Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: DelMarvel
And this wasn't just a toy drive. It was presented as a "missionary" effort to indoctrinate children into fundamentalist Christianity.

I asked if you could elaborate on what you think specifically is toxic about Franklin Graham's version of Christianity.

Did I overlook your reply?

In his heyday Billy Graham was an inclusive leader who counseled leaders of all political beliefs.

Franklin is a strident, partisan right wing Fox network Christian.

He claims support of gay rights caused the rise of ISIS and turns around and supports an adulterous blowhard like Trump as a "very smart man" who is saying what people need to hear. He's a major cheerleader for the politically motivated War on Christmas and persecution of Christians in America hysteria. It's a negative, hateful public persona that doesn't have much connection to an objective reading of the Gospels in my opinion.

Just like someone defending "Christianity" by posting a Michael Savage video.

But your opinion or mine is irrelevant. Your opinion of Weinstein is irrelevant. The Air Force has stated the email in question in this thread was a violation of the Joint Ethics Regulation.

a reply to: Annee

I read the thread and people are upset that its a Christian charity and are fear mongering Christian indoctrination. I don't even care if a Christian cross is inside one of the boxes if it makes some kids day a little better.

originally posted by: dawnstar
the truth according to whom?

Like I said above, do you prefer the fundamentalist indoctrination that our kids are subjected to in the classroom on a daily basis instead of real truth?

I'll ask you the same question I asked the other poster...

Is it not possible that your beliefs might in fact be a direct result of this type of fundamentalist indoctrination?

Example: education teaches there is no truth...

In fact, New Age relativism is one of the most blatant forms of fundamentalist indoctrination there is...

There is no such thing as 'my' truth or 'you're' truth.

The reality is that these claims are illogical when applied to themselves.

Relativism is the philosophical position that all points of view are equally valid and that all truth is relative to the individual. But, if we look further, we see that this proposition is not logical. In fact, it is self refuting.

"All truth is relative."

• If the statement "All truth is relative" is true, then this would be a truth. If it is a truth, that means the statement "All truth is relative" is not relative. Therefore, not all truths are relative (since you claim your truth is not relative) and the statement that "All truth is relative" is false.

"There are no absolute truths. "

• The statement "There are no absolute truths" is an absolute statement which is supposed to be true. Therefore it is an absolute truth and "There are no absolute truths" is false.

• If there are no absolute truths, then you cannot believe anything absolutely at all, including that there are no absolute truths. Therefore, nothing could be really true for you - including relativism.

"What is true for you is not true for me. "

• If what is true for me is that relativism is false, then is it true that relativism is false?
• If you say no, then what is true for me is not true and relativism is false.
• If you say yes, then relativism is false.

"No one can know anything for sure. "

• If that is true, then we can know that we cannot know anything for sure which is self defeating.

"That is your reality, not mine. "

• Is my reality really real?
• If my reality is different than yours, how can my reality contradict your reality?
• If yours and mine are equally real, how can two opposite realities that exclude each other really exist at the same time?

"We all perceive what we want . "

• How do you know that statement is true?
• If we all perceive what we want, then what are you wanting to perceive?

Refuting Relativism

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Annee

I read the thread and people are upset that its a Christian charity and are fear mongering Christian indoctrination. I don't even care if a Christian cross is inside one of the boxes if it makes some kids day a little better.

No, that's not why people were upset. They were upset because an official email from military command was sent out with some Christian proselytizing in it, and that's a no-no. Just like it would be a no-no for them to send out an email with some Islamic proselytizing or Satanic proselytizing, etc.

a reply to: Murgatroid

In fact, New Age relativism is one of the most blatant forms of fundamentalist indoctrination there is...

New Age relativism wasn't around I don't believe when I was in school.....

Education teaches that there is no truth??? really, that's not what I remember when I was in school....
2+2 always equaled four, and that was the truth!! still is...
the planets revolved around the sun, that was the truth! still is...

the understanding that I posted was not the result of my public school education...or....I guess you are claiming mis-education...
it was the result of the behavior of the church I attended, alot of soul searching, and alot of searching in the scriptures. the fact that what I see as truth is different from what you see as truth is because it deals with the spiritual side of life instead of the physical, and therefore, WE REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE TRUTH REALLY IS!! We only have beliefs, experiences, and antiquated scriptures written by our ancestors long ago, which they based on their experiences, their beliefs, and the antiquated scriptures and stories they had on hand....
what my public school education taught me about the spiritual side and peoples beliefs concerning it is that they vary from nation to nation, people to people, culture to culture...and EACH ONE CAN OFFER US SOMETHING OF VALUE if we only open up our minds to it.....
Until you can produce physical evidence that the christian religion is the only true religion, you cannot refer to it as "truth", it is your belief, it's only true for those who wish to believe it.

a reply to: kaylaluv
actually, if I was to be upset about anything, it would be the number of people who are having a fit that the secretary got into trouble for sending an email out from gov't servers that was very "christian" in nature, which was against the regulations of the military. not to mention how many are either not getting enough background on this, or have, but just want to portray a non-truth and demonize those of us you support the idea that such things shouldn't be allow as taking away the poor kiddies toys and being anti-christmas.!!

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Annee

I read the thread and people are upset that its a Christian charity and are fear mongering Christian indoctrination. I don't even care if a Christian cross is inside one of the boxes if it makes some kids day a little better.

No. It's about separation of church and state.

