Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

originally posted by: Bigburgh
What about us atheists that celebrate the holidays to be with family. You don't have to be a Christian to have family values.
I wish atheists like WBC would keep their hands and thoughts off of other peoples happiness.....

They don't have to do it the same day we celebrate Christ then. Why don't they just make up their own little holiday instead of trying to ruin ours.

You have that backwards.

Christians usurped Pagan festivals.

Usurped? You mean like borrowed some concepts that the Holy Roman Empire codified into a bible and subsequently celebrated? How about you keep the truly pagan Halloween with all its witchcraft and we keep Christmas. I think that's a fair compromise. But wait, didn't you pagans usurp " all Hallowed Saints" day? tsk tsk

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

originally posted by: Bigburgh
What about us atheists that celebrate the holidays to be with family. You don't have to be a Christian to have family values.
I wish atheists like WBC would keep their hands and thoughts off of other peoples happiness.....

They don't have to do it the same day we celebrate Christ then. Why don't they just make up their own little holiday instead of trying to ruin ours.

You have that backwards.

Christians usurped Pagan festivals.

Usurped? You mean like borrowed some concepts that the Holy Roman Empire codified into a bible and subsequently celebrated? How about you keep the truly pagan Halloween with all its witchcraft and we keep Christmas. I think that's a fair compromise. But wait, didn't you pagans usurp " all Hallowed Saints" day? tsk tsk

NO - - I mean USURPED.

Pagan basically refers to "people of the land" (farmers). It was a derogatory term from those who considered themselves superior.

Festivals are all based in food, birth, death. Dates of Festivals are in relation to Harvest, Planting, Seasons, etc.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: DelMarvel

It's patently ridiculous to deny children a toy just because you and your atheist friends hate Christianity. Maybe we should also eliminate some of the hideous toys on the market which promote black magic and witchcraft. An eye for an eye.

Have you even read any of the thread? Nobody is being denied toys and I don't hate "Christianity." Franklin Graham doesn't get to say who is or is not a Christian. Many of the fourteen airmen which complained about this were Christians themselves.

And using the government to regulate the free market based on sectarian religious beliefs is not an "eye for an eye." It would be another example of unconstitutional violation of religious liberties.

originally posted by: Annee
...is against the laws of Separation of Church and State.

There is no law, nor Constitutional constraint of any matter.

(BTW - the toy collection is not on base. This is about soliciting for religious purpose on government property).

The White House has an "Annual Egg Hunt" with Easter Bunny and all; with clear connections to Easter, a religious holiday, I would hope you rail against that as you have this....I mean, why celebrate that notion, vaguely connected to the actual Easter holiday.....and let that pass while exerting so much energy for this?

Post Script:
Please don't take my comment above and twist it. A Government of the People needs to be separated from religion in the aspect of its functionality and its heritage. That does not mean that those who are servants to the Government through choice should be denied their basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Joining the military or civil service does not abridge ones rights.

Did this person violate law? Possibly; I am not a judge, but their method of delivery, to the use of Governmental email, does hold merit to a "law" breaking member of Government. The fact that we are still hung up on that notion, to a charity, regardless of their religious intent is trying to provide for those who cannot provide is odd.

A personal story. When I was serving, I volunteered for United Way. It got me out of the office (radars don't break as often as an electronics technician would hope). In that United Way program, there were those who believed in Christianity. They spoke of it; which by the logic of this thread, is enough to hang someone.

originally posted by: ownbestenemy

originally posted by: Annee
...is against the laws of Separation of Church and State.

There is no law, nor Constitutional constraint of any matter.

Again?

Check the history of legal cases won.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ownbestenemy

originally posted by: Annee
...is against the laws of Separation of Church and State.

There is no law, nor Constitutional constraint of any matter.

Again?

Check the history of legal cases won.

Again what? I am sure this is the only time I have challenged you on this. There are opinions and precedence; but no law clearly stating the separation of church and state. It is all opinion and based on a letter that T. Jefferson wrote.

So yes apparently, even though I am not sure what I am defending again....there is no law nor Constitutional constraint with regards to the notion of separation of church and state.

originally posted by: ownbestenemy

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ownbestenemy

originally posted by: Annee
...is against the laws of Separation of Church and State.

