Biggest Gay Lobby Group in America Urges Schools to Ban Words ‘Boy’ and ‘Girl’

originally posted by: markosity1973
From the testimony I read in this thread from transgender people, the biggest problem they suffer as children is a lack of self confidence. This is where the education system fails many kids badly and a wider program to identify these poor kids and help them learn to grow in this area would be a great place to start in my humble opinion.

Don't give a lot of weight to my "testimony". I started 1st grade in 1961 which compared to the world today, was something akin to the dark ages. Things are so much better in so many ways for trans kids these days.

Yeah, maybe you can imagine feeling a lack of self confidence when everything, everyone and even your own body says one thing that you know in your heart and mind to be something else. It's also a little tough to be self confident when acting or speaking out is constantly put down or you are told you are wrong or even punished for it. I sometimes wonder how I survived being a kid at all but I did and actually turned out to be a happy and healthy adult.

On the other hand, maybe it was the strength of my self confidence, conviction and determination that got me through it?

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Annee

I am a girl. A straight girl.

I did not like being divided by girl/boy physical gender. I thought it was very unfair to be forced into a group simply by how I was born.

I'd rather draw straws and be in a diverse mixed group.

There is very little differences between the genders up to age 12. There is no legitimate reason to separate them.

In countries like Cuba there has been "inclusion of all males and females in all activities". This has led to younger and younger children having sex, getting pregnant, and in general being distracted from what school should be about. And since "the state" is the one deciding everything about how children should be taught, what they should be taught, and even how they should think, parents are not allowed to have any say about this indoctrination and have no say on their children's education. The more liberty you give "the state" to dictate how you, and your children should be, and how you should be defined, the less options you have more so since this leads to indoctrination since early childhood to accept what the "state" teaches.

Please provide links to your claims.

Otherwise they are just your opinion.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Annee

Seems to me Trans children know if they are boy or girl. They're not the ones who are confused.

Their "packaging" is just opposite of what they themselves know of who they are.

Treat them differently by finding another way?

That is correct. They do not identify with the genitalia they are born with, that much is clear.

All I am suggesting is that we work with these kids one on one and help them out individually rather than avoid gender specific terms for everyone. I see no problem in helping little johnny assume life as susie and then he can hang with the girls if that is the gender he (now she) identifies with.

I am not sure if you read my and my family's story elsewhere on ATS but I was one of those kids (born 20 years ago in 1995) and that's exactly what I did however, I was not able to do so until I was 12. And even then it was not without opposition (the parents of one girl had objected to me using the girls room and had to meet my parents and I before they were ok with that.)

I am so glad to see things have progressed since then.

It's also important to note that I had supportive parents but other transkids do not. So I feel this is important for them as well. I hated being separated and grouped with boys in elementary school. I was allowed to live as a girl from age 7 at home but then I had to be grouped with boys at school until I was 12.

Think about that. What if my religious parents had not permitted me to live my truth at all?

School should be about education and if one doesn't feel comfortable being grouped on the basis of gender (especially if they are unable to live as their true self) then that impedes education.

originally posted by: Annee

There is no problem understanding what you say. You're very clear.

I just don't agree with you.

Are you sure you understand my point? Let me reverse the roles and tell you one of the things you told me to see if you understand where I am coming from.

You stated in one of your comments that perhaps if there are people "offended in any way" by this they should be in private schools.

originally posted by: Annee
...
Like religion, if your culture is so strong that public school might be offensive ---- find a private school.

Why not have private schools for those children who see themselves differently instead of having the state decide in all children's identities? Playing devil's advocate here, since you were so kind to tell people that if they see anything wrong with this they should put their children in private schools.

BTW, it has nothing to do with "any offense"... It has to do with the right of the parents of the children to help the child in identifying themselves instead of having the state do so.

It is not the responsibility of the state to dictate children's identities, and never should be.

originally posted by: markosity1973
That is correct. They do not identify with the genitalia they are born with, that much is clear.

Being trans is WAY much more involved, complicated and deeper than just genitalia. It as much or more a social thing and the fundamental way you are perceived by others and interact with the world. Heck with gender identity, this is a matter of core, overall identity and personality. Genitalia is just a complication in all that especially when one gets older and sexuality becomes part of the picture.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I'm too tired to debate point by point.

We live in a society. We are not islands as some want to believe.

Public school is a privilege offered by our secular government. If you want to call it socialist, go ahead.

You do not raise a kid. You raise a successful adult that will fit into their future world.

Getting along socially is the first thing a child should learn. This does not take away from individuality.

