Signature of The Creator. The Torah contains an ancient embedded "Security Code".

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: dashen

I never understood the Bible tracing Jesus's patrilineal family.
was Joseph the father or not?

"No descendant of Jeconiah would have the right to the throne of David (Jeremiah 22:24-30). Until Jeremiah, the first requirement for messianic lineage was to be of the house of David. With Jeremiah, it was limited still further. Now one had to be not only of the house of David, but apart from Jeconiah.

According to Matthew's genealogy, Joseph had the blood of Jeconiah in his veins. He was not qualified to sit on David's throne. He was not the heir apparent. This would also mean that no real son of Joseph would have the right to claim the throne of David. Therefore if Jesus were the real son of Joseph, he would have been disqualified from sitting on David's throne. Neither could he claim the right to David's throne by virtue of his adoption by Joseph, since Joseph was not the heir apparent."

Link

Also never understood the fact that since Jesus was born and died a Jew and is quoted in Matthew as saying that he has not come to change the law, why don't the Christians follow Judaism?.

Many Christians don't adhere to some teachings in Judaism, for example, because they cannot ascertain creation as explained in Genesis. Despite the OT being endorsed by Jesus, such as his references to Adam and Eve, many Christians compromise these beliefs for the deceptive teachings of the the contemporary law (scientific theory). The New Covenant tore the Temple's curtain open, allowing all to see God, rather than just Moses/Other Select Few.

Also very troubling to the church are passages in the Talmud which describe Jesus's life between the ages of 12 and 30 which the Christian Canon conveniently omits .
Such as the fact that Jesus was kicked out of university.
After several misunderstandings with his teacher he descended to Egypt and studied magic and sorcery for many years.

Catholic Canon*. I find it strange that many Gospels, such as those of the Nag Hammadi find, are continually omitted from mainstream Christianity. Misogynists could learn a lot from the Gospel of Phillip, and the complacent lethargy could be expelled through an understanding of Thomas' Gospel.

Regardless, what do you personally think of the story professed through the Adam-Jesus lineage?

The genealogy in Matthew was via Joseph. Since Jesus was not genetically fathered by Joseph, He did not carry the bloodline of Jeconiah. Also, it is believed that Joseph's genetic father was Jacob, son of Matthan and his legal father (via levirate marriage) was Eli son of Melchi.

The other possibility is that the genealogy in Luke was via Mary, who was also of the Davidic line but not through Jeconiah.

This means that Jesus was a descendant of David both by His mother (genetically) and via his father (legally) but did not carry the bloodline of Jeconiah.

In the case of a Jewish family line not having a son to carry on the family name (it is argued that Mary was an only child), the husband of the daughter was considered to take upon himself the family line of the mother through automatic adoption into her line.

From several legal points, Jesus was heir to David but was not of the line of Jeconiah.

a reply to: chr0naut

important to note that according to Jewish law the right to the throne of David is patrilineal ONLY.

originally posted by: dashen
I am really surprised in some of you.
You guys are ignoring the blatant truth in front of your nose.
there are many ancient versions of the Torah.
All of them were written by breakaway cults that did not adhere to very strict guidelines of scribe Manship .
BUT NONE OF THE OTHER VERSIONS HAVE A CODE SO COMPLICATED IT WOULD TAKE A SUPERCOMPUTER TO DO IT TODAY

Also very ridiculously ignoring the fact that this one code overlaps with countless others.
The 49 letter count is a pattern that repeats throughout the whole book yes
but there are other equidistant letter counts for the same word (Torah)
That overlap and sometimes utilize one letter for many words
.
if you remove or add or replace one letter from here or there it would disrupt the whole thing

i agree with you in that what you have shared is very interesting as a matter of academics.

i disagree that it is in any way conclusive of the whole divine authorship thing.

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: chr0naut

important to note that according to Jewish law the right to the throne of David is patrilineal ONLY.

The issue is not quite so clear cut: Matrilineality in Judaism from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a reply to: dashen

You wrote QUOTE: "It seems clear you just decided to disregard the whole posts about the Saducees, karites, samaritans, and other breakaway cults, more than aptly accounts for all alternate versions..." UNQUOTE


Your sweeping comments above betray a lack of knowledge of even the basic facts on this subject. You seem to group the Tsadukkim ('sons of Zadok') i.e. the Sadducees in the same category as e.g. Samaratim, i.e. a breakaway 'cult' when in fact this group (aka Zadokites) outlined by Josephus was the ruling party in the Levetical services at the 2nd Herodian Temple at Jerusalem since the time of the Maccabees (post 155 BCE).

