Biggest Gay Lobby Group in America Urges Schools to Ban Words ‘Boy’ and ‘Girl’

a reply to: jude11

I am confused?...

The LGBT community has Lobbyists??

And I missed the part about "banning" the words "boys" or "girls"??

Honestly your excerpt about what they SUGGESTED sounded rational to me? WTF should we be segregating boys and girls in education? They are all students...scholars etc.

Some real hyperbolic homophobia premised in the OP IMO..

a reply to: Indigo5

I think its pretty insensitive that people think that "the GLBTA community" is only gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender... the A is for allies not just asexual or aromantic.

It dawned on me that in this thread, now with some 500 replies, we've heard from the left, the right, liberals, conservatives, bigots, idiots, those that can read and those that can't, gay people plus trans* people and others that think there are better, more inclusive ways to group children than by boy or girl. There's one group we haven't heard from though - teachers and educators and those these suggestions are meant for.

Anyone else find that a bit odd or is this group not part of the ATS demographic and if that's the case, do you think it's their fear of being associated with conspiracy theorists, UFO enthusiasts and some of the controversial topics here?

originally posted by: Biigs
a reply to: Indigo5

I think its pretty insensitive that people think that "the GLBTA community" is only gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender... the A is for allies not just asexual or aromantic.

If you are being funny, I don't get it. If you are being literal. I don't see a reason to care? Just being honest...

originally posted by: EKron
there are better, more inclusive ways to group children than by boy or girl.

That's pretty much it.

Apart from making certain people feel excluded, we don't educate our kids well when we teach them that gender matters when learning. Genitalia seems irrelevant to the end goal of education and resultant success of the students.

Hell...we used to think "boys" were better at math until China and India produced a flood of razor sharp women engineers...now we are playing catch-up.

originally posted by: EKron
It dawned on me that in this thread, now with some 500 replies, we've heard from the left, the right, liberals, conservatives, bigots, idiots, those that can read and those that can't, gay people plus trans* people and others that think there are better, more inclusive ways to group children than by boy or girl. There's one group we haven't heard from though - teachers and educators and those these suggestions are meant for.

Anyone else find that a bit odd or is this group not part of the ATS demographic and if that's the case, do you think it's their fear of being associated with conspiracy theorists, UFO enthusiasts and some of the controversial topics here?

Yes.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
...
Let folks describe themselves as they wish and stop trying to enforce YOUR values on THEM. Stop trying to tell teachers and other parents how to conduct their business.

Simple, really.

Yet what is happening is that you and others like you want everyone else to be define as you see fit. However a child identifies himself or herself psychologically, those children still have sexual organs that defines them mostly as male or female. You can't have all children being inclusive in all activities all the time in school because that would be what would cause more distractions stopping children from actually learning.

It shouldn't be the affair of schools, and officials to tell how children should define themselves. You talk as if every parent would agree with your views, and this is not so.

You went as far as not seeing any problem with male children using the same bathrooms as female children in school.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
...
What is the horror you folks have with shared bathrooms? Are you really that ... prudish?

That's part of the problem of this so called "inclusion of all children in all matters no matter their physical sex."

originally posted by: Annee
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Who's teaching gender reversals? I'm not even sure what you mean by that.
...

The school system. You are simply not aware, or don't want to accept where these teachings began, and what they are trying to accomplish in the end.

...
Now let us imagine something different. Let us imagine that our children have been born instead into a society where life is not organised around the need to produce goods for profit but where people co-operate freely, irrespective of sex, to produce the things they need in such a way that everyone contributes what she or he is able. In such a society children, both boys and girls, are given adequate opportunities to develop their skills and abilities, whatever these might be, without consideration of what is or is not 'natural'.
...
Men and women will not be bound together by pre-determined roles and notions of what is or is not 'natural', or out of economic necessity. Rather they will be free to enter into relationships which are suited to the emotional needs of the particular individuals concerned. In the course of this pamphlet we shall show that the above picture of a non-sexist, socialist society is not a dream or an unattainable utopia but could begin to be a reality now if there were a majority of people who wanted it and were prepared to take the kind of political action necessary to achieve it. We shall show that the idea of current gender roles; as 'natural', and therefore unchangeable, is mistaken. Indeed important changes have already taken place.
...

www.worldsocialism.org...