I went to school in the 50s. Gender roles were still defined in that time period. It sucked. I hated it.

We have evolved in a very good way being more diverse in understanding differences.

originally posted by: EKron

On the other hand, maybe it was the strength of my self confidence, conviction and determination that got me through it?

Oh it was and I am going to give up now.

I am trying to show support and ways that a transgender child can be accepted into a new identity without getting the right wingers upset but every little thing I say is getting smashed.

Enjoy your debate, I'm out.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: EKron

On the other hand, maybe it was the strength of my self confidence, conviction and determination that got me through it?

Oh it was and I am going to give up now.

I am trying to show support and ways that a transgender child can be accepted into a new identity without getting the right wingers upset but every little thing I say is getting smashed.

Enjoy your debate, I'm out.

I hope you don't think I slammed you. What you presented was an ideal situation but not all families are supportive of their transkids. Mine weren't at first. It took them time.

Your solution would do nothing for kids whose family is not supportive.

a reply to: JadeStar
Thank you, Jade.

Okay, that's two of us now that have shared our experiences of how much this separating kids by boys and girls is not such a great idea and should be avoided in situations whenever possible, especially whenever so many different and simple alternatives exist.

originally posted by: EKron
a reply to: JadeStar
Thank you, Jade.

Okay, that's two of us now that have shared our experiences of how much this separating kids by boys and girls is not such a great idea and should be avoided in situations whenever possible, especially whenever so many different and simple alternatives exist.

Thank you. By the way I can't think of any good reason to divide kids by gender for purposes of education especially younger kids.

originally posted by: Annee

Please provide links to your claims.

Otherwise they are just your opinion.

You need evidence that the state makes all decisions concerning the education and identification of children in Cuba? It is not enough that millions of Cubans, myself included have escaped and tried to tell our stories to be told by foreigners from outside Cuba, or by castro's thugs that millions of Cubans have been lying, and only the few pro-communists from Cuba and foreigners know the truth?...

What do you want me to post? the statements from Cubans who escaped which has been derided in this website time and again? Do you want the information that the dictatorship feeds to foreigners and has dictated the world should think is happening in Cuba?...

...
Cuba is a socialist state, the State mandates that schools teach the ideas and policies approved by
the Cuban State which follows the Marxist-Leninist ideology.

The Cuban State asks of its children mindless submissive integration to its educational system
without taking into account the idea of individual freedom and individual responsibility within a civic
organization.

Education that is directed to the state in preparation for responsible life in a paternalistic State rather
than to the development of the child's personality tends to exclude the children of a nation as living
human beings with potentialities and capacities to be realized disregarding the implementation of the
holistic characteristic features of the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

III. Some ideas over Cuba's Constitution

Cuba disregards in its Constitution the right of the possession of all human rights. In Cuba it is the
State that orients, foments and promotes education, the culture, and the sciences in their
manifestations established and developed by Marxism- Leninism excluding the right of the child to
follow other ideologies.

The state holds that learning is the function of the socialist State consequently learning centers are
state controlled. Private schools were abolished in 1960, therefore the Cuban child does not come in
contact with information and materials from other national and international sources. Cuba promotes
the formation of the new generations and the preparation of the children, youth and adults for social living, neglecting the development of the child's potentials to its fullest. In order to realize this principle
the Constitution requires participation in political, social activities and military preparation of the child
[...j artistic creation is free to be expressed as long as its content does not conflict with the socialist
Revolution.
...

www.crin.org...


BTW, doesn't anyone remembers some of the statements and even documents that have come not only from Obama's administration about "conservatives being a threat to the future of America"?... These statements have also come from the United States Military Academy "West point".

West Point center cites dangers of ‘far right’ in U.S.
...
The West Point center typically focuses reports on al Qaeda and other Islamic extremists attempting to gain power in Asia, the Middle East and Africa through violence.

But its latest study turns inward and paints a broad brush of people it considers “far right.”

It says anti-federalists “espouse strong convictions regarding the federal government, believing it to be corrupt and tyrannical, with a natural tendency to intrude on individuals’ civil and constitutional rights. Finally, they support civil activism, individual freedoms, and self government. Extremists in the anti-federalist movement direct most their violence against the federal government and its proxies in law enforcement.”

The report also draws a link between the mainstream conservative movement and the violent “far right,” and describes liberals as “future oriented” and conservatives as living in the past.
...

www.washingtontimes.com...

These are steps being taken to have the nation embrace only one form of government... What they call now "progressive" meanwhile painting conservatives with a broad brush claiming we have a link with far right extremists such as white supremacists...