But to return to any use of a 'code' you would have to prove that the consonantal Masoretic text of 1000CE (which you use as your 'inerrant' text) was unchanged since at least BCE 400 - and this is NOT the case. You do not take into consideration the pluriform nature of the text from BCE 300 to 68CE as witnessed by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Take a look at the website of Emanuel Tov for a discussion of these manuscript anomalies.

www.emanueltov.info...

On a broader note, there was no single 'normative Judaism' prior to the Rabbinic period, (scholars speak of Judaisms in the plural as a result) and also no single 'authoritative' family of sacred manuscripts (including the Torah) prior to 90 CE (atJamnia, which sided in with the Babylonian recension to the exclusion of all others - the caves were a lucky find for scholars since they show the state of MSS affairs PRIOR to 68 CE when the Roman Army had taken Qumran) -

At any rate, no coherent 'code' could possibly be built on these diverse MSS since even a single letter difference would throw any purported code to the four winds and produce incoherence.

You want more ?

originally posted by: dashen
Again, this code isnt just here and there. it is a repeating code that repeats at 50 letter intervals THROUGHOUT ALL the books.
This code would break down if even ONE letter was missing. This pattern is obviously not a random occurrence. This phenomenon points towards some stark facts.

I'm not going to debate the existence of the code, but if the code is as you say you could easily change it. By your own description you can change 49 out of every 50 characters, which assuming an average 6 letters per word allows you to change 7 out of every 8 words (not familiar with word length in Hebrew), and some portion of the remaining 1 out of 8 could also be changed.

a reply to: chr0naut

You wrote QUOTE "...since the Qumran scrolls were not used in the community but were placed for storage in the caves, they were most likely 'discards' because they didn't make the grade of the 'official' scrolls but could not be destroyed because they were still, in essence, 'the word of God'. So they MUST have had discrepancies from canon and, as such, assumptions about "text families" they reveal are castles built on air. I do, however, appreciate your scholarship and await further information (I do not have access to all available texts and am open to having my mind changed)..." UNQUOTE

There is no evidence that Caves 1-11 and the Masada fragments found near the Dead Sea were 'discards' but were fully functional copies of sacred texts for the Qumran Community placed in jars (as in Cave 1) or stored on shelves (as in Cave 4) or rolled up having been transferred to copper (as in cave 3 with the Copper Scroll) in advance of the Roman Army in 68 CE .

To say they must have had discrepancies from 'canon' presupposes that a canon existed prior to 68 CE - but such is not the case.

After the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66 - 73CE), the Rebbes had not yet even decided which exact books 'defiled the hands' (were inspired/sacred and authoritative) until after the Bar Kokhba Revolt (c. 134 BCE) where books such as Daniel and Hezekiel and Esther were still being debated. 'Normative' Judaism did not come into existence with anything like a canon of scripture until later, but even today what is considered normative for the Jews is somewhat fluid in itself.

The Torah (originally written in Paleo-Hebrew Phoenecian 'horned' letters, not with the later square Aramaic letters of the MT !) was the first collection of Jewish writings to be regarded in any way as 'canonical' by Jews beginning around 350 BCE - and by the 1st century CE the Sadducees at Jerusalem held that among the writings of the Jews only the Torah 'defiled the hands' and that the Psalms and Prophets and other writings did not (were regarded as 'less than sacred') - they also eschewed any belief in the Resurrection of the dead the final 'judgement day' and in angels etc.

The Samaratim interestingly also only revered the Torah as sacred scripture and like the Saduccees did not believe that the Psalms and Prophets were in any way 'defiled the hands'.

A discussion about the broader aspects of the Jewish Canon is beyond the scope of this thread - so it would be best to confine our comments to the fluidity of the Torah alone in the earliest stages of its development (especially in the period 350 BCE to 68 CE, which is the period covered by the Dead Sea Scroll corpus. And this fluidity and pluriform condition of the texts in the public domain (thanks in large part to the Internet) would greatly impact and even obviate the possibility of any 'code' throughout the text.

