Abortion and Responsibilties That Follow

a reply to: grimpachi

No, I am being serious about this. This is a complicated issue that if there is a solution needs to be well thought out.

My mistake. I wasn't trying to get into a lot of that because it's more politics than it is about abortion.

The thing is, any solution that anyone comes up with will always cause more problems with something else. That just comes with the territory of having a completely dysfunctional government. I say close the border and ramp up deportations. Every time someone in congress tries to build a fence or begin deporting again, it gets blocked. There's no solution I could state in this thread that likely hasn't been proposed in congress and blocked.

Your solution has its problems as well. People are already taxed enough. And not enough people pay taxes to begin with. Institute a flat tax, bring in manufacturing jobs, get people off of welfare and back to paying taxes. That generates your needed tax revenue without raising taxes on anyone. Why would you build more prisons and juvies instead of building educational facilities. I could be said that poor educations is the problem behind high prison populations. How do you pay for the educators? The same way you'd pay for your prison guards.

We could go on and on poking holes in our solutions and never come up with a solid plan to it all.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: retiredTxn

What it comes down to is the destruction of the family unit and the shift from sexual intercourse as a tool to procreate to a tool for recreational pleasure. Why should the unborn be forced to give up their life for the mistakes of their parents? What do they know of paychecks, childcare, and siblings? It's irresponsibility at its finest.

If I may point it out, forcing those who are wholly unable to provide even a basic necessities life is equally irresponsible. You're encouraging the proliferation of a whole lot of poverty traps this way. Why not work on abolishing that so that future pregnant women might not have to weigh the option of accident baby they can't afford V abortion?

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: retiredTxn

What it comes down to is the destruction of the family unit and the shift from sexual intercourse as a tool to procreate to a tool for recreational pleasure. Why should the unborn be forced to give up their life for the mistakes of their parents? What do they know of paychecks, childcare, and siblings? It's irresponsibility at its finest.

It may well be irresponsible, but it is human nature. I was irresponsible many times in my youth, but it was the '70s, and that's what we did. Have you never experienced SEX FOR PLEASURE, without using it for procreation? Have you never thrown caution to the wind, and forgot about protection? Are folks who do that irresponsible? Maybe so, but they were living life to the fullest and rejoicing in their freedom.

Yes many a baby has been conceived under this situation, and most have been born, raised, and are alive today. There are instances when folks regret their actions, and are forced into a situation where they must make a choice. Is it right or wrong? Not for you or I to decide. It is for them to decide, and come judgement day, for their Higher Power to decide. You do believe in forgiveness, right?

My Higher Power did not give me the job of judging others.

a reply to: Nyiah

Is it equally irresponsible? Where does the responsibility start? I'd say it starts with the two adults considering intercourse to begin with. The driving point behind every thing I've said is this:

If two adults are aren't prepared to take on the responsibility of raising a child, then they shouldn't be having sex.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: Nyiah

Is it equally irresponsible? Where does the responsibility start? I'd say it starts with the two adults considering intercourse to begin with. The driving point behind every thing I've said is this:

If two adults are aren't prepared to take on the responsibility of raising a child, then they shouldn't be having sex.

It's not up to you to tell people when to boink,nor is it up to you to tell people how to handle the aftermath of said boinking.

My tubes are cut, I'm spayed. If I happen to end up pregnant despite that, whatever route I take is mine to decide, not yours. Even my husband understands that much.

originally posted by: retiredTxn
Are folks who do that irresponsible? Maybe so, but they were living life to the fullest and rejoicing in their freedom.

And again, I have to ask the question why the unborn have to pay for their parent's irresponsibility with their lives?

I guess I'm the only one that sees a problem with self satisfaction trumping new life.

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: Nyiah

Is it equally irresponsible? Where does the responsibility start? I'd say it starts with the two adults considering intercourse to begin with. The driving point behind every thing I've said is this:

If two adults are aren't prepared to take on the responsibility of raising a child, then they shouldn't be having sex.

It's not up to you to tell people when to boink,nor is it up to you to tell people how to handle the aftermath of said boinking.

My tubes are cut, I'm spayed. If I happen to end up pregnant despite that, whatever route I take is mine to decide, not yours. Even my husband understands that much.

It's all good. I mean, there's no need to be responsible with your choices because if contraception fails, and a pregnancy isn't wanted, just abort it! Abortion is a great birth control method.

That said, sure it's your route. That doesn't mean I can't call it out for what it is.

a reply to: EternalSolace

I am simply trying to find out if there are any realistic viable solutions.

Of course there are repercussions to any big change, but if it works out for the better then I am for it.