If you don't understand that in this nation there has been an indoctrination "towards the far left" to exclude conservatives and in favor of "the collective at the expense of individualism' then you haven't been paying enough attention.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: EKron

On the other hand, maybe it was the strength of my self confidence, conviction and determination that got me through it?

Oh it was and I am going to give up now.

I am trying to show support and ways that a transgender child can be accepted into a new identity without getting the right wingers upset but every little thing I say is getting smashed.

Enjoy your debate, I'm out.

No need for that, Mark. Your comments and input has been valuable and appreciated. This sort of thing is difficult to understand unless you've stood in our shoes and it is a tricky and treacherous slope to deal with culturally and socially and I certainly don't have all the answers.

As Jade pointed out, not all transkids have supportive families and can't transition to being either a boy or a girl and some of us lived through times where gender roles and expectations were a lot more well defined and strict. The PDF I posted above addresses some of the issues where parents are unsupportive.

Quite honestly, a solution that puts the children first would be my priority over making right wingers and their ilk comfortable. Their heads can explode as far as I'm concern if somethings makes children grow up in a healthy, happy and safe environment that produces undamaged and productive adults.

Ba reply to: ElectricUniverse

Is everything right with Capitalism? NO

Is everything wrong with Socialism? NO

Someday maybe we'll be smart enough to find the balance.

originally posted by: Annee
...
We live in a society. We are not islands as some want to believe.

Yes we live in a society, but that has nothing to do with the state dictating how children should be identifying themselves.

originally posted by: Annee
Public school is a privilege offered by our secular government. If you want to call it socialist, go ahead.

Now public schools are a privilege?... It isn't a right anymore for children to have an education? BTW, public school does not mean "socialism"... But the policies being implemented make it more and more socialist. Are we to believe that before socialism there was no education?

originally posted by: Annee
You do not raise a kid. You raise a successful adult that will fit into their future world.

And it is the responsibility of the parents and not the state to help the children indentify themselves and what core values they should have. If the parent out of free will want their child to be raised by the state, then by all means. But this idoctrination of all children without the parents making a decision should never occur.

BTW, last year in France there was a debate about this, many French parents boycotted schools by not taking their children to school once a month and the date was decided in unison over similar attempts by the state to decide how children should define themselves.

Thousands of parents in France received a text message on their mobile telephones last week urging them to keep their children from school on Monday. The collective action was to protest against an alleged new development in French primary schools: the attempt to teach students that “they are not born as boys or girls, but can choose to become one or the other.”
...

www.hurriyetdailynews.com...

Of course, the response by the French government was to threaten parents who did this.

originally posted by: Annee
Getting along socially is the first thing a child should learn. This does not take away from individuality.

The first thing a child should learn should come from the parents, including decisions that affect their education.

originally posted by: Annee
I went to school in the 50s. Gender roles were still defined in that time period. It sucked. I hated it.

We have evolved in a very good way being more diverse in understanding differences.

So, if as a child the state had defined your identity you think you would have been happier?

Did your parents not want to raise you as a girl?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

RE: WASHINGTON TIMES.

The political views of The Washington Times are often described as extremely conservative. The Washington Post reported: "the Times was established by Moon to combat communism and be a conservative alternative to what he perceived as the liberal bias of The Washington Post."

"We're trying to combat communism and we're trying to uphold traditional Judeo-Christian values. The Washington Times is standing up for those values and fighting anything that would tear them down. Causa is doing the same thing, by explaining what the enemy is trying to do."

originally posted by: Annee
...
Someday maybe we'll be smart enough to find the balance.

And the balance is to have the state dictate how children identify themselves? The balance is to label conservatives as a threat to the future meanwhile proclaiming that leftist/socialist policies are the only way to go forward and to "progress"?...

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

RE: WASHINGTON TIMES.

Oh riight, riight, as long as it comes with a slanted leftist view it is the truth then?

What about Janet Napolitano's "rightwing extremist report"? Was that made up to?

...
The Report specifically mentions the following political beliefs that law enforcement should use to determine whether someone is a “rightwing extremist”:

Opposes abortion
Opposes restrictions on firearms
Opposes lax immigration
Opposes the policies of President Obama regarding immigration, citizenship, and the expansion of social programs
Opposes continuation of free trade agreements
Opposes same-sex marriage
Has paranoia of foreign regimes
Fear of Communist regimes
Opposes one world government
Bemoans the decline of U.S. stature in the world.
Upset with loss of U.S. manufacturing jobs to China and India
. . . and the list goes on

The lawsuit was filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan on behalf of nationally syndicated conservative radio talk show host, Michael Savage, Gregg Cunningham (President of the pro-life organization Center for Bio-Ethical Reform, Inc (CBR)), and Iraqi War Marine veteran Kevin Murray. The Law Center claims that Napolitano’s Department (DHS) has violated the First and Fifth Amendment Constitutional rights of these three plaintiffs by attempting to chill their free speech, expressive association, and equal protection rights. The lawsuit further claims that the Department of Homeland Security encourages law enforcement officers throughout the nation to target and report citizens to federal officials as suspicious rightwing extremists and potential terrorists because of their political beliefs.
...

www.thomasmore.org...