As the ancient versions –the Hebrew Consonantal Vorlage underlay to the Greek LXX Septuagint, or the Targums, the Samaritan Pentateuch, and the texts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls – show, deliberate changes, copyist errors and emendations crept into the text before the Masoretic Text had been established or, rather, the ancient versions are based on traditions different from that finally recorded in the MT - far from any castles built on air.

Early rabbinic sources, c. 200 CE, mention several passages of Torah in which the conclusion is inevitable that the ancient reading must have differed from that of the present Masoretic text. . . . Rabbi Simon ben Pazzi (3rd century) calls these readings “emendations of the Scribes” (tikkune Soferim; Midrash Genesis Rabbah xlix. 7), assuming that the Scribes actually made the changes. This view was adopted by the majority of Masoretes. See the MT of Psalm 145 which misses out the acrostic 'nun' in verse 13 altogether...the missing verse occurs in the Dead Sea Scrolls and LXX with out a hitch.

The Masoretic Text is far from perfect - the question arises: If the Masoretic Text could completely erase an entire verse from one of the Psalms, how many other passages or verses could have been left out by accident or design in the MT?

If the texts they started with had already been corrupted, then even a perfect transmission of those texts would only serve to preserve the changes. Even if the Masoretes demonstrated great care when copying the Torah , their diligence would not bring about the correction of even one error - and that would impact and obviate the idea of any kind of a fireproof code built into the consonantal text of the Torah.

More on the way - stay tuned later this week...

a reply to: Sigismundus

You type so many words that you totally missed the point.
The code works.
Try it.
Its the same code that Works on a specific set of scrolls From ancient times and all modern Torah Scrolls.
the fact that many copies of dubious authorship exists should not be a surprise due to the many cults you mentioned being less than meticulous in their transcribing.
Despite the fluidity of different cults And their minor changes here and there, The code has survived to this day as the masoretic text.
Also you have totally ignored the fact that this code only applies to the FIVE BOOKS OF MOSES (The Pentateuch)
Any thoughts?

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: dashen

Your sweeping comments above betray a lack of knowledge of even the basic facts on this subject. You seem to group the Tsadukkim ('sons of Zadok') i.e. the Sadducees in the same category as e.g. Samaratim, i.e. a breakaway 'cult' when in fact this group (aka Zadokites) outlined by Josephus was the ruling party in the Levetical services at the 2nd Herodian Temple at Jerusalem since the time of the Maccabees (post 155 BCE).

Thats because after the traditional jews destroyed a roman eagle that herod had erected in the temple he sided with the saducees(corrupt wealthy upper crust types) to assert his control over the temple.

But to return to any use of a 'code' you would have to prove that the consonantal Masoretic text of 1000CE (which you use as your 'inerrant' text) was unchanged since at least BCE 400 - and this is NOT the case. You do not take into consideration the pluriform nature of the text from BCE 300 to 68CE as witnessed by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

um, but i did, several times actually. and you use greek translations to try to further muddy the waters.

On a broader note, there was no single 'normative Judaism' prior to the Rabbinic period, (scholars speak of Judaisms in the plural as a result) and also no single 'authoritative' family of sacred manuscripts (including the Torah) prior to 90 CE (atJamnia, which sided in with the Babylonian recension to the exclusion of all others - the caves were a lucky find for scholars since they show the state of MSS affairs PRIOR to 68 CE when the Roman Army had taken Qumran) -

At any rate, no coherent 'code' could possibly be built on these diverse MSS since even a single letter difference would throw any purported code to the four winds and produce incoherence.

except the hasmonean, babylonian, israelite, and judean kingdoms.
and the fact that each future Jewish King is commanded in the Torah to write a Torah HIMSELF to be carried before him everywhere he goes.
and except that there is a coherent code, passed down generation to generation and you can test it yourself

originally posted by: arit_
a reply to: dashen

Hey OP,

Very interesting. I have a Hebrew bible here and indeed the sequence exists, at least the first one LOL.

Where did you find this information?

This is similar to computer error checking (Checksum). Not long ago we had a thread about Checksum error checking code in string theory....
Profound!

By the way, does the code run through all the verses or only the first five of each book?

Thanks

Thinking for a moment, if I were a deity and wanted to ensure information would be secure for thousands of years, I wouldn't use a code like this, or a check sum. Both can only tell you what is wrong, not where it is wrong.

I would use parity (this could also be seen as cursing the monks). Set up rows/columns of words saying what you want, and then add them up and do a parity check on the rows and columns. So each piece of the text verifies itself. Then, using my divine foresight I would know that both the Bible and the Quran would need this same treatment. So I would set up each text such that calculating the parity from two books, would give you the information to recreate the third.

