor.com...) claim 15% to 25% which is 225million to 375million people. Granted, it's a Christian site so I think its comments should be taken with a LOT of salt (get it?)

Encountering Islam (encounteringislam.org...) claims 7%, which is 105million.

In both examples, even at 7% that is a HUGE amount of people who want the world destroyed.

So, when you say a small percentage -- it really doesn't seem small to me. Seems pretty high. 100million people or more are determined to see the downfall of democracy and a ban on freedom of thought and the right NOT to believe in their insane religion.

I think it's better to just look around you. There are more than 5 million Muslims in America right now (like me ). There are roughly 20,000 cities & towns in the US. That comes out to roughly 250 American Muslims for every city and town in America. Now let's use the 2 estimates you showed.

If 15-25% of all Muslims were extremists, that would mean 750,000 to 1,250,000 American Muslims would be extremists or terrorists. That would come out to 37.5 to 62.5 American Muslim terrorists for every single US city or town, large or small.

If 7% of all Muslims were extremists, that would mean 350,000 American Muslims would be extremists or terrorists. That would come out to 17.5 American Muslim terrorists for every single US city or town. And once again, remember that this is the average for every city, from Los Angeles to Bucksnort, TN.

Just going by the estimates you listed, that would mean there would be 17.5 to 62.5 American Muslim terrorists in every single American city in town right now. So where are all of the Islamic terrorist attacks in America? If even one tenth of the fearmongering were true, wouldn't there be daily suicide bombings, IEDs, bombings, beheadings, & temporary takeovers of facilities throughout America?

Instead, it's the exact opposite. Or as this article put it:

And as a 2014 study by University of North Carolina found, since the 9/11 attacks, Muslim-linked terrorism has claimed the lives of 37 Americans. In that same time period, more than 190,000 Americans were murdered

Are All Terrorists Muslims? It’s Not Even Close

If you're bored, you could break down the numbers for every single country in the world. Just look at the census numbers for Muslims in that country, then divide that by the number of cities/towns in that country. Then take the desired percentages of that number to see how many of that country's Muslims would supposedly be terrorists/extremists. It'll become a lot clearer that the fearmongering (& those percentages) simply aren't true.

EDIt: oh, if there are any errors in my quick calculations, i blame obama, romney, and ancient aliens

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Too true. Your anecdote about Juarez really drives home how serious things get down there. Mexico is our neighbor. OUR domestic laws have contributed to its destabilization. This crap is at our doorstep. Heck it's inside our country now. The cartels have pretty much enlisted the domestic inner city gangs into their organizations.

And here's the kicker, THEY have sound economics backing their terror. ISIS and Muslim terrorists rely on donors. The cartels actually MAKE money to continue to fund their awfulness, and business is BOOMING.

Oh I agree. I even started preaching to my family how much the cartels seemed to love the recessions. Financial crises can make even the most professional person become tempted by cartel money. They have legit accounting and logistics departments, not to mention the obvious political connections from bribery and threats.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yea. They pose a threat on a COMPLETELY different level than ISIS does. It's terrifying. Yet somehow we aren't inundated with messages about the cartels every time they behead someone or blow something up. Nah, they aren't important. What's important are the technologically backwards people in the sand half way around the world who have no chance of damaging our infrastructure.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Xtrozero

Who cares what they do and for what reasons they do it for? Terrorism is terrorism. It's all done to instill fear in a populace to try to enact political change. THAT is terrorism. By making distinctions between types of terrorism, we end up with ridiculous conversations like these ones. It should ALL be condemned equally. No one terrorism is worse than another. Religion is just a tool used by terrorists to get their way. Focusing SOLEY on Muslim terrorism is ridiculous. It makes up a very small fraction of terrorism that occurs in the west, yet it is our number one focus. It's stupid and hypocritical.

I agree, but I guess my point is I see it as a numbers game and also what are the goals of the terrorist. When we look at a really nasty group like Boko Haram they are relatively small and just want to rape and pillage village in their area, and I would love to see them wiped out due to the evil they live by. As we look at a group like ISIS they are huge and growing. They see the whole world as their stage to engage in. ISIS is most likely 1000s of times larger than BH and have billions of dollars to use and see the west as something they need to wipe out as they also kill every person not associated with them on a stale so much larger than a group like BH. Just the fact they can blow up an airline or send 8 AK armed suicide bombers to Paris to kill all they can and kill them selves is just a start for them.

a reply to: Phage

Good question, even with the caliphate gone, the ideology still remains.
So while Russia and France have joint forces to fight against the caliphate, it can't really be fought through war, the only result which will be accomplished is that ISIS as an organisation won't grow and become even more powerful.

There are two possibilities, either this is the pure islam like ISIS says and which they have implemented within the caliphate, or it has nothing to do with islam as many muslims say.

