Why Creation Is The Only Logical Explanation...

a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy

So in this scenario of yours, if:

... this entire universe, as well as this reality, is a computer program running its coarse, kind of like a sandbox simulation. We're like a cognitive version of the Sims.

who was the programmer?

a reply to: Raggedyman

Also you quoted Hoses 6:6 "for i desire mercy,not sacrifice."

That one sciprture is so contradictory to many others. God requires sacrifice from Noah.

God was pleased with Ables sacrifice but not Cains.

The smell of burning flesh ( by sacrifice ) is pleasing to the Lord is a common thing found in many books of the bible.

Then God required a sacrifice of his son.

It's pretty clear Hoses 6:6 and the rest of the bible condradict each other. If God desired mercy he would require no sacrifice.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Yes many cultures have a flood story. Is it coincidental? Not at all. It's logical.

Floods happen all the time. In previous cultures when these floods happened they didn't have modern drainage techniques. Therefore the floods would have been pretty catastrophic at the time they occurred.

But the fact that many cultures have a flood story does not prove the great flood in the bible. The narritives are much different in some of the accounts. People had floods they told stories and blamed it on supernatural beings. Then they learned about drainage systems.

a reply to: Joecanada11

It's pretty clear Hoses 6:6 and the rest of the bible condradict each other. If God desired mercy he would require no sacrifice.

this is a pretty solid point.

originally posted by: edmc^2
who was the programmer?

A peer.

Today programmers develop games that others enjoy, that doesn't make them gods.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: edmc^2
who was the programmer?

A peer.

Today programmers develop games that others enjoy, that doesn't make them gods.

now that you mention it, there is a term for people who modify the code to alter the game drastically in their favor. "godmodding" derived from "god-mode". if I were a god, I would be mildly insulted because these people employ such tactics out of insecurity. they cant play fair, so they bend the rules.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Joecanada11

It's pretty clear Hoses 6:6 and the rest of the bible condradict each other. If God desired mercy he would require no sacrifice.

this is a pretty solid point.

God desires mercy, justice demands retribution

You may think you won't have to pay for the evils committed, but judgement is coming

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Joecanada11

It's pretty clear Hoses 6:6 and the rest of the bible condradict each other. If God desired mercy he would require no sacrifice.

this is a pretty solid point.

God desires mercy, justice demands retribution

You may think you won't have to pay for the evils committed, but judgement is coming

justice demands retribution? you do understand the difference between justice and vengeance? batman would be disappointed in you. eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. the point is not to make people afraid, but to help them understand. if you kill every criminal, you only prove to the world that bad people die. a real hero shows the world that even bad people can change if you show them how. vengeance is not justice, fear is not love, and mercy most certainly is not extortion. im really not inclined to take lessons in morality from a figure who threw his own son to the wolves because a few thousand years earlier he said "a thousand years of this crap and i might have to drown these humans like a sack of puppies, but theres that mary chick who looks like a good time...just gotta get joe out of the way..."

a reply to: Raggedyman

Eternal torment for a life of 13-100 years is not justice it is pure evil. There's no way to justify ebrernal torment.

This judgement was supposed to happen a long time ago.

And I thought we could escape judgement because God sacrificed himself for us so if we just believe and have faith we get life in paradise.

God sure is an illogical being.

a reply to: Joecanada11

Too bad it isn't a Vulcan, right?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Joecanada11

It's pretty clear Hoses 6:6 and the rest of the bible condradict each other. If God desired mercy he would require no sacrifice.

this is a pretty solid point.

God desires mercy, justice demands retribution

You may think you won't have to pay for the evils committed, but judgement is coming

justice demands retribution? you do understand the difference between justice and vengeance? batman would be disappointed in you. eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. the point is not to make people afraid, but to help them understand. if you kill every criminal, you only prove to the world that bad people die. a real hero shows the world that even bad people can change if you show them how. vengeance is not justice, fear is not love, and mercy most certainly is not extortion. im really not inclined to take lessons in morality from a figure who threw his own son to the wolves because a few thousand years earlier he said "a thousand years of this crap and i might have to drown these humans like a sack of puppies, but theres that mary chick who looks like a good time...just gotta get joe out of the way..."

Really?

