Muslim speaking out!

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Willtell

He would say “Just win your argument”

That's a good one.

While I agree fully with the sentiment, when cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias are at work at the same time...you ain't gonna win nothin'.

You’re partially right.

But civil argumentation often can break through the darkness of a mind that has been captured by negative conditioning.

I’ve seen it work. It does take a bit of energy

I believe honestly, though my time of doing this kind of stuff is long past, if I could have gotten too many of those young stupid Muslims before they became brainwashed by these dark minded religious gangsters I could have broken through to them


I could break then down pretty easily back in the day and if I wanted to can brush off the old mind and rescue some of them

But that’s for others to do now

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Willtell

And most Islamic history records that as the case

Except for a couple of hundred years when what is known as the Crusades happened.

Which Crusades? The Crusades where the Catholics killed the Muslims, Jews & Christians in Jerusalem when they conquered it? Or the "Northern Crusades", where the Catholics killed the pagans & non-Catholic Christians in eastern & northeastern Europe? Whose fault was that?

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Whose fault was that?

Ignorant people driven by fear?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: WeRpeons
a reply to: flammadraco

I agree there are different sects in the Christian religions, but none of these sects promote barbaric violence against non-believers. This is the main problem with religion. It's open to interpretation which creates division and violence among humanity.

Really? Here are 8 Christian Terrorist Organizations That Equal ISIS

And that list doesn't even touch on the mafioso in Italy, who are proudly Catholic. Or some of the Mexican cartels like the "Knights Templar Cartel", which also beheads & mutilates its victims while proudly claiming to be Catholics.

Knights Templar gunmen are believed to be behind most of the 480 drug-related murders in Michoacan in the last 18 months, including dozens of decapitated or dismembered victims.

The crazy thing is they are right on America's southern border & were founded 2 years after ISIS was founded. Yet no one talks about them, much less blames all of Christianity for their atrocities.

a reply to: Puppylove

You all sit around do nothing but complain, and bitch at people for being upset about extremists, but do not a damn thing to truly end the extremists threat, when they're putting you all in danger, and you enable them.

What did you do to prevent the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? In those wars we were the extremists

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Whose fault was that?

Ignorant people driven by fear?

Not exactly. They were highly organized military campaigns meant to conquer, convert or massacre the local populations, all while claiming the new territory as their own, either as annexed territory or as vassal states. Though their leadership probably used the same fearmongering tactics that today's leadership does, in order to get their populations to go along with the scheme.

So yeah, I guess there were ignorant masses that had their irrational fears used against them in order to get them to invade their pagan & non-Catholic neighbors.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I protested against the wars, difference is, the government are the aggressors. A legitimate authority. Whether I like them or not. That said I'll join the revolution if it starts up. This government desperately needs a restart.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yes. Without fear driven ignorance, what would they be?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yes. Without fear driven ignorance, what would they be?

??? Uhh, I'm confused. Is that a rhetorical question?

a reply to: Puppylove

I protested against the wars, difference is, the government are the aggressors. A legitimate authority. Whether I like them or not. That said I'll join the revolution if it starts up. This government desperately needs a restart.

Legitimacy is not an excuse - you can't use that as an out

Some people are going to do things without the consent of the people - and without their support

What revolution? Who are you waiting for? If you think it's that easy to just kick some ass and set the world right - like you expect the Muslims to do - why don't you put your money where your mouth is, get yourself some weapons and start putting this world in order?

Why don't you start the revolution?

a reply to: enlightenedservant
Yes.
Without the use of ignorance and fear...

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I'm not responding to that, I'm not an idiot. Call me paranoid.

Will point out that you're telling me to commit treason, while I'm telling them to fight against extremist unrecognized unprotected criminals.

How exactly am I supposed to respond to that?

a reply to: Puppylove

Have it your way

If you can't consider what I'm saying, or respond - if you're not prepared to do what you demand of others, you have no business asking anyone else to put their lives on the line

If you do have something in the works, you might want to take a step back and consider that you actually have more in common with ISIS than you do with your fellow ordinary, moderate human beings

This isn't personal Puppylove - I know people are angry, and I know people are scared. We just want it to go away

Fundamentalism, extremism, terrorism - if it weren't so incredibly horrible you'd have to laugh at the idea that ISIS is something people can either stop supporting or destroy. This is an ideology that jumped the shark quite a ways back - it's too late now

Same as we can't stop the American war machine - speaking of fundamentalism, extremism and terrorism

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Puppylove

I protested against the wars, difference is, the government are the aggressors. A legitimate authority. Whether I like them or not. That said I'll join the revolution if it starts up. This government desperately needs a restart.

Legitimacy is not an excuse - you can't use that as an out

Some people are going to do things without the consent of the people - and without their support

What revolution? Who are you waiting for? If you think it's that easy to just kick some ass and set the world right - like you expect the Muslims to do - why don't you put your money where your mouth is, get yourself some weapons and start putting this world in order?

Why don't you start the revolution?

It's literally like asking Europeans why they don't take a stand & fight against organized crime families like the mafioso, Comorra, and crime syndicates. Or why concerned Americans don't take a stand and fight against the Bloods, Crips, Folk Nation, Aryan Nation, M13, the Mob, and our other organized crime groups? Or why don't the Japanese people take a stand and fight against the powerful Yakuza? Or why don't Hispanic people take a stand & fight against the ruthless cartels in their lands?