The toys are elsewhere.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

Like I said above, do you prefer the fundamentalist indoctrination that our kids are subjected to in the classroom on a daily basis instead of real truth?

What the hell does any of that have to do with the subject of this thread?

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Annee

I read the thread and people are upset that its a Christian charity and are fear mongering Christian indoctrination. I don't even care if a Christian cross is inside one of the boxes if it makes some kids day a little better.

No, that's not why people were upset. They were upset because an official email from military command was sent out with some Christian proselytizing in it, and that's a no-no. Just like it would be a no-no for them to send out an email with some Islamic proselytizing or Satanic proselytizing, etc.

And this person has done the same thing several times. Why does she still have her job.

And those that reported it are Christians.

And -- it's not atheists. The founder of "Religious Freedom in the Military" is Jewish, not arheist.

Don't like Christmas? Don't donate.

Don't like kids? Neither do Atheists, apparently.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Don't like Christmas? Don't donate.

Don't like kids? Neither do Atheists, apparently.

That's just dumb.

It's about separation of church and state.

originally posted by: BigburghWhat about us atheists that celebrate the holidays to be with family. You don't have to be a Christian to have family values.
I wish atheists like WBC would keep their hands and thoughts off of other peoples happiness.....

We really need to stop this bull crap. Any organization providing items of needs or joy has no effect what so ever on anyone that chooses not to participate in the event, until they decided they want to make themselves involved. and then claim some trumped up offense.

If toys aren't being placed on their doorsteps, or if someone isn't pushing good will down their throats, then it should be of no concern to them. Their ridiculous demand that Christmas be renamed, shows you just how petty they are being, as if you call a rose a turnip, it is going to stop being a rose. It is all about control and childish bullying. If you won't let me name the theme of the party, then I am going to burn down the hall, narcissistic behavior, needs to stop. Their desire to prevent others for sharing or receiving joy is offensive to me, so where do I go to sue?

People need to grow up and learn that everything doesn't have to be about them, and they need to stop trying to make everything about them. There is probably not anyone more anti-religion than me, yet I don't care who or what people believe, worship or celebrate. Out of respect to my neighbors, friends and co-workers, I respond with the appropriate holiday greeting of goodwill and it has not converted me or turned me to dust. In fact I enjoy anytime people are displaying joy and goodwill towards each other.

So if you don't like it, ignore it. Or just say Bah! Humbug! Everyone will know where you are coming from.

The Air Force has had and continues to have an issue with forcing Christianity.

Not just the "OP" situation of soliciting volunteers (with a prosteltizing message).

Air Force Leaders Hammer Helpless Subordinates With Evangelical 'Gospel Explosion'

Ho hum, just another fundamentalist "Jesus Freak" day of joy in the U.S. Air Force, spewing out another major illicit act of despicable denigration towards the Constitution of the United States. This latest anti-Constitutional outrage comes to us from Cannon Air Force Base (AFB), host to the USAF's 27th Special Operations Wing (SOW), which lies on the outskirts of Clovis in my home state of New Mexico near the border with west Texas. Hold on to your seats, folks, because this situation is "explosive" in the figurative sense of cluster bombs peppering the landscape - where you discover one, you can be sure that dozens (possibly hundreds) of others lie in close range. As far as the combustible mix of unlawful fundamentalist Christian proselytizing and secular military duty is concerned, the USAF is an absolute and abominable minefield - and this latest so-called "Gospel Explosion" at Cannon AFB is a putrid, and sadly typical, example of command leadership streaking haphazardly right through that minefield. www.huffingtonpost.com...

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Don't like Christmas? Don't donate.

Don't like kids? Neither do Atheists, apparently.

That's just dumb.

It's about separation of church and state.

"Everyone is welcome! There is nothing to bring and no charge to participate."

More like separation of kindness and common sense. No mandate was given, no faith was forced, no conversions were made.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Don't like Christmas? Don't donate.

Don't like kids? Neither do Atheists, apparently.

That's just dumb.

It's about separation of church and state.

More like separation of kindness and common sense. No mandate was given, no faith was forced, no conversions were made.

You're wrong.

Per Chief of Staff Gen. Norton A. Schwart --- "Although commanders are responsible for these programs, they must refrain from appearing to officially endorse religion generally or any particular religion. Therefore, I expect chaplains, not commanders, to notify Airmen of Chaplain Corps programs." www.huffingtonpost.com...

a reply to: Annee

soooooo Chaplin corps...

I know the hate is so strong for Christians these days that people just can't stand the idea of Christian airmen or even other religions are participating in a charity that happens to be owned by a Christian organizations. all i gotta say is

WTF

WHO CARES

"sorry kids, no toys this year people are butthurt again in the USA"

just change it to operation not Christian child

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Annee

soooooo Chaplin corps...

I know the hate is so strong for Christians these days . . .

Blah, Blah, Blah --- can your type possibly make an intelligent rebuttal? Same old, same old.

It was Christians that reported the misuse of military email, which violated the separation of church and state.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Don't like Christmas? Don't donate.

Don't like kids? Neither do Atheists, apparently.

Don't like religious freedom? Be an overbearing, Constitution-hating Christian.

originally posted by: JDmOKI

WHO CARES

Only those who respect the Constitution.

"Sorry kids, there will be no mandatory Christian indoctrination this year."

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Example: education teaches there is no truth...

This is a blatant, obvious and repugnant lie.

I would be the first to state that our educational system is in peril, and that is mostly due to anti-science, belief-based nonsense (as you here espouse) invading reasoning and evidence-based education.