If the first possibility is true, this is an answer that clarifies why so many suffer because of islamic extremism.
We will see alot more violent attacks with a theological motivation.

If the second possibility is true, the answer must come from the islamic community, not through words but through deeds.
Stop those radical preachers who poison the mind of the muslim youth with extremism.

This in my view is the only possibility to stop this extremist madness, if non-muslims speak out against this branch of islam it is seen as an attack against islam.

Although it is quite popular to blame the west for the attacks, what muslims seem to ignore is the list of attacks elsewhere with the same theological motivation.
Hence, that is why i have often said that this ideology is not tied to the caliphate and IS, it goes under many names elsewhere in the world.

List of latest extremist attacks excluding Europe.
Mogadishu Somalia, two car bombs 11 death, 17 wounded.
Balad Ruz Iraq, a truck with explosives, 19 death, 37 wounded.
Kawuri village Nigeria, boko haram attacks the village, 52 death.
Waga Chakawa Nigeria, attack on a church, 22 death.
Peshawar Pakistan, attack on school, 136 death, mostly children.
Tunis Tunisia, a bus with tourists is attacked and a museum, 23 death, 44 wounded.
Sanaa Jemen, suicide bombers in two shiites mosques, 142 death, 350 wounded.
Garissa university Kenia, al shabaab attacks university, 147 death, 79 wounded.
shiite mosque in Kuwait, suicide bomber, 27 death, 202 wounded.
Sanaa Yemen, car bomb, 28 death, 35 wounded.
Suruc Turkey, suicide bomber, 27 death, 200 wounded.
Philippines, village attacked and village chief beheaded, 31 death, more than 200 wounded.
Sadr city Iraq, attack on shiites at a market with a truck bomb, at least 75 death, more than 200 wounded.
Beirut Lebanon, 2 suicide bombers attack shiite mosques, 43 death and nearly 200 wounded.
Bagdad Iraq, attack against shiites, 21 death, 46 wounded.
Yola Nigeria, suicide attack, 32 death, 41 wounded.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Since we are talking numbers game here, ISIS also doesn't have anywhere CLOSE to the personnel, funding, or know how to mount an effective attack against literally ANY 1st world country, let alone the entire 1st world like they keep yelling about.

Recently with this attack in France, that was ONE attack. Yes, it is sad that it happened and it is sad that some people died. Yet ISIS has existed for years now and a few people dead a year isn't going to do much to change anyone's minds. And that is why the narrative about ISIS in the west is flawed. They aren't looking to conquer the west with traditional warfare. They are looking to has us subvert our values and traditions by neglecting our freedoms to fight them. Speaking xenophobia against them. Etc. They do this by enacting their terror attacks then letting our fears do the rest. The media plays right into ISIS' hands with all their xenophobic crap.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Xtrozero

Since we are talking numbers game here, ISIS also doesn't have anywhere CLOSE to the personnel, funding, or know how to mount an effective attack against literally ANY 1st world country, let alone the entire 1st world like they keep yelling about.

So do we just sit back and watch and say oh look another attack. You are right they can not go to war with a 1st world country, but they can take Iraq, wipe out the Kurds in the north, take Baghdad and every town in the country. Enslave the whole population of those they do not kill out right. So what is your answer here? They do have the power to put 100s of bombers and not just 8 next time in a country too, so what do we do when that happens?

a reply to: Xtrozero

To me, it all looks like sop for the Middle East. If not them, then someone else. If left alone, they'd likely form an actual political state and we'd be right back where we started pre-iraq invasion. It's not like Saddam's regime was known for it's love and affection for other Muslims and the west right?

At the end of the day, there has to be a point where we stop and acknowledge that our meddling is making things worse. Every time we meddle, we end up creating a bigger bogeyman later down the line. ISIS' origins can be traced to our involvement in Iraq in 2003. Heck, much of ISIS' membership there is Saddam's guard.

Though if you REALLY want to tackle ISIS, instead of just pretending you do by blowing them up, isolate their financial backers and go after them. However, such a course action would likely uncover some upsetting facts about some of our allies (namely people in Saudia Arabia), so nothing gets done in this regard and thus we all yell about blowing them up some more.

Until I start seeing real solutions to the problem that don't involve JUST countering violence with violence it will continue to appear like we are just playing into someone's agenda instead of actually combating terrorism.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I don't live in America so I don't know the percentages around - I was using statistics from a global perspective which suited the narrative.

In regards to your question:

So where are all of the Islamic terrorist attacks in America? If even one tenth of the fearmongering were true, wouldn't there be daily suicide bombings, IEDs, bombings, beheadings, & temporary takeovers of facilities throughout America?