These are the basics of socialistic policies. To get involved in decisions that should be left to the families of those children, and not to the state trying to dictate how children should define themselves.

originally posted by: Annee
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Like religion, if your culture is so strong that public school might be offensive ---- find a private school.

Really? and you think that every parent who disagrees with your views is able to pay for private school?...

BTW, i know what you will try to do next. First of all, it is not that I am against children or people deciding for themselves what they want to be. What I am against is that the state is getting involved in the identification of children which is a decision that should be left for the parents to be involved in, and decide instead of the state doing so for them.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: markosity1973


As far as political leanings, I heard a lot of the typical right-wing rhetoric that claims that any acts that try for greater equality and inclusion (of which this current topic is a very minor and simple example) are really the minority attempting to seize control over the majority, or the few ruling the many, or other such nonsense statements.

Beg pardon if my characterization of the source of what you were saying was unfair to you.

You are fine.

Sometimes even when someone is on your side, they can challenge what you are putting forward. As I have said, I'm all for inclusion, but one of the things I have learned over my years is that there is only so much change people will stand for.

Unfortunately even the mere suggestion of the slightest change in definition of boy and girl is a change that the vast majority are not prepared to accept. We need to recognise this, accept it and find another way to help the children who are affected by gender identity issues or risk alienating these people even further from mainstream society.

From the testimony I read in this thread from transgender people, the biggest problem they suffer as children is a lack of self confidence. This is where the education system fails many kids badly and a wider program to identify these poor kids and help them learn to grow in this area would be a great place to start in my humble opinion.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I don't think you know what I'm going to do or say next.

Your Fear Factor is scary though. Like off the deep end.

Do you have kids in elementary school? Do you have kids?

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: markosity1973


As far as political leanings, I heard a lot of the typical right-wing rhetoric that claims that any acts that try for greater equality and inclusion (of which this current topic is a very minor and simple example) are really the minority attempting to seize control over the majority, or the few ruling the many, or other such nonsense statements.

Beg pardon if my characterization of the source of what you were saying was unfair to you.

. . . the mere suggestion of the slightest change in definition of boy and girl is a change that the vast majority are not prepared to accept.

Who is doing that?

Who is changing the definition of boy and girl?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: markosity1973


As far as political leanings, I heard a lot of the typical right-wing rhetoric that claims that any acts that try for greater equality and inclusion (of which this current topic is a very minor and simple example) are really the minority attempting to seize control over the majority, or the few ruling the many, or other such nonsense statements.

Beg pardon if my characterization of the source of what you were saying was unfair to you.

. . . the mere suggestion of the slightest change in definition of boy and girl is a change that the vast majority are not prepared to accept.

Who is doing that?

Who is changing the definition of boy and girl?

They are not changing it, but they are asking not to use it. Poorly chosen words on my part I agree.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: markosity1973


As far as political leanings, I heard a lot of the typical right-wing rhetoric that claims that any acts that try for greater equality and inclusion (of which this current topic is a very minor and simple example) are really the minority attempting to seize control over the majority, or the few ruling the many, or other such nonsense statements.

Beg pardon if my characterization of the source of what you were saying was unfair to you.

We need to recognise this, accept it and find another way to help the children who are affected by gender identity issues or risk alienating these people even further from mainstream society.

Seems to me Trans children know if they are boy or girl. They're not the ones who are confused.

Their "packaging" is just opposite of what they themselves know of who they are.

Treat them differently by finding another way?

originally posted by: Annee

Seems to me Trans children know if they are boy or girl. They're not the ones who are confused.

Their "packaging" is just opposite of what they themselves know of who they are.

Treat them differently by finding another way?

That is correct. They do not identify with the genitalia they are born with, that much is clear.

