Signature of The Creator. The Torah contains an ancient embedded "Security Code".

a reply to: Firefly_

except that you have identical copies going at least as far back as the dead sea scrolls.
Seems to have worked for several thousand years. I say its been a great success.

a reply to: dashen

Dashen

You wrote QUOTE '"The Torah (Pentateuch, Five Books of Moses, Old Testament) written in the original Hebrew contains a "security code" to ensure the integrity of the document through the Millenia."

UNQUOTE

You seem unaware of the textual fluidity of the Torah from c. 500 BCE to 900 CE

I'm not sure what Hebrew text family of the Torah you are using to support your code theory - which by the way does not hold water since there were more versions of the Torah out there in the wild other than the Masoretic text through the millenia. That is, we assume you are using the late Masoretic consonantal text to work out your 'codes'. ALl very well and good if there was only the Masoretic, but unfortunately for code seekers, there were a number of competing versions of the Torah all existing at the same time. Only the MT gained authority afer Jamnia in 90 CE, but Origen's Hexaply bears witness to the relatively large number of variants of the consonantal text.

Moreover, the Rebbes did not start counting middle letters on a column of text until the 400s CE and by that time the Masoretic consonantal text was he one they preferred, the so-calld Babylonian family of texts....

Mainstream Judaiesms (if we can use the term) did not copy out the Hebrew consonantal text of the rival Samaritan Pentateuch which differs from the Masoretic Text (MT) by approximately 13 % (i.e. 13 letters out of 100 are different in the Sammarita Pentateuch from the consonantal Masoretic Text)). See the work of Immanuel Tov for more discussion on this. But the Samaritan Pentateuch can be dated prior to 490 BCE, roughly the same time as the Hebrew Underlay to the LXX can be dated (the LXX was translated into Greek c. 250 BCE).

The Dead Sea Scrolls (BCE 350 to 68 CE) have shown that the consonantal un-pointed text of the Torah was still very fluid in places (not set in stone) as late as 250 BCE - compare the Masoretic version of the consonantal text with the vorlag Hebrew underlay to the LXX Septuaginta found at Qumran in the 1950s. Then compare that with the Samaritan Pentateuch. No single extant version (consonantal text of the Hebrew) has been found therefore (ipso facto) NO CODE could possibly be demonstrated. The Dead Sea Scrolls show them sometimes following the Masoretic Text, sometimes the Vorlag to the LXX sometimes other consonantal Hebrew underlays (e.g. Theodotion)

That's only looking at the Hebrew texts and not taking into consideration the translation from the Hebrew consonantal text into Greek c. BC 50 to 200 CE.

Take a close look at the Greek translations of the Hebrew Torah that use other vorlagen (Hebrew textual underlays) for their source material, e.g. the Greek versions of Symmachus, Theodotion and Aquilla. Origin's Hexapla is an attempt to line up these variants in the consonantal Hebrew text in order to make sense of these anomalies.

So if a person is really serious about finding any 'code' buried into the text of the Torah he would have to decide on what constonantal Hebrew text version of the Torah to build any code upon (whether the Masoretic/MT, the Hebrew consonantal underlay to th LXX or the Samaritan Pentateuch or the Hebrew consonantal vorglagen to Symmachus, Aquila and Theodotion's Greek translations of the Torah)

Sorry to burst your Code Bubble but that's the way it works...codes are very exact things if they are to work at all and the Torah is far from exact in its transmission through the millennia.....

a reply to: dashen

pi=y

Code is: ..25

It is written p + i with y above the p keeping it within algebra format.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Take a scroll from today or from a thousand years ago and this code will work..
the samaritans are converts from the time of assyria.

originally posted by: Firefly_
This method of "protection" is flawed. You can swap around words, or replace words with equal length words, as long as you leave the encoded words intact. Just swapping a few words can drastically change the meaning and context of the text.

Besides, whether there is anything divine about the torah or not, you simply cannot deny that it is a book full of bigotry and evil. The deity in it is nothing short of a misogynistic bloodthirsty warmonger, who makes the likes of IS look tame in comparison. Is it any wonder that the hardcore followers of the religions this abomination has spawned are also bloodthirsty warmongers?

These are excellent points. The watermark method would only work to protect the integrity of the words to a certain degree. We don't really know how old those stories are, so they could have been changed at some point before the oldest version available to us. We do know that some of those stories have roots that are far older. Perhaps those are the stories that were rewritten when they had to decide which words worked best for the inclusion of this code?