Thus, even if all the books of one religion had been changed, the other two could recreate the true book. And any tampering in any book would be very obvious due to the smaller internal checks.

a reply to: Aazadan

oooooor, you can give these books to thousands of families, spread them to the four winds for a few thousand years, bring em all back together and see they are all identical.
oh wait. that happened.

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: Aazadan

oooooor, you can give these books to thousands of families, spread them to the four winds for a few thousand years, bring em all back together and see they are all identical.
oh wait. that happened.

But that is true of every major religion, I don't see that as absolute proof of the legitimacy of one over the other when several of those religions are contradictory but share this trait.

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: Sigismundus

You type so many words that you totally missed the point.
The code works.
Try it.
Its the same code that Works on a specific set of scrolls From ancient times and all modern Torah Scrolls.
the fact that many copies of dubious authorship exists should not be a surprise due to the many cults you mentioned being less than meticulous in their transcribing.
Despite the fluidity of different cults And their minor changes here and there, The code has survived to this day as the masoretic text.
Also you have totally ignored the fact that this code only applies to the FIVE BOOKS OF MOSES (The Pentateuch)
Any thoughts?

Still not conclusive of anything except that someone put a watermark in those books. And for what reason, we can only speculate, since the people responsible are no longer available for questioning.

Academically fascinating, scientifically worthless.

Check out "soulpowertothendegree". The post relating to the Iranian thoughts of the west is especially telling.

a reply to: dashen

You wrote : QUOTE "That's because after the traditional jews destroyed a roman eagle that herod had erected in the temple he sided with the saducees (corrupt wealthy upper crust types) to assert his control over the temple.."

You seem to be grasping at straws here and are clearly unfamiliar with the historical underpinnings to the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem during and immediately after the time of the Maccabees (c. 154 BCE), who were themselves 'Tsaddukim' i.e. sons of Zadok, i.e. Sadducees - yes they were wealthy, but they also were in charge of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem long before the family of Herod converted to Judaism in 107 BCE under John Hyrcanus.

The Roman Eagle etc. has nothing to do with the fluidity of the Masoretic text of the torah at this time. Herod himself married into the ruling Hashmonean dynasty (they were priest-kings, of a sort) i.e. before he started killing them off one by one...

But we are still dealing with pluriform text families of the Torah prior to 1000 CE when the Masoretes decided to add their own vocalization points to the consonantal text which THEY inherited, the MT. Studies of the MT as it existed in the Dead Sea Scroll period (350BCE to 68 CE) show that there was a development which led to the current text you tout as inspired - if a code was added to the text c. 1000 CE, it would ONLY work with the Leningrad Codex version of consonants and no other version out there in the wild - which (even if it 'worked' could only come from a date after 1000 CE and could not come from an earlier period wherein we can see the development of the consonantal MT text taking form gradually over the centuries.

Are you really so unaware of the corruptions which crept into the MT in its earliest stages, e.g. the miscopying of entire verses? See Gen 1:8b 'And God called the firmament Heaven, [and God saw that it was good..] NB the bracketed phrase is absent from the Masoretic MT text, and belongs there as it appears in all the other versions (SamPent, Dead Sea Scroll versions and the Hebrew consonantal Vorlage textual underlay to the Septuaginta) = i.e. the MT is missing at least 15 letters in Gen 1 : 8 b וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים,כִּי-טוֹב = put the verse back where it belongs and you would throw off any purported 'code' even in the later versions of the MT.

Clear as mud?



If so, we are going to have to compile a list for you to consider...

a reply to: dashen

You wrote: QUOTE "...the hasmonean, babylonian, israelite, and judean kingdoms. and the fact that each future Jewish King is commanded in the Torah to write a Torah HIMSELF to be carried before him everywhere he goes. and except that there is a coherent code, passed down generation to generation..." UNQUOTE

Presumably you are referring to e.g. Deuteronomy 17:18 "And it shall be, when the king sits on the throne of his kingdom, he will write him a copy of THIS law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: in order that it might be with him and he will read from it all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear his clan-god YHWH, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them..."