I could only assume one difference being the disparate nature of our EU countries' LEAs to a single, more unified US. Yes you have multiple states with different jurisdictions, etc, but your LEAs between them and as a whole (i think) are more organised and unified than our many different LEAs around Europe and the UK.

And because of that, it's definitely more easy for these religious idiots to move about and cause atrocities. So that could be one reason why, thankfully, there are not more Islamic attacks in the US.

(and by no means am I downplaying the incidents of 9/11 -- truly horrific)

Does not matter how peaceful a religon is, people will always find a way to kill, torture, rape etc etc

Hell even Tibet under lama rule was disgusting and involved murder, torture, slavery .

And this will never stop. But that does not mean that everyone who follows a religon is like that, and I truely believe that groups like ISiS don't even believe their religon, and are just using it as an excuse to do the disgusting things they do.

Imagine if Isis get their way and take over the world with their form of Islam, Do people think they would stop the murder , rape . torture etc etc

Of course not! That's like trying to stop a serial killer from killing. This is what they love to do, and they will not stop until they are dead.

These Isis who go on one way missions, knowing they are going to blow themselves up or be killed. Funny when you look into their backgrounds they are a mix if petty criminals, loners, mentel health issues.

These are the kind of people that are easily brainwashed. Sad fact is, there are alot of these people waiting for their move .

I really believe that we should use ground force to cripple Isis. Just air strikes are not enough.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Until I start seeing real solutions to the problem that don't involve JUST countering violence with violence it will continue to appear like we are just playing into someone's agenda instead of actually combating terrorism.

Here is something interesting..

Jordan's King Abdullah II warned Tuesday of a "third world war against humanity", describing the Islamic State group as "savage outlaws of religion" in the wake of the Paris attacks.

During an official visit to Kosovo, Abdullah said both Europe and Islam were under attack from the "scourge" of terrorism that could strike anywhere and at any time.

"We are facing a third world war against humanity and this is what brings us all together," he told a press conference.

"This is a war, as I've said repeatedly, within Islam," he said, stressing the high number of Muslim victims of the Islamic State (IS) group.

So maybe the Middle East is starting to see this as their problem. Jordan has taken in a million refuges so they are feeling it.

originally posted by: noonebutme
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I don't live in America so I don't know the percentages around - I was using statistics from a global perspective which suited the narrative.

In regards to your question:

So where are all of the Islamic terrorist attacks in America? If even one tenth of the fearmongering were true, wouldn't there be daily suicide bombings, IEDs, bombings, beheadings, & temporary takeovers of facilities throughout America?

I could only assume one difference being the disparate nature of our EU countries' LEAs to a single, more unified US. Yes you have multiple states with different jurisdictions, etc, but your LEAs between them and as a whole (i think) are more organised and unified than our many different LEAs around Europe and the UK.

And because of that, it's definitely more easy for these religious idiots to move about and cause atrocities. So that could be one reason why, thankfully, there are not more Islamic attacks in the US.

(and by no means am I downplaying the incidents of 9/11 -- truly horrific)

I see what you're saying but I think you reached a wrong conclusion in the part in bold. Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out how to say this without having law enforcement kick in my door (since apparently, i'm on the lists as well)...

Ok, I'll say it like this. We have so much freedom in the US, there's almost no way to stop an attack without someone involved in the attack snitching beforehand or law enforcement being involved to some extent. That's why we've had more than 320 mass shootings in the US so far this year alone. And that's why we can't even stop the school massacres or church arsons, either. Because there's literally nothing stopping people from just walking outside & doing these things.

There are no checkpoints between States either, so we can drive between cities & states at will. In fact, the closest things we have to "checkpoints" or "border crossing stations" inside of the country are tolls and random police checkpoints for drunk driving. And when I say "random", I mean they only have them on random days in the year (usually "pro-buckle up seatbelts" campaigns or "anti-drunk driving" campaigns during big holidays since people love drinking & driving).

To make it even worse, being on a suspected terrorist list doesn't even disqualify the suspected terrorist from legally getting a gun! In fact, this thread on DailyKos claims that more than 2,000 people on the FBI's watchlist for suspected terrorists were able to legally obtain guns! (here) Think about that & its implications for a second.

So with the 5 million Muslims in America, and the percentages we listed above, you can see that the fearmongering simply doesn't add up. And I'd urge you to do the same thing for any other country. Just:

1. look at the census numbers for Muslims in that country,
2. do a quick google search of the number of cities or towns in that country,
3. divide the number of Muslims by the number of towns,
4. then look into how many actual Islam-related terrorist attacks have happened throughout that country.

And this article touches on an entirely different angle of this issue. You may want to read it to see how even the reported numbers are skewed.
Terrorist Plots, Hatched by the F.B.I.