Of course, there are people in those countries who fight against them, like law enforcement, community initiatives, & some armies. The same goes for the various Muslims who are currently fighting the extremists. But those crime syndicates are so well organized, so well armed, & have so many powerful backers & hidden supporters; there's almost nothing normal citizens can do against them.

ISIS & al-Nusra are no different from those other organized crime syndicates. They make their money through human trafficking, smuggling illegal goods, extortion, selling sex slaves (their form of prostitution), and other businesses normally associated with organized crime. They rob, loot, and terrorize their captive populations & demand protection money from the businesses that exist in their territories, just like those organized crime syndicates do.

But somehow Muslim civilians are supposed to be able to defeat them when even the Muslim armies & militias can't? Or to put it even better, somehow Muslim civilians are supposed to defeat them when even the Muslim armies & militias and the powerful Western and Russian armies can't? The most powerful, highest funded, and most technologically superior armies in the world couldn't defeat the Taliban & the muhajudeen in Afghanistan (including Russia's long war against them).

But somehow I'm supposed to be able to? LOL How? Do people really think I'm that powerful? I know I'm not too shabby a man but dang, that's a lot of faith people are putting in me. All I can do is keep talking against them & leading people away from them with my words. Just like how the citizens in other regions can't defeat the organized crime syndicates in their own lands. (note: and sorry to rant at you. i didn't actually mean it at you. it just keeps building up, like these people don't even realize what they're asking of me)

a reply to: enlightenedservant

You type really fast :-)

But somehow I'm supposed to be able to? LOL How? Do people really think I'm that powerful? I know I'm not too shabby a man but dang, that's a lot of faith people are putting in me. All I can do is keep talking against them & leading people away from them with their words. Just like how the citizens in other regions can't defeat the organized crime syndicates in their own lands. (note: and sorry to rant at you. i didn't actually mean it at you. it just keeps building up, like these people don't even realize what they're asking of me)

Words - speaking out. Talking to young people -

They're marketing all this to kids like they're going to work on a kibbutz or something. They make it sound important - they'll be helping to grow a nation - a caliphate...the camaraderie - the beautiful, beautiful future . If you're 17 - or younger? And you don't know anything about life? Kids sign on to war so easily...everywhere

Once they're there they are conscripted - and they are doomed. It's just a matter of survival after that

Refugees are showing up all over for a reason - they're fleeing an impossible situation. Violence is not the way out of this. Offering people (all people) a chance at having a real life - a real future - that's what's going to end it. But not any time soon

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I agree. It's pretty much the exact same method used to prevent people from joining street gangs & organized crime groups. People have to have an alternative path, especially when they're poor, uneducated, disillusioned, and disenfranchised.

Here's a long article that explains that angle a lot better than I can. You don't have to read it all, but it's quite telling of the situations with ISIS (this paragraph is in the middle of the article).

 Why did he do all these things? Many assume that these fighters are motivated by a belief in the Islamic State, a caliphate ruled by a caliph with the traditional title Emir al-Muminiin, “Commander of the faithful,” a role currently held by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi; that fighters all over the world are flocking to the area for a chance to fight for this dream. But this just doesn’t hold for the prisoners we are interviewing. They are woefully ignorant about Islam and have difficulty answering questions about Sharia law, militant jihad, and the caliphate. But a detailed, or even superficial, knowledge of Islam isn’t necessarily relevant to the ideal of fighting for an Islamic State, as we have seen from the Amazon order of 'Islam for Dummies' by one British fighter bound for ISIS.

 What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Interesting article -

I'm going to read the entire thing in the morning with a cup of coffee

:-)

This thread - if it continues - might be much uglier tomorrow. Hopefully not...

Anyhow - nice to end it on a positive note tonight - at least before the late shift shows up

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Interesting article -

I'm going to read the entire thing in the morning with a cup of coffee

:-)

This thread - if it continues - might be much uglier tomorrow. Hopefully not...

Anyhow - nice to end it on a positive note tonight - at least before the late shift shows up

I agree. And take your time w/it; it's pretty detailed. I'll keep checking this thread for later updates.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I agree. It's pretty much the exact same method used to prevent people from joining street gangs & organized crime groups. People have to have an alternative path, especially when they're poor, uneducated, disillusioned, and disenfranchised.

Here's a long article that explains that angle a lot better than I can. You don't have to read it all, but it's quite telling of the situations with ISIS (this paragraph is in the middle of the article).

 Why did he do all these things? Many assume that these fighters are motivated by a belief in the Islamic State, a caliphate ruled by a caliph with the traditional title Emir al-Muminiin, “Commander of the faithful,” a role currently held by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi; that fighters all over the world are flocking to the area for a chance to fight for this dream. But this just doesn’t hold for the prisoners we are interviewing. They are woefully ignorant about Islam and have difficulty answering questions about Sharia law, militant jihad, and the caliphate. But a detailed, or even superficial, knowledge of Islam isn’t necessarily relevant to the ideal of fighting for an Islamic State, as we have seen from the Amazon order of 'Islam for Dummies' by one British fighter bound for ISIS.

 What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters

This is brilliant thank you. I knew poverty, marginalisation, oppression etc... was fuelling recruits but this just makes things much clearer.