Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: DeathSlayer

And yet nobody seems able to answer the question as to which children are being left out.

Curious.

That is simple to answer so I guess you have never participated in a charitable event?

And I don't think I should give you the answer because if you don't know then you are here to argue and fight.

Where is your spirit of charity?

I have indeed. Participated in many. Which is why I know that a church organized holiday toy drive isn't going to collapse because nobody from one command in one Air Force base showed up.

I think I'll just take your "I'm not going to answer you Scrooge" as more of a "I can't answer that so I'll make it personal."

ETA - allow me to correct myself: more than likely 14 people didn't show up from one command on one Air Force base. We really don't know how many others did or didn't show up, but I'll concede that those who complained about the email more than likely didn't participate.

No .......you are lying .... you have NOT been involved in many charitable events.....because one who has a charitable heart is more concerned for those less fortunate than the organization hosting it.

Like I said.... you are here to fight and argue; not to support those who are in need of help and support.

Shame on you.

Lmfao now I'm lying? And you know this...how? Are we acquaintances offline? How long have you known me? When did we hang out? Whatever homie.

The fact that you've now completely devolved into nothing more than "liar liar pants on fire" personal attacks shows you have no ground to stand upon. And since you have no logical position, you're left with nothing but flailing about in impotent rage with emotional responses.

The toy drive goes on with or without the Air Force. The airmen in that command can 100% participate in the toy drive if they wish to. Children will still receive toys at Christmas, along with the message of "god's love." None of your emotionally charged ranting changes that, because those are actual facts.

Should you stumble upon any actual facts or data, feel free to reach out to me. I'm not interested in made up scenarios and personal attacks in lieu of actual content.

Oh I see...... you first make accusations and spread your propaganda..... now you point a finger at me?

Looking for sympathy? Well I am sure an atheist here at ATS will console you.......

originally posted by: Irishhaf

originally posted by: Gryphon66
It's about "the charity."

It's about "the kids."

What rot!

Take "the charity" off-base, work on it on personal time ... not the People's time.

Taa-daa.

Kids get presents and loads of Christian indoctrination in spades.

What's so wrong with Christianity that kids have to be bribed with toys to listen to the spiel?

says someone who has never participated in one of the military Christmas drives...some of my fondest memories was handing those kids their toys.... not a single bit of religious propaganda in any one I was a part of.

Are people just not reading the thread?

This is NOT a military Christmas drive. It's run by Franklin Graham's Samaritan's Purse and it is unquestionably used to indoctrinate children, presumably into Graham's toxic version of Christianity.

www.samaritanspurse.org...

They plan to collect over 10 million boxes of toys to send all over the world; there are collection and distribution centers all over the country.

NO KID IS NOT GETTING A PRESENT BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED AT DOVER AIR FORCE BASE.

Some people would say this is affluent westerners showing up in impoverished regions of other cultures using toys to try and indoctrinate other people's children. But the bottom line is no kid is going to be "left out" because of this case.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Secondly... no military person I ran with today heard or seen a briefing about not being able to say mention or imply anything religious in an email.

"Recently an email … was forwarded to the entire 436 Force Support Squadron. The invitation included in that email also contained language supporting the Christian faith and encouraged participation in this event as an act of Christian faith,” Tasker reportedly wrote. “I want to be absolutely clear that the email in question was not sent at my direction and is not endorsed in any way by me or any level of command.”

The commander went on to highlight what is and is not permissible when it comes to the contenst of government emails, writing that they “cannot violate the Joint Ethics Regulation, which prohibits the endorsement of non-federal entity or event by a DoD employee in their official capacity,” and explaining that these messages also can’t appear to endorse religion.

www.theblaze.com... victory/

originally posted by: Gryphon66

At this point in my experience, however, the Christians who actually follow the teachings of Christ are so rare as to be comparable to unicorns in frequency.

I hear you and certainly understand your point of view.

However, leaving aside the question of the mythical basis of the belief system there are many Christians who do make an effort to follow the teachings of Christ, who respect the beliefs of others and who strongly disagree with the strident Pharisees who claim to speak for all Christians. I know many including friends and family.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Sticking to facts isn't making accusations.

Unless, as is evident in your case, those facts disagree with one's personal convictions.

Oh well. Keep being emotional bub.

a reply to: DelMarvel

No, they're not. And it's evident even the OP didn't read up on it before posting. Otherwise none of this "they ruined a toy drive!" or "kids won't get presents!" bullcrap would ever have started.

Oh well. Facts aren't needed when emotions will suffice I guess.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Annee
The Air Force has a long history of forcing Christianity.

They've been taken to court more then once.

I support Separation of Church and State 100%.

They wanna collect toys? Don't call it Christmas.