Curious (isn't it?) that David the 'king' knew nothing of 'this torah' since he had no compunction about approaching the Ark and even dancing naked in front of it - something that according to the Torah only the Levetical Priests may do, - it is singular that we do not hear of the Book of the Law in connection with David or Solomon - who seemed to prefer to listen to seers/prophets (e.g. Nathan) than read a law code. The Torah we know today dates from AFTER the Babylonian exile (BCE 587 to 530 BCE) with many of the statutes and precepts lifted straight out of or 'borrowed' (to use a politer term) from The Hammurabi Code (1756 BCE) some 500 years earlier than Moses.

Moreover the language of the Torah is often later Hebrew (esp Deuteronomy) than the time of David, and much later than the time of Moses. The book of Deuteronomy was written by the same group of scribes (e.g. Baruch) that penned the book of Jeremiah (c. 550 BCE) and this can be proved by comparing the syntax, grammar, language, Weltanschauung, sentence length, phrase construction, spelling etc. = check out 'Who Wrote The Bible' (1989) by Richard Eliott Friedman, a student of the great Harvard NT Scholar Frank Cross for a detailed discussion of this phenomenon written for the layman (ISBN 00 - 6- 063035-3)

That Moses had anything to do with the Torah text we read today (whether the Hebrew textual underlay Vorlage to the LXX Septuatginta or the paleo-Hebrew Dead Sea Scroll versions is now disproven.

But back to the 'code' - how can you propose a code for the Masoretic 11th century text (Aleppo Codex) when the text is so corrupt? For another quick example take a look at the textual mess the MT makes of Deuteronomy 32:43 when whole sentences are broken and phrases omitted.

Rejoice His People, O Gentiles !
for he avenges the blood of his servants
and takes vengeance on his enemies
and his land his people...

Where the correct text is found in the Qumran Hebrew consonantal textual underlay Vorlage to the LXX Septuaginta

Rejoice with him ye Heavens
Bow down to him ye gods !
For he avenges the blood of his children
And takes vengeance upon his adversaries
Yea, he repays those who hate him
And cleanses the Land of his people ...


Take a look at the Masoretic version of Genesis 10:24 where two generations are carelessly omitted (they are supplied by the Hebrew Vorlage textual consonantal underlay to the LXX) and in Genesis 4:8 where the Masoretic text omits the phrase 'let us go into the field' etc.

Since you are clearly dealing with a late faulty text, you cannot propose that any purported code could possibly point to any ancient version, but one that was manufactured at a much later stage in its literary development...

Surely you must be aware of these textual anomalies?

a reply to: Sigismundus

I was pretty much going to say the same thing but without all the technical words and actual knowledge of the subject.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: Woodcarver

Well HERE is a hinted reference to pi in Solomon's Temple Design to the fourth decimal place.

Mathematics is an integral part of architecture. I would not be surprised if the temple builders knew it. Again, this doesn't do anything to verify a supernatural intellect.

I had guessed this was just coincidental a natural resonance that evolved and was incorporated later?

דְּבוֹרָה

a reply to: dashen

You wrote QUOTE "You type so many words that you totally missed the point...Its the same code that Works on a specific set of scrolls From ancient times and all modern Torah Scrolls. the fact that many copies of dubious authorship exists should not be a surprise due to the many cults you mentioned being less than meticulous in their transcribing...."

In point of fact, even today there is no such thing as a single Torah in existence, just slightly different Toroth in terms of letter counts - the Samaratim are still alive and well (and consider themselves to be 'Jews' as much as the Turko-Ukranian Ashkenazim do - or the Berber-Sephardim do today) - and they read a different Torah consonantal Hebrew text in a number of places. There are also Kairite Jews who are also alive and well and read their own slightly different recension of the Torah... Try to remember that 'Normative' Judaism is an ideal not a reality, and the 'inerrant Torah' is also an ideal not a fact.

If the Aleppo Codex of the MT does contain any internal codes at all, it was placed there late in the transmission of the text, that is, after 1000 CE and could not be endemic or primary to the earlier versions of the Torah as it morphed over the centuries.

Once the Masoretes began to get their own version of the Torah to become 'almost normative' in the 12th century, fewer and fewer changes were made to the consonantal text - but THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN ANTIQUITY where we have pluriform recensions of the Torah (sometimes the differences are only the substitution of ELOHIM for YHWH etc. but enough to throw any code way off kilter if you are counting individual letters...)

Is any of this making any sense at all to you yet?

a reply to: Sigismundus

There is a code in only one of those versions.