An eye for am eye does not leave the world blind, just think about it, that's childish
Then you go on about revenge and batman, again just a tad childish

Then you go on about people changing, why would should they. You are sounding like one of those leftys who wants to hug everyone.
So what about those people who don't want to change, don't they exist
You know those street gangs, isis, drug pushers, psychopaths, are you suggesting we hug them all till they cry and say sorry

Do you read what you write, prisons are full of people that don't care and will never learn to care, never mind many streets

Imagine for one second that the death penalty was brought back and was utilized throughout every country.

Just research the amount of murders that have arisen since the death penalty was ended
What country's have the least murderers, those with death penalty shot.
What country's have the least amount of reoffenders

You know what vengeance is, vengeance is what happens when justice isn't carried out and also another problem, some people value themselves far more important that others
Rather than a tooth or an eye, they kill their enemy, their family, their villages in Vietnam

I am not really inclined to listen to the silly assumptions of an illogical person who thinks he understands theology and can then explain it to me

No thanks Barcs, you have put zero thought into your reply

Eye for an eye leaves the whole wold blind and batman, sheesh...

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: Raggedyman

Eternal torment for a life of 13-100 years is not justice it is pure evil. There's no way to justify ebrernal torment.

This judgement was supposed to happen a long time ago.

And I thought we could escape judgement because God sacrificed himself for us so if we just believe and have faith we get life in paradise.

God sure is an illogical being.

Mind showing me evidence of eternal torment

The tree of life, Does that mean anything to you?

I am sory Joe but I can't understand how you could have been a Christian for 7 yeas if you don't understand the basics

a reply to: Raggedyman

What else would you call being thrown into a lake of fire. Wailing and gnashing of teeth etc.

Some believe in the doctrine of heaven and hell. Others believe in New earth and annihilation for those who don't make The cut. Both camps have scriptures to back it up.

I believe the whole thing isn't of any god whatsoever.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Mind showing me evidence of eternal torment

Mathew 25:45-46 "
45"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength

There's probably more, this is from a quick and dirty search.

a reply to: daskakik

Thanks I hasn't gotten there yet. I was going to find some but you beat me to the punch. Again ill say it. Any God that would punish finite sins for all eternity is not worthy of my praise.

a reply to: edmc^2

This is logical. People may not like that.

nope...go looking for what God says His super plan will contain....He has a forever smile to paste on our faces....that's what you're after.....plus, He calls us friends....not servants.....for we are sojourners with Him in this trip

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: daskakik

Thanks I hasn't gotten there yet. I was going to find some but you beat me to the punch. Again ill say it. Any God that would punish finite sins for all eternity is not worthy of my praise.

a reply to: daskakik

Eternal destruction is not equal to eternal torture (the destruction of the life of a person sort of prevents torture and consciousness for torture, since the "dead are conscious of nothing at all" at Eccl.9:5). It can however be called:

These will depart into everlasting cutting-off,*... (Matthew 25:46a, NW)

* = That is, from life. Lit., “lopping off; pruning.”

Not torture, the whole eternal torture thing would be one of those straw men with extra filling, a Don Quijote Windmill Giant to fight and conquer for those using it as an argument to promote the picture they want to paint of a cruel tyrant dictator God. It's a Don Quijote Windmill Giant because it functions as a straw man argument but since there are so many who claim to believe the bible that are promoting this view of God, the straw man sort of comes alive to some people, like Don Quijote Windmill Giants, which if you conquer them, gives you a feeling of chivalrous victory. Much like the way people use that argument against the existence of God when God never even does that. It's similar to dismissing the bible because of the interpretation of YEC. It creates a false sense of security and intellectual superiority (or feeling that you're right cause the others are clearly wrong, it's one of those mindgames to discredit the bible by people who are seemingly representing the bible's viewpoint and often don't know better than what they've been taught either).

"Everlasting contempt" also is not equal to everlasting torture. More details in my thread called "One myth leads to another" about the supposed immortality of the soul (another myth required to believe in if one wants to believe in eternal torture for these souls in hell). Demonstrating that one myth leads to another (just like the myths of Pantheism, with 'nature did it' as its core philosophy that leads to all sorts of evolutionary myths).

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, koʹla·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smouʹ] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek baʹsa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

a reply to: whereislogic
The post I replied to did not say torture, it said torment, that is you playing your own mind game.

No matter what you call it, it's still an a-hole move by a supposed god of love.

a reply to: daskakik
I was responding to those who interpret "torment" as torture in their minds because of what they've been told about it (and what they constantly and repetitively get to hear about the subject; regardless of whether or not they believe it is true).

That's why I also quoted something about the verse that uses the word "torment", which perhaps you didn't read.