Don't all of the American services have people who perform religious services such as funerals, mass and the equivalent for other faiths? Would you like that to be removed? If so, do you think the 100% of the actual service people would like them to be removed? If you think that I would argue you are wrong, and therefore why should your opinion be classed as right?

It's the same argument you are making around separation of church and state.

Yes but I think the real problem is this has to do with happiness and good cheer if there is misery is involved the rads wont care.

a reply to: Harvin

Yes, there are military chaplains from a number of faiths and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has clearly stated that in regard to this case there would have been no problem with this solicitation originating from a chaplain's office where it belongs.

However, the objection is to religious endorsement coming from COMMAND.

Im an atheist and this story is stupid.
Dosent matter nor bother me, it helps others and if its religion that motivates these people to wanna go out and help others, hats off to them.

And I don't support any atheist(s) wanting to get rid of Christmas.
Remove the religious aspect and its still about family and very cool light displays.

And nest time a group of atheists wanna ban stuff that effects others.
Theres always the NFL and newly found hero worship that goes along with it.

My 2 cents.
~Cheers~

the phrase "cutting off their nose to spite their face" comes to mind.

of course, politicians are gonna politic. and that goes for both sides of the fence.

originally posted by: Black_Fox
Im an atheist and this story is stupid.
Dosent matter nor bother me, it helps others and if its religion that motivates these people to wanna go out and help others, hats off to them.

Nobody is objecting to people being motivated by their religion to "go out and help others."

That's not what this is about.

This is about the office of an Air Force squadron commander sending an email to subordinates asking them to help the obnoxious Franklin Graham proselytize children via the toy drive in question. This is about multiple religious emails like this reportedly sent over a long period of time by the secretary to this commander as well as her evangelizing in the work place.

If people want to participate in this toy drive and think it's helping people that's their right and no one is arguing against that. This is about military personnel objecting to the appearance of being asked by their superiors to participate in religious activity they did not believe in.

a reply to: TzarChasm

"This is about the office of an Air Force squadron commander sending an email to subordinates asking them to help the obnoxious Franklin Graham proselytize children via the toy drive in question."

Ummm, ok.
So he "asked", meaning they could have said no?

I don't see the problem.

a reply to: Black_Fox

in my opinion, the email itself was proselytizing.... should the gov't in any way be proselytizing to jews, muslims, hindus or any other religious group a christian doctrine?

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Black_Fox

in my opinion, the email itself was proselytizing.... should the gov't in any way be proselytizing to jews, muslims, hindus or any other religious group a christian doctrine?

Im lost, did he ask them to go fight a war in a religious name?

Did he ask anybody to convert?

No, he asked people if they would volunteer to help children/families.
I would think most people of any beliefs could get behind that.

So I suppose, nobody, anywhere, should be asking anyone to volunteer or help.
This PC world has gone off the rails.

originally posted by: DelMarvel
It's run by Franklin Graham's Samaritan's Purse and it is unquestionably used to indoctrinate children, presumably into Graham's toxic version of Christianity.

In reality, just the opposite is true.

Ironically, indoctrination is the very thing that has led people to believe that Christianity is 'toxic'...

Michael Ellner was right: "universities destroy knowledge..."

The 'educational' system is being used to dumb down kids into unthinking conformists and zombies who won't ask any questions.

All one has to do is read the definition of the word 'doctrine' and it becomes crystal clear who is indoctrinating who.

75% of all Christian children that attend public schools will reject the Christian faith by their first year of college.

Are the public schools an educational "neutral zone," or a humanistic program designed to undermine the influence of the Church and the family? Sadly, most American Christian children are being discipled daily by pro-choice secularists, atheists, evolutionists, politicized bureaucrats, far left unions and oftentimes even child molesters.

Under the guise of education the publicly funded monopoly of Government schools has engaged in a vast program of social engineering designed to eradicate the Christian faith from American life.

www.youtube.com...

Never mind that this country's education system is already tailor-made to spread misinformation, entrench mythologies, and promote American exceptionalism to our young children. American history, as taught in schools, is generally nonsense meant to instill and preserve a sense of City-on-a-Hill nationalism, along with healthy doses of tall-tale founding myths, gung-ho militarism, and ethnic cleansing justification in the form of righteous Manifest Destiny.

As James W. Loewen explains in his 1995 book Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong, textbooks used to teach our children "leave out anything that might reflect badly upon our national character."

Who's Really Brainwashing Our Children

If I Were the Devil

If I were the Prince of Darkness I would want to engulf the whole earth in darkness.

I'd have a third of its real estate and four-fifths of its population, but I would not be happy until I had seized the ripest apple on the tree.

So I should set about however necessary, to take over the United States.

I would begin with a campaign of whispers.