All I am suggesting is that we work with these kids one on one and help them out individually rather than avoid gender specific terms for everyone. I see no problem in helping little johnny assume life as susie and then he can hang with the girls if that is the gender he (now she) identifies with.

In fact here is some testimony on my idea of allowing the kid to be themself and identify as the other gender

Q Daily, a third grader who attends a Brooklyn public school, describes himself as silly, curious and nice — all of the qualities that he likes about people. He is a lover of Michael Jackson, a wearer of trendy hats and isn't shy about dancing in front of a crowd.

And, now that he identifies as a boy, he feels more alive than before.

"It feels like, instead of a dead flower, a growing flower," he said of his transition from girl to boy.

www.wnyc.org...

This is a great success story and everyone wins - no avoiding the term boy and girl because this little girl became one of the boys and will be allowed to divide off with them.

originally posted by: Annee

I don't think you know what I'm going to do or say next.

That was in response to how some members in the past have tried to twist what i write.

originally posted by: Annee
Your Fear Factor is scary though. Like off the deep end.

My fear factor is that i see many of the same policies that destroyed countries like Cuba being implemented in the U.S. And people like you don't understand that there is nothing new to these types of policies. What you call "progress" are some of the very same old ideas implemented in socialist and communist regimes where the state dictated exactly what, and how children should be defined instead of allowing the parents to be involved and decide for what is right for their children.

originally posted by: Annee
Do you have kids in elementary school? Do you have kids?

No, but let me ask you this. Just because you have children you think you have the right to decide how other children should identify themselves? or should it be the responsibility of the parents and not the state/strangers?

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Annee

I don't think you know what I'm going to do or say next.

That was in response to how some members in the past have tried to twist what i write.

There is no problem understanding what you say. You're very clear.

I just don't agree with you.

Want to know specifics on transgender kids in school? Download this 68 page PDF, also from the HRC.

Schools in Transition: A Guide for Supporting Transgender Students in K-12 Schools

Screw all this pussyfooting around. This is the real deal on how to approach all aspects in dealing with transgender children in the school system and one of the best things I've read on the subject. It should be required reading for all educators.

ElectricUniverse, this is just the socialists utopian manifesto you're looking for! My only wish is that this level of awareness, understanding and compassion was around fifty years ago.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Annee

Seems to me Trans children know if they are boy or girl. They're not the ones who are confused.

Their "packaging" is just opposite of what they themselves know of who they are.

Treat them differently by finding another way?

That is correct. They do not identify with the genitalia they are born with, that much is clear.

All I am suggesting is that we work with these kids one on one and help them out individually rather than avoid gender specific terms for everyone. I see no problem in helping little johnny assume life as susie and then he can hang with the girls if that is the gender he (now she) identifies with.

In fact here is some testimony on my idea of allowing the kid to be themself and identify as the other gender

I am a girl. A straight girl.

I did not like being divided by girl/boy physical gender. I thought it was very unfair to be forced into a group simply by how I was born.

I'd rather draw straws and be in a diverse mixed group.

There is very little differences between the genders up to age 12. There is no legitimate reason to separate them.

originally posted by: Annee

I am a girl. A straight girl.

I did not like being divided by girl/boy physical gender. I thought it was very unfair to be forced into a group simply by how I was born.

I'd rather draw straws and be in a diverse mixed group.

There is very little differences between the genders up to age 12. There is no legitimate reason to separate them.

In countries like Cuba there has been "inclusion of all males and females in all activities". This has led to younger and younger children having sex, getting pregnant, and in general being distracted from what school should be about. And since "the state" is the one deciding everything about how children should be taught, what they should be taught, and even how they should think, parents are not allowed to have any say about this indoctrination and have no say on their children's education. The more liberty you give "the state" to dictate how you, and your children should be, and how you should be defined, the less options you have more so since this leads to indoctrination since early childhood to accept what the "state" teaches.

a reply to: MountainLaurel
YOU HAVE THE MOST AMAZING AVATAR!