At Age 3 — Transitioning From Jack To Jackie

originally posted by: blacktie
Puberty is when a lot of sexual identity kicks in, not in nursery school.

We are talking about GENDER identity, which has nothing to do with sexual feelings.

My step-grandson used to play with his big sister's dolls. Know what he does with them? Runs them across the floor, making engine sounds. He has seen many times how his sister plays with her dolls, by hugging them, singing to them and kissing them. But he insists on making them into cars and trucks. He identifies as a B-O-Y. He's not yet 2.

a reply to: redhorse

I wasn't cherry picking anything, i just posted an article for reference, and there are other articles that are similar.

i just think people assume that someone that young can't know he should be a Girl or Boy... how can a 3 year old recall his past life?

www.elitereaders.com...

i completely understand that is different then Gender Identity, but people assume that someone that young doesn't have the capacity to "know" things about his/her self

originally posted by: blacktie
Puberty is when a lot of sexual identity kicks in, not in nursery school.

Good point. So if a child expresses a more masculine or feminine quality or likes to drive tractors, play dress up, put on make up, who cares.

If this process evolves over the years and the kid becomes aware and begins to question, talk to them, express support.

Having said that, and in general, stereotypes and gender roles are still prevelant in today's society. Just turn on the tv, propaganda heaven. If we are to believe the narrative being pushed on us, we're still cavemen.

We have to transcend the idea that one single gender has a particular role throughout life, and in my opinion, the media plays a large part in dispensing this information. I don't like gender roles, perhaps at one point it was necessary, but not today.

ETA: However, that's another subject, but all the more relevant.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: blacktie

Thanks for being that one person that purposely Slurs Transgender People... claps for you

Thank you, Darth. Many people are unaware this is the transgender and transsexual's N-word and was probably used out of ignorance or because it sounded cute. I'm not trying to be the PC police or anything but it is pretty derogatory.

As someone that is somewhat familiar with gender issues, three does sound pretty young and I would hope the parents sought out a professional opinion. Doing too much about this problem can be as bad as not doing enough but I do think kids that young should be encouraged toward the gender role that matches the plumbing. By five or six though, that's a different story entirely.

a reply to: Liquesence

I have a 5 year old grandson and a 2 year old grandson (brothers). The oldest is and always has been quite feminine. His younger sibling very masculine. The oldest boy always enjoyed doing 'girly' things and we all accepted to let him just enjoy life as he wanted. He now, has evolved to more boyish play but will often talk about when he used to be a girl. He says he is a boy now, but he remembers when he was a girl!

The younger sibling actually loves girly things now too. I don't think having the older sibling in this case really makes a difference but I do believe these parents should definitely not rush into such a young child's perception of themselves. They are still exploring and will not truly understand until puberty sets in.

To me, it seems like the parents in this case are not doing this for their child's interest but perhaps more for their own?

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: Daedal

If they identify with either as they grow and begin to question, guide them, make them aware, support them, ultimately it's their life.

Exactly. If the desire to be a girl persists as they grow instead of immediately jumping to accept the desire of a 3 year old because it's impossible to know whether it's truly biological or not at such an age.

If they want to play dress up and wear makeup at three and all that jazz, good for them. I'd have some serious questions for my child if it was a boy, though. Not saying I would forbid it, but I there would be a very lengthy discussion and questions. Automatically accepting that with little question and taking that outside the home is a bit rash, IMO. Or maybe taking it outside the home is better than suppressing it, who knows.

I agree. But questioning a three year old, that's funny.The answers you would get would probably be hilarious.

ETA: I question my 13 year old and can't get a straight answer.

a reply to: EKron

but I do think kids that young should be encouraged toward the gender role that matches the plumbing. By five or six though, that's a different story entirely.

5 or 6? That's insane. The prefrontal cortex doesn't develop until teenage years for one. Hell, it doesn't mature until something like 24 years old for males and 20 for females.

How can a child, who hasn't developed a primary portion of their brain that controls reasoning, possibly be able to make such decisions? With encouragement from parents, I'm sure they will want to be trans. But what parent would encourage that? The attempted rate of suicide for transgender is around 40% along with higher substance abuse.

"Nature" in this case is .3%. Anything above that is nuture.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Liquesence I do believe these parents should definitely not rush into such a young child's perception of themselves. They are still exploring and will not truly understand until puberty sets in.

To me, it seems like the parents in this case are not doing this for their child's interest but perhaps more for their own?

I agree the parents shouldn't rush into such a young child's perception of themselves but completely disagree they will not truly understand until puberty sets in. A seven year old will definitely know and be able to articulate and explain it. If a child of this age is indeed transgender, waiting until puberty kicks in can have horrendous consequence.

a reply to: Daedal

Exploratory questioning. You can still learn enough to help you move forward and better understand what's going on.

originally posted by: ghostrager
5 or 6? That's insane. The prefrontal cortex doesn't develop until teenage years for one. Hell, it doesn't mature until something like 24 years old for males and 20 for females.

How can a child, who hasn't developed a primary portion of their brain that controls reasoning, possibly be able to make such decisions? With encouragement from parents, I'm sure they will want to be trans. But what parent would encourage that? The attempted rate of suicide for transgender is around 40% along with higher substance abuse.