I haven't checked the validity of the claim that the code exists, but for the sake of convo, i will take your word for it. If it does exist, it seems like clear evidence of an attempt at manufactured religion based on fear and consequences.

Dbl

a reply to: NJE777

who is natalie?

a reply to: dashen

Salutations Above Top Secretions!

What's up excrementation?



SnF

a reply to: randyvs

above top (secret)ion

you however just called me poo.
same to you.
it rhymes cause its true

a reply to: dashen

We're all poo brother/sister secretions or excrementations.
I hope you aren't taking me seriously?

good thread

a reply to: randyvs

excretions, secretions are a serious matter indeed. especially secret excretions.
been called worse.

a reply to: dashen

To take your findings seriously you have to precisely rebut what Sigismundus stated.

a reply to: Rex282

I haven't heard of that name, but I have heard of Pythagoras full stop

a reply to: Rex282

The Samaritans are a idolatrous cult that base themselves on Judaism loosely. They worship a image of a dove. Their ancestors were converts who were forced to move there by the Assyrians.
Other breakaway sects included the Karites and the Saducees, Also weren't very particular about copyist errors, Or including their own agenda.
Between those 3 would be a likely accounting of all alternate versions.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I started into the video and really enjoyed the information there. After a while, I couldn't get past the mouth noises this guy makes. It's so super irritating that I could not get more than 1/3 in. I would have loved to listen to more but it was impossible. It was worse than nails on a chalk board.

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: dashen

Dashen

You wrote QUOTE '"The Torah (Pentateuch, Five Books of Moses, Old Testament) written in the original Hebrew contains a "security code" to ensure the integrity of the document through the Millenia."

UNQUOTE

You seem unaware of the textual fluidity of the Torah from c. 500 BCE to 900 CE

I'm not sure what Hebrew text family of the Torah you are using to support your code theory - which by the way does not hold water since there were more versions of the Torah out there in the wild other than the Masoretic text through the millenia. That is, we assume you are using the late Masoretic consonantal text to work out your 'codes'. ALl very well and good if there was only the Masoretic, but unfortunately for code seekers, there were a number of competing versions of the Torah all existing at the same time. Only the MT gained authority afer Jamnia in 90 CE, but Origen's Hexaply bears witness to the relatively large number of variants of the consonantal text.

Moreover, the Rebbes did not start counting middle letters on a column of text until the 400s CE and by that time the Masoretic consonantal text was he one they preferred, the so-calld Babylonian family of texts....

Mainstream Judaiesms (if we can use the term) did not copy out the Hebrew consonantal text of the rival Samaritan Pentateuch which differs from the Masoretic Text (MT) by approximately 13 % (i.e. 13 letters out of 100 are different in the Sammarita Pentateuch from the consonantal Masoretic Text)). See the work of Immanuel Tov for more discussion on this. But the Samaritan Pentateuch can be dated prior to 490 BCE, roughly the same time as the Hebrew Underlay to the LXX can be dated (the LXX was translated into Greek c. 250 BCE).

The Dead Sea Scrolls (BCE 350 to 68 CE) have shown that the consonantal un-pointed text of the Torah was still very fluid in places (not set in stone) as late as 250 BCE - compare the Masoretic version of the consonantal text with the vorlag Hebrew underlay to the LXX Septuaginta found at Qumran in the 1950s. Then compare that with the Samaritan Pentateuch. No single extant version (consonantal text of the Hebrew) has been found therefore (ipso facto) NO CODE could possibly be demonstrated. The Dead Sea Scrolls show them sometimes following the Masoretic Text, sometimes the Vorlag to the LXX sometimes other consonantal Hebrew underlays (e.g. Theodotion)

That's only looking at the Hebrew texts and not taking into consideration the translation from the Hebrew consonantal text into Greek c. BC 50 to 200 CE.

Take a close look at the Greek translations of the Hebrew Torah that use other vorlagen (Hebrew textual underlays) for their source material, e.g. the Greek versions of Symmachus, Theodotion and Aquilla. Origin's Hexapla is an attempt to line up these variants in the consonantal Hebrew text in order to make sense of these anomalies.

So if a person is really serious about finding any 'code' buried into the text of the Torah he would have to decide on what constonantal Hebrew text version of the Torah to build any code upon (whether the Masoretic/MT, the Hebrew consonantal underlay to th LXX or the Samaritan Pentateuch or the Hebrew consonantal vorglagen to Symmachus, Aquila and Theodotion's Greek translations of the Torah)

Sorry to burst your Code Bubble but that's the way it works...codes are very exact things if they are to work at all and the Torah is far from exact in its transmission through the millennia.....