Immigration is a big issue and either way there is a cost associated to it. Immigrants wouldn't come here if there were no jobs for them. Just one aspect would be agriculture you would need to pass more legislation to punish the people hiring them then brace for the price increase in produce and food stuffs associated with agriculture because those illegal laborers worked under the table and for less. Some will say just wait a few years and change the child labor laws to solve that, but I would consider that unacceptable.

As far as juvies and prisons that is just a fact of life that has always happened with an increase of abandoned children. Those children are also at a higher risk of teen pregnancies which feeds back into a cycle of problems.

I all for bringing back manufacturing jobs, but I will need to know how you would accomplish that. The government hasn't had much luck convincing companies to bring them back.

Flat tax sounds good. I just wish it was that simple. There is a lot of opposition to it. Not from me though.

Your right that the government is dysfunctional. I just hope you don't think it would automatically be fixed if abortion was made illegal.


I am just being realistic.

a reply to: retiredTxn

Now that was a post with experience behind it .

Bravo.

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: Nyiah

Is it equally irresponsible? Where does the responsibility start? I'd say it starts with the two adults considering intercourse to begin with. The driving point behind every thing I've said is this:

If two adults are aren't prepared to take on the responsibility of raising a child, then they shouldn't be having sex.

It's not up to you to tell people when to boink,nor is it up to you to tell people how to handle the aftermath of said boinking.

My tubes are cut, I'm spayed. If I happen to end up pregnant despite that, whatever route I take is mine to decide, not yours. Even my husband understands that much.

It's all good. I mean, there's no need to be responsible with your choices because if contraception fails, and a pregnancy isn't wanted, just abort it! Abortion is a great birth control method.

That said, sure it's your route. That doesn't mean I can't call it out for what it is.

You do realize that despite the failure rate of tubals and similar procedures being quite low, that one of the highest risks of said failure is a tubal pregnancy, right? I'm not about to satisfy the whims of someone else and risk a tubal rupture (which can have horrible consequences) because you don't like the alternative. Call it out all you want, I'd rather be ok than some ideological sycophant's poster child.

a reply to: grimpachi

No, I don't believe that banning abortion would fix anything. I just don't believe that the unborn should pay with their lives for our dysfunction either.

a reply to: Nyiah

Funny how you found a way to bend my comments, in your mind, to somehow claim I'm against a life saving procedure in order to find a new base to attack me from and imply I'm an ideological sycophant. I don't remember what kind of debate tactic that is called, but it didn't work.

Care to try again?

Edit

My tubes are cut, I'm spayed. If I happen to end up pregnant despite that, whatever route I take is mine to decide, not yours.

A tubal rupture didn't even occur to me. Matter of fact, all of my opinions and arguments have been no where along of the lines of a medical emergency. So yes, I can understand in that case having a procedure to save your life and cannot fault anyone for that. My mistake and you have my apology for missing your point.

a reply to: EternalSolace

I can understand that you feel that way and I kind of agree, but why stop there. I don't want to see any children go hungry or unloved or anyone go hungry. I think people should be able to make a living wage and education should be available to all who would apply themselves. There are a lot more things like that.

I am just afraid that ill-conceived cures for those ills will be a disguised poison.

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: retiredTxn
Are folks who do that irresponsible? Maybe so, but they were living life to the fullest and rejoicing in their freedom.

And again, I have to ask the question why the unborn have to pay for their parent's irresponsibility with their lives?

I guess I'm the only one that sees a problem with self satisfaction trumping new life.

So, would you have it that anyone who makes a bad or irresponsible choice, should be made to stand up and take their lumps regardless of their personal situation?

Listen, I am the type who wishes abortions would never happen, but far be it for me to tell others how they should live their lives. I am not walking in their shoes, and probably never will be.

No, you are not the only one that sees a problem with how others live and act day to day. Maybe we need a new law that limits one's ability to seek satisfaction through sex. Anyone caught violating this law will immediately have their sexual organs mangled, so as to prevent further self satisfaction.

Is this the way we need to go, or do you have another way? Banning abortions has and never will stop abortions. You are taking the high road without giving any thought to the fact each of us are completely different. What works for you, doesn't work for others.

If someone near and dear to you were brutally raped and became pregnant, would you still be so adamant about your position on abortion?

a reply to: retiredTxn

If you were following the thread, you'd have seen my comment on page 14. I'll quote it for you:

This is solely my opinion and in no way should be taken as anything but...