With the wisdom of a serpent, I would whispers to you as I whispered to Eve, "Do as you please."

To the young I would whisper "The Bible is a myth." I would convince them that "man created God," instead of the other way around. I would confide that "what is bad is good and what is good is square."

If I were the Devil, I would encourage schools to refine young intellects, but neglect to discipline emotions; let those run wild.

Then I would separate families, putting children in uniform, women in coal mines and objectors in slave-labor camps.

If I were Satan I'd just keep doing what I'm doing and the whole world go to hell as sure as the Devil.

a reply to: Black_Fox

Our goal is to fill 5,000+ shoe boxes to be sent around the world as a way
to show children in desperate situations that God loves and values them.
Many of these children have never received a gift before. Many have never
heard of God"s incredible free Gift of Salvation through His Son. But a
simple gift, a shoebox packed and prayed for by you could give a child hope
and eternal security. Come, partner with us and CCA, be a
missionary filling shoebox gifts and praying over them with us

no SHE just asked them attend an event to help them spread the word of God's incredible free Gift of Salvation through His son.. to be a missionary and pray over the boxes that they packed with them....

which the secretary was not allowed to do....

AFI 1-1 2.12, which reads in part:
“...leaders at all levels in the Air Force must ensure that their words and actions
cannot reasonably be construed to be officially endorsing or disapproving of or
extending preferential treatment for any
faith, belief or absence of belief.”

You can view the complaint that was filed along with the email that was sent here:

www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...

heck, it even gives the solution to the problem:

FYI: In a very similar situation in February 2011 in which the National Prayer Luncheon
(NPL) was being illicitly promoted and endorsed by the U.S. Air Force Academy's officer
and cadet chains of command, MRFF took the Academy’s illegal proselytizing promotion of
NPL to Federal District Court in Denver, Colorado. In that instance, the situation was quick
ly remedied by the Air Force Academy before having to file an appeal from the Federal District Court to
the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in order to go to trial. The Academy took the appropriate action of putting the NPL program permanently under the auspices of the Air Force Academy’s Chaplain's Office rather than the command structure.
Incidentally, later that same year in November of 2011 the Air Force Academy also permanently placed
sponsorship and oversight of OCC itself under the auspices of the Academy’s Chaplain Corps following outspoken
public MRFF pressure and threats to litigate.

It seems like the message would have been acceptable if it had comes from the office of the chaplain instead of the office of the command... of course it might not have been the same exact message being send since the chaplain probably has better training when it comes to not offending those of other faiths...

originally posted by: Black_Fox
a reply to: TzarChasm

"This is about the office of an Air Force squadron commander sending an email to subordinates asking them to help the obnoxious Franklin Graham proselytize children via the toy drive in question."

Ummm, ok.
So he "asked", meaning they could have said no?

I don't see the problem.

And how would one know what the potential repercussions are of telling one's military superior "no"? For starters the report is that those complaining did not want to do so on the record for fear of reprisal.

originally posted by: Black_Fox

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Black_Fox

in my opinion, the email itself was proselytizing.... should the gov't in any way be proselytizing to jews, muslims, hindus or any other religious group a christian doctrine?

No, he asked people if they would volunteer to help children/families.
I would think most people of any beliefs could get behind that.

No, the email was asking them to be "missionaries" and to help evangelize children, not just help them.

How many times does this have to be pointed out?

originally posted by: Black_Fox
So I suppose, nobody, anywhere, should be asking anyone to volunteer or help.

Complete Straw Man.

No one is saying that.

The issue is that a commanding officer in the military should not ask subordinates to engage in sectarian proselytization. The MRFF has clearly stated that such a request from a military chaplain would be acceptable.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Ironically, indoctrination is the very thing that has led people to believe that Christianity is 'toxic'...

I said Franklin Graham's version of Christianity is toxic. Not all versions of Christianity. Big difference.

Franklin Graham's toy drive is indisputably being used for religious indoctrination. It's right on their website. Check out the link:

www.samaritanspurse.org...

Chalk one up for the good guys


A small victory but the war rages on. Hopefully this is a sign of religion being in it's death throes.

originally posted by: DelMarvel
I said Franklin Graham's version of Christianity is toxic. Not all versions of Christianity. Big difference.

Franklin Graham's toy drive is indisputably being used for religious indoctrination. It's right on their website. Check out the link: www.samaritanspurse.org...

Can you elaborate?

I went to the link you gave and nothing caught my eye...

What part of Franklin Graham's version of Christianity is toxic?

I completely agree with what you said about some versions of Christianity being toxic.

I believe Franklin Graham's dad even has some serious issues.

But I'm seeing nothing toxic about teaching kids truth.

Some of the links I looked at:

www.youtube.com...
media.samaritan.ca...