There is no law, nor Constitutional constraint of any matter.

Again?

Check the history of legal cases won.

Again what? I am sure this is the only time I have challenged you on this. There are opinions and precedence; but no law clearly stating the separation of church and state. It is all opinion and based on a letter that T. Jefferson wrote.

So yes apparently, even though I am not sure what I am defending again....there is no law nor Constitutional constraint with regards to the notion of separation of church and state.

Well, then you can start at the beginning and read the entire thread.

Its been explained.

Where'd they get Atheist from anyway?

Someone really needs to do their homework before putting out false info like that.

a reply to: Annee

I have read the whole thread. I stand by my assertion, so refute it. Falling back on "read the thread" doesn't cut it. What false information have I put out? There are plenty of examples of religious activities within the confines of Government that doesn't violate the First Amendment.

I can readily admit that utilizing the resource of a Government owned system (email) to promote this isn't kosher, but it doesn't mean the person cannot engage in charity actions. The method in which the person utilized is flawed; their convictions are not.

a reply to: ownbestenemy

No offense but you have either not read the thread or have failed to comprehend it. Of course one does not lose their right to practice religion when working for the government, just as the President doesn't lose his right to practice his religion in his residence by having an Easter egg hunt.

You had every right as a serviceman to volunteer wherever you wanted. However, the United Way IS NOT PART OF THE GOVERNMENT. Talking with someone you were working with at the United Way about religion is not at all the same as ongoing sectarian proselytizing of subordinates coming from the office of an Air Force commander. Those government employeees also had the basic religious right to not worry if their religious beliefs and what they did or did not participate in would affect their jobs.

And this wasn't just a toy drive. It was presented as a "missionary" effort to indoctrinate children into fundamentalist Christianity.

a reply to: DelMarvel

What did I fail to comprend; good thing you put in that whole "I didn't mean to offend?":

bunnies and eggs- fertility ritual... were part of the seasonal ceremonies before christianity came into the picture. therefore when the white house has their annual easter egg hunt they are not practicing any religion but rather traditions. if, instead of an easter egg hunt they had an easter pageant where christ was depicted carrying a cross to mt olives, that would be less tradition and more religious... and shouldn't be be allowed on gov't property.

All saints day was upsurped by Holloween??? Really, this holloween ask the kiddies what all saints day represents, let me know how many answer correctly, while you are at it, let me know because I really ain't sure I know! I think this one is an example of a failed hijacking of a pagan holiday.

Do you give the private sector employers the right to interfer with people's religious practices? I have a feeling you do! The gov't employs a lot of people! And, I am sorry, but I can't see it tolerating the muslims within the armed forces all stopping on the battle field at the same time, laying out their prayer mats and praying to allah facing mecca! And, it's is completely unacceptable to "punish" the children in your classroom who don't follow your religion and refuse to pray to your god by sending them out into the hallway! Or for an office of the gov't to refuse to issue one group of people a license that the supreme court says they have the right to. Matter of fact, I don't see where this is practicing the christian religion!

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23

Where is the kindness in sending children out into the hallway and giving the impression to their fellow classmates that they are being punished for not believing the same as you do??? Or denying a license to one group of people that they have a legal right to?

heck, where is there any hint of those fruits on this thread coming from those professing to be christians?

originally posted by: ownbestenemy
a reply to: DelMarvel

What did I fail to comprend; good thing you put in that whole "I didn't mean to offend?":

I already covered that.

This thread has been going on for quite awhile and people keep making the same mistaken claims and implications about what happened. Arguments that have repeatedly been addressed without rebuttal.

originally posted by: dawnstar
bunnies and eggs- fertility ritual... were part of the seasonal ceremonies before christianity came into the picture. therefore when the white house has their annual easter egg hunt they are not practicing any religion but rather traditions. if, instead of an easter egg hunt they had an easter pageant where christ was depicted carrying a cross to mt olives, that would be less tradition and more religious... and shouldn't be be allowed on gov't property.

Same reason public schools can have a Christmas tree, but not a manger scene.