Hebrew and even more specifically, Paleo-Hebrew, as a language is resistant to change in the way that a more symbolic language (like English, Latin or Greek) can change.

Each letter is a pictogram and each letter has its own meaning. Words and names are simply a way of stringing together the concepts conveyed with each letter. A change to the the meaning of a single letter in a single word would 'poison' the rest of the language that used that letter, so it really hasn't happened that frequently.

Also, the LXX, Hexapla & etc are primarily Greek translations and comparison of Greek translations. In the Hexapla, only one column of the six was actually in Hebrew. If there had been many Hebrew variations, there would have been more than a single column dedicated to it.

As we don't have their Hebrew sources for these translations, the statement that the source texts are "fluid" is based entirely upon supposition and on Origen's statement that there were discrepancies between the Hebrew text (note, singular) in use at the time and the Septuagint and other Greek translations. We do know that there were several Greek translations that differed from each other. This does not necessarily indicate that there were differences in the Hebrew source texts.

We also know from the Qumran texts that the Masorete text is very close to the Hebrew of the time and this is further suggested by its compliance to the LXX.

That Samaritan texts have differences, is entirely beside the point.

a reply to: StallionDuck

I understand that . Sometimes we have to suffer things to get to the nuggets in a presentation . He has many I have found over the years . His wife Nancy just passed ...so sad . :>(

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: dashen

Alright, i see what you are saying now. But you yourself said that equidistant letter sequencing was a known method of sending secret messages. The only thing this proves is that the torah is a contrived piece of literature. If this "watermark" serves any purpose, it is to make sure the text is not changed. There is no message to speak of, only a clear attempt of the author to secure the book as an authority. It does nothing to secure the book or any of it's contents as fact.

As Glend pointed out earlier, the first four verses in deuteronomy do not match up with this watermark. Clearly showing it is a more recent addition.

Now if the code revealed something of consequence, such as a working mathematical formula, or an undeniable prediction, it would be an amazing discovery worth some real speculation. But as it is simply a watermark, which we have several other examples of in history, this is simply a fun fact and worth little more than a footnote, or an ATS thread.

The earliest use of Pi was in Indian and Chinese manuscripts dated from 500 BC. We have fragments of the Torah from 600 BC.

...To me, that is interesting and worthy of ATS discussion.

The I Ching is an addition table using the numbers 0-63 - and I recall noting that one of the ancient number pictograms looked like Pi. As well, Wilhelm's translation provides clear instructions on 'constructing' a related circle. [Also, the Ching is likely 5-10 or more thousands of years older than believed.] With your info, this all leads me to believe humanity was much more aware/educated in the past than is officially recognized - and knowledge was not limited regionally. fyi - I see no reason to assume the knowledge came from outside sources, but recognize that it's a bit frightening to think we might have reached an apex in the past then slid down substantially. Maybe more than once.

Also, as opposed to being prophetic, I think it likely that the first ELS code simply directed our forbears in what to name the rabbis. I suspect efforts to decode the other layers would be more fruitful if analysts forgot about prophecy and opened their minds to other information.



AND - a reply to: dashen

Great thread. Thanks. F&S&

a reply to: dashen

Great thread, thanks for taking the time. I'm aware of multiple types of code in the scripture & even the alphabet characters (the Aleph-Bet...) are encoded with multiple layers of meaning. For starters, each Hebrew letter is a Letter, Number, Picture and Bodily Gesture. Fascinating stuff, and I'm sure others are adding thoughts describing these, I look forward to reading further. I have often looked at the Hebrew alphabet and been fascinated by it - there's an almost transcendant feeling which accompanies observation of the characters in prayerful reflection, as though there's some type of encoding which directly taps into our unconscious mind. I consider that Hebrew is an example of the guided/directed evolution of a human language. Great mysteries await.



Edit to add:

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

If you examine the numerical values of each of the Hebrew letters, and the numerical value of the words, and apply them to this formula:

The number of letters x the product of the letters / The number of words x the product of the words

You get 3.1416 x 1017. The value of π to four decimal places! Hmm.

Mind. Blown.

I didn't see that one coming, but it's just given me a major boost - love learning stuff like this; the ramifications are intense. Great link.

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

the code is there. for thousands of years at least. you cannot deny.
the authorship im willing to debate with you.

Why put in a code that leads to nowhere ???

This code is worthless since no one will either use it, or do anything good with it.

Everyone whom has tried to this point has been silenced , and BEYOND THE GRAVE TOO.