"Nature" in this case is .3%. Anything above that is nuture.

I do believe you're going to get some different and very strong opinions on this matter. Seven year olds are absolutely aware of their internal sense of gender and outside influences can do little to change it. I certainly wouldn't want parents encouraging anything but if it is coming from the child at that age, I would hope the parents would listen and seek professional assistance in dealing with it.

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: Daedal

Exploratory questioning. You can still learn enough to help you love forward and better understand what's going on.

Just don't be surprised when they say the dog told them.

originally posted by: EKron

I agree the parents shouldn't rush into such a young child's perception of themselves but completely disagree they will not truly understand until puberty sets in. A seven year old will definitely know and be able to articulate and explain it. If a child of this age is indeed transgender, waiting until puberty kicks in can have horrendous consequence.

Horrendous consequences? Why would allowing the body's natural evolution of growth cause horrendous consequences? I am curious? I personally do not know any transgendered individuals, but have known both genders of homosexual friends throughout my life. Puberty seemed to be the aha moment for them.

a reply to: Liquesence

At 3 years old sexuality is nether here nor there, nor should it be!

Giving the little fellow a chance to develop before mutilating his body beyond repair would probably be a good idea. If later on in life he still feels the same then its his choice as opposed to his parents, and i use that word loosely considering what they are about to allow.

I was sad when i was a lad because i was not an astronaut luckily my parents did not shoot me into space hence pander to my whims. Well for me anyway. LoL

What a sad and messed up world we live in when ANYONE can think a three year old is mentally capable of making these kind of enormous decisions.

When's that asteroid gonna hit? I sure hope it's soon.

Considering most parents I know let their kids decide what they "want" for breakfast by age 2, this doesn't surprise me. It is 100% the parents fault that the kid grows up entitled, fussy, picky, and messed up. Kids have no clue what is healthy or a balanced diet at age 2, and no clue about countless other things.

That is what parents are for. You are the TEACHER of the child. Not the other way around. You decide those things until it is clear that they can start making sound decisions on their own.

originally posted by: CynConcepts

Horrendous consequences? Why would allowing the body's natural evolution of growth cause horrendous consequences? I am curious? I personally do not know any transgendered individuals, but have known both genders of homosexual friends throughout my life. Puberty seemed to be the aha moment for them.

Although it is kind of disbursed across multiple threads, there is a good deal of recent information and testimony here from a young transitioner that was put on hormone blockers to prevent male puberty then several years later began estrogen treatments and subsequently had sexual reassignment surgery at 17. She's now an attractive and very bright 20 year old with a tremendous future and life ahead of her. Had she undergone male puberty, it would have been just the opposite of the aha moment. It probably would have been a suicidal moment.

Speaking as a 60 year old woman who did not have the benefit of modern understanding and current therapies that was born a boy and did go through male puberty, there are few things that can be as damaging to one's sense of self as seeing your own body turn against you. I would have given anything to avoid it and the resulting consequences when I did transition at 19. Trust me, a seven year old does know what they are inside and what they were meant to be and if puberty contradicts this, it can be completely devastating. I'm still not sure how I survived it.

a reply to: Liquesence

I think that some people *are* born "in the wrong body," so to speak, just as I think that some people are born gay.

I believe a similar thing, but slightly different - I think that gender is not all one thing or another

I think that we tend to see gender as either/or culturally - because we humans have need for categories. Nature doesn't need categories - there are probably millions of variations on a theme. Genetics, hormones, timing - stress, nutrition - all the many things that happen during gestation and then all the many other things that affect us after we're born. Less of this or more of that at certain times will influence us in different ways

Gender is not either this or that. But, we have all these little dresses or pants, these trucks or sparkly tiaras ...these things we use to decorate us and cement our identity

Are the parents right for allowing this in a toddler, since a toddler can't possibly know his or her identity yet, and the social problems and sometimes stigmas that come attached to a kid being this way?

I believe we all are born with an idea of who we are without really having to contemplate it. Some things are innate. Just because we're only 3 doesn't mean we don't react to the world in a way that's completely natural. When those reactions, attractions or preferences don't conform to what is expected - they're treated as an aberration

When do we first have an idea of who we are? Does that happen before we have the language skills to communicate those feelings?

Can we choose who we are? Can we choose to not be who we are? Are we born who we are? Do other people have the right to decide these things for us - whether it's nature or nurture or both?

Nobody wants to risk being a bad parent - people want to do the right thing for their kids. But we know so much more now than we ever did. We also are living in a time when we're freer to think about certain things - which also makes us freer to notice certain things - and then hopefully freer still to accept nature the way it is and not the way we insist it is

Love this topic - identity...

:-)

a reply to: kaylaluv

he'll probably enjoy playing with "Transformers" when he gets a few years older, kids can use their imagination and make them be anything they want

I see rationality is mostly dead.

a reply to: Liquesence



These parents should be ashamed of themselves. I wonder if the gay community supports this? Putting adult concepts and expectations on a 3 year old is pathetic and shameful.