Decorating a tree and gift giving have become a society tradition separate from a specific religion. While a manger scene is specific to one religion.

And as always Pagan inspired, which is really about the basics of life --- birth, food, fertility.

originally posted by: Annee
The Air Force has a long history of forcing Christianity.

They've been taken to court more then once.

I support Separation of Church and State 100%.

They wanna collect toys? Don't call it Christmas.

Thanks much, I agree completely!

a reply to: Annee

Just get these kids some toys and keep this stupid adult BS out of it

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Annee

Just get these kids some toys and keep this stupid adult BS out of it

If you read the thread you'd know it had nothing to do with the toys.

originally posted by: DelMarvel
And this wasn't just a toy drive. It was presented as a "missionary" effort to indoctrinate children into fundamentalist Christianity.

My guess is that you would prefer the type of fundamentalist indoctrination that our kids are subjected to in the classroom on a daily basis...

Is it not possible that your beliefs might in fact be a direct result of this type of fundamentalist indoctrination?

You said that Franklin Graham's version of Christianity is toxic.

I went to the link you gave and even watched several of the videos they produced.

I saw nothing that would even remotely resemble toxic indoctrination.

In my eyes, the REAL toxic indoctrination is whats coming from the Mikey Weinstein's of the world.

I asked if you could elaborate on what you think specifically is toxic about Franklin Graham's version of Christianity.

Did I overlook your reply?

I posted a few quotes and videos earlier in the thread here that suggest that this whole thing is simply a result of Mikey Weinstein's personal war on Christianity.

"Mikey Weinstein has declared war on millions of Christians, saying on tape "We are at war with a sub-set of evangelical Christianity...how many? Roughly 12.6% of the American public or 38 million people."

Who is Mikey Weinstein? Read His Own Vulgar Words Hating Christians and Jews in the U.S. Military

Now how can one little man like this, one invisible little fruitcake Mikey Weinstein force the military to do what he wants? What kind of country have we become? America has no core, it has no center, America is a mouse whose neck has been snapped in a trap.

You seem to agree with him, why?

Mr. Weinstein's reasons are so bizarre that I'm not even sure whether or not he's being truthful...

Why does Weinstein fear Christians so passionately? Time and again he has stated that he believes true Christians, as a whole, are involved in some form of subversive plot to conquer the world. Though he claims “religious freedom” is his desire, there can be no doubt that Weinstein’s goal is to fight the freedoms of conservative Christians.

Weinstein evidently sees a dramatic threat. Indeed, he seems to revel in the “death threats” and appellations of “evil” he says he receives. With his tirades on Christians in the military and their goals for “world domination,” Weinstein may yet be hailed a champion of a noble cause—or he may be branded a lunatic conspiracy theorist.

christianfighterpilot.com...-92

Has it ever occurred to you that just MAYBE everything we have been taught since birth is 'toxic indoctrination' designed to steer us away from the truth?

As I already said once before, some versions of Christianity are toxic.

But I'm seeing NOTHING toxic about teaching kids the truth.

Some of the links I referenced:

www.youtube.com...
media.samaritan.ca...

Christians are "die hard supporters of the Constitution"???



This argument is ABOUT Christians ignoring the Constitution.

There is absolutely no sense of irony on the part of some folks.

a reply to: Murgatroid

As I already said once before, some versions of Christianity are toxic.

But I'm seeing NOTHING toxic about teaching kids the truth.

the truth according to whom??
even among christians, the "truth" can vary.
here's my truth, it was reinforced by the behavior of those in the church I was attending, and I have spent many hours searching the scriptures looking for something to debunk it.
the bible says the husband is the head, wives are to obey him, children are to obey him, he leads, they follow, he makes the decisions, he is the high priest of the family.....
so what the heck are they doing upsurping this chain of command and putting the children in the lead for anyways? if they really felt that this doctine was correct, you'd think that they'd spend more time and resources trying to convert the men.

but anyways, that's my truth... christians are great about converting women and children to their religion, but then when the husband doesn't want to follow suit, well, they will turn around tell tell the women that god wants her to follow him...

your truth is not necessary the next person's truth, live with it and respect them regardless...