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Annee

Please provide links to your claims.

Otherwise they are just your opinion.

You need evidence that the state makes all decisions concerning the education and identification of children in Cuba? It is not enough that millions of Cubans, myself included have escaped and tried to tell our stories to be told by foreigners from outside Cuba, or by castro's thugs that millions of Cubans have been lying, and only the few pro-communists from Cuba and foreigners know the truth?...

What do you want me to post? the statements from Cubans who escaped which has been derided in this website time and again? Do you want the information that the dictatorship feeds to foreigners and has dictated the world should think is happening in Cuba?...

...
Cuba is a socialist state, the State mandates that schools teach the ideas and policies approved by
the Cuban State which follows the Marxist-Leninist ideology.

The Cuban State asks of its children mindless submissive integration to its educational system
without taking into account the idea of individual freedom and individual responsibility within a civic
organization.

Education that is directed to the state in preparation for responsible life in a paternalistic State rather
than to the development of the child's personality tends to exclude the children of a nation as living
human beings with potentialities and capacities to be realized disregarding the implementation of the
holistic characteristic features of the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

III. Some ideas over Cuba's Constitution

Cuba disregards in its Constitution the right of the possession of all human rights. In Cuba it is the
State that orients, foments and promotes education, the culture, and the sciences in their
manifestations established and developed by Marxism- Leninism excluding the right of the child to
follow other ideologies.

The state holds that learning is the function of the socialist State consequently learning centers are
state controlled. Private schools were abolished in 1960, therefore the Cuban child does not come in
contact with information and materials from other national and international sources. Cuba promotes
the formation of the new generations and the preparation of the children, youth and adults for social living, neglecting the development of the child's potentials to its fullest. In order to realize this principle
the Constitution requires participation in political, social activities and military preparation of the child
[...j artistic creation is free to be expressed as long as its content does not conflict with the socialist
Revolution.
...

www.crin.org...


BTW, doesn't anyone remembers some of the statements and even documents that have come not only from Obama's administration about "conservatives being a threat to the future of America"?... These statements have also come from the United States Military Academy "West point".

West Point center cites dangers of ‘far right’ in U.S.
...
The West Point center typically focuses reports on al Qaeda and other Islamic extremists attempting to gain power in Asia, the Middle East and Africa through violence.

But its latest study turns inward and paints a broad brush of people it considers “far right.”

It says anti-federalists “espouse strong convictions regarding the federal government, believing it to be corrupt and tyrannical, with a natural tendency to intrude on individuals’ civil and constitutional rights. Finally, they support civil activism, individual freedoms, and self government. Extremists in the anti-federalist movement direct most their violence against the federal government and its proxies in law enforcement.”

The report also draws a link between the mainstream conservative movement and the violent “far right,” and describes liberals as “future oriented” and conservatives as living in the past.
...

www.washingtontimes.com...

These are steps being taken to have the nation embrace only one form of government... What they call now "progressive" meanwhile painting conservatives with a broad brush claiming we have a link with far right extremists such as white supremacists...

If you don't understand that in this nation there has been an indoctrination "towards the far left" to exclude conservatives and in favor of "the collective at the expense of individualism' then you haven't been paying enough attention.

How interesting since the era Ekron grew up in (1950s) is considered the height of conservatism and yet that society was about anything but a recognition of individualism.

Why is it that the things we all accept as social progress were opposed by those who at the time identified themselves as conservative?

Fear of the future maybe?

Think about it.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

RE: WASHINGTON TIMES.

Oh riight, riight, as long as it comes with a slanted leftist view it is the truth then?

Your extreme Fear Mongering is not for me.

IMO it's going way beyond the actual subject matter of the OP.

You'll need to take this up with someone else.

a reply to: Annee

Riiight, riight. Someone else has a different opinion than you and since you can't argue the point you accuse them of "extreme fear mongering"...

So it is "extreme fear mongering" to want each individual and each family unit/parents themselves decide the moral values and teachings of their children and not have someone else/the state decide for them?