As always, I base my arguments on the premise of two consenting adults that decide to engage in sexual activities. I don't have the answers to rape or children who are pregnant for whatever reason. It might make me hypocritical in that I separate those circumstances out and a fetus is a fetus. That's fine and I accept that. I'm not trying to detract from the importance that rape, incest, and child pregnancies play, but those circumstances occur far less when compared with consensual adults.

I've said three times in this thread, once already in a reply to you, that I don't have an answer for rape, incest, or child pregnancies. I'm not arguing from the standpoint of rape. It's funny how you bring that up, yet again, in an attempt to back me into an indefensible position. That said, if I were raped, the first thing I'd be doing is going after a "morning after" pill. Why even let it get to the point where one would need an abortion after rape. Other than that, I have no answers or solutions to that problem.

Maybe we need a new law that limits one's ability to seek satisfaction through sex.

Nice appeal to the extremes there. Nowhere did I imply anything of the sort. For the umpteenth time I'll repeat myself. There are consequences to actions. A potential consequence to sex is pregnancy. I believe that if a couple isn't prepared for the potential consequence of seeking out sexual satisfaction, then they should think again before engaging in sex.

You are taking the high road without giving any thought to the fact each of us are completely different. What works for you, doesn't work for others.

It's not about what does and doesn't work for different people. The potential for pregnancy is across the board. So is the penalty the unborn pays because they're unwanted or weren't prepared for.

So, would you have it that anyone who makes a bad or irresponsible choice, should be made to stand up and take their lumps regardless of their personal situation?

Is that not how life works? Doesn't quite seem fair to end someone else's life for your bad choice.





I'm officially bowing out of this thread. It's not that I don't like a 5vs1 debate, but I'm officially seeing doubles on the screen now.


All

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well, I don't know what worked for my three kids. They are all pushing 30 and one child between the three. Except that we started education about sex and babies before they started school. Starting with proper terminology. But I don't know if anyone ever showed my son how to use a condom. But knowledge is key for sure.

a reply to: EternalSolace

So, would you have it that anyone who makes a bad or irresponsible choice, should be made to stand up and take their lumps regardless of their personal situation?

Is that not how life works?

If that was true then there would be multitudes more of bankers and politicians in jail.

I only wish life was fair and even handed.

a reply to: EternalSolace

I have followed the thread since page one, and have seen your responses, however, I am not trying to place you into a position where you feel walled in or unable to defend yourself. I wasn't trying to appeal to the extremes, I'm trying to find a common ground where we can both agree sex for a couple is sometimes not what others want it to be.

Consequences are something not everyone thinks of in the heat of passion. Everything we do has consequences, but at times, the consequences are too great for one to handle. Yes, that is not an excuse, but it may be the result of one making a bad choice. However much you disagree with someones decision, they are ultimately responsible for the choice they make.

Nothing in life is fair. I agree, taking a life is horrible most anytime, especially for a bad choice. But for that person, at that time, it may be, or appear to be, their only choice. There are many things we as a society can do to improve the other choices available to these people. Getting anything done is another matter.

My apologies if you took my post as confrontational, that was not my intent.



to you as well.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well, I don't know what worked for my three kids. They are all pushing 30 and one child between the three. Except that we started education about sex and babies before they started school. Starting with proper terminology. But I don't know if anyone ever showed my son how to use a condom. But knowledge is key for sure.

You know how the saying goes, "Every time we make something idiot proof, they just invent a better idiot."

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Human growth is a gradual thing. It is impossible to determine the exact point you can call a group of cells "human".

Perhaps we can illustrate it using other-than-human life forms, and simple nature....
(AND NO, I am not saying humans are plants or ANYTHING OTHER than a specie of animal known as human beings.....pre-emptive disclaimer there to ward off evil spirits.....)

Is a seed a plant? No. It's a seed. It might or might not become 'viable' depending on the environment. If it is provided with moisture, earth, and sunlight, it becomes a 'sprout' or a 'seedling'. We sowed radish seeds in our garden bed. Some developed into plants (nearly all of them) - but only SOME of them actually produced RADISHES.

Is an acorn an oak? No. It's an acorn. It might be food for squirrels, it might land on concrete or be washed down the sewer in rain runoff...when does it become a "tree"?

Is a drop of water a puddle? No, it's a drop. When does it become a 'drink of water' for a larger life form? Sure, things live in drops of water but that doesn't make them 'puddles' or lakes or rivers or oceans.

I could spend all morning coming up with similar analogies:
eggs and birds - two different, but connected things.
Is a lighted match a forest fire?
etc and so forth

A "baby" - in my opinion is a human being that has sufficiently developed to live on its own, outside the womb.
At its conception, it isn't yet a "human being". Just like an acorn is not an oak tree.

Just wanted to throw that out there. See what sticks.