British police calling for knife ban

originally posted by: vor78

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: luthier

Yeah, I know that - but the point still stands, the Constitution can and has been changed. So much for "inalienable rights". With a 2/3rds Congress vote, your gun "rights" can be stripped away.

Yes which is fine. You wont hear me complain if they get a 2/3 vote.

You should complain, because it would mean that Congress has overstepped its authority. Congress can only propose an amendment. It requires a 3/4 majority of state legislatures (or state ratifying conventions) to ratify a Constitutional amendment.

My bad i was mixing up overturning a supreme court case and ratifting an amendment.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: luthier

So murder rates tend to be lower in states with less poverty and minorities, so what? You could probably say the same thing about any developed country.

It doesn't change the fact that the US has at least a 4x higher murder rate than the UK, you gotta own that mate!

I do own it. I am just not ignorant as to why it happens. Does the uk have the murder, drug, and organized crime capital boardering it? No it does not. If mexico was where ireland is you would have much higher crime.

Like i said crime in london is increasing. Why? Must be guns laws are changing. Or it could be lots of poor immigrants and refugees being stuffed in a city with no sociological plan or solution.

The us murder rate is not reflective of gun ownership. We have the most guns per capita and not the highest homicide per capita.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: luthier

So murder rates tend to be lower in states with less poverty and minorities, so what? You could probably say the same thing about any developed country.

It doesn't change the fact that the US has at least a 4x higher murder rate than the UK, you gotta own that mate!

Does the uk have the murder, drug, and organized crime capital boardering it? No it does not. If mexico was where ireland is you would have much higher crime.

But Mexico's drug wars are a direct result of supplying US citizens. Also, I posted a link just the other day, where the FBI claimed over 60% of guns in Mexico originated in the US.

So the question is, are Mexico's problems flowing north, or are the problems in the US flowing south?

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: luthier

So murder rates tend to be lower in states with less poverty and minorities, so what? You could probably say the same thing about any developed country.

It doesn't change the fact that the US has at least a 4x higher murder rate than the UK, you gotta own that mate!

Does the uk have the murder, drug, and organized crime capital boardering it? No it does not. If mexico was where ireland is you would have much higher crime.

But Mexico's drug wars are a direct result of supplying US citizens. Also, I posted a link just the other day, where the FBI claimed over 60% of guns in Mexico originated in the US.

So the question is, are Mexico's problems flowing north, or are the problems in the US flowing south?

Exactly. Does it matter? The American public and gun owners have nothing to do with that other than the same problems the uk has (people like drugs). The corruption within government does. Does the uk have 100's of millions of illegal aliens? No because your government takes illegal immigration seriously. Did your government get caught running illegal guns to mexico?

If anything you make the argument for the importance of the 2nd. We obviously dont have a government protecting peoples property and liberty.

a reply to: luthier

The thing is........ no body is disagreeing with you as to the reasons why......... people are just saying that guns will raise the rate as they make it so much easier to murder and the use of a gun is more likely to be fatal and it's so quick.

I haven't seen a single person here solely blame firearms for the high murder rate in the states and that if the UK had looser gun laws then our murder rate would have an increase too.

originally posted by: luthier
No the unsolved murder cases you speak of are ones that have gone to trial without conviction.

Um just asked you to clarify the sources you cited. Homicides are easy to record and the UK defines a homicide as below. This suggests unsolved homicides are also recorded. Therefore, the large difference in you statistics where you suggest a large number of UK homicides are not part of the official figures is wrong.

Is there a difference between murder and homicide?
The term ‘homicide’ covers the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide. Murder and manslaughter are common law offences that have never been defined by statute (although they have been modified by statute). The offence of infanticide was created by the Infanticide Act 1922.

How does the criminal justice system respond to homicide?
Home Office figures indicate that the vast majority of murders are solved, and the those who commit the murders are brought to justice. While unsolved cases do occasionally occur, but they are a small minority of overall homicides.

Crime Links

As a matter of record, the homicide rate in the UK (England and Wales) is less than1.5 per 100,000. It’s greater 5 per 100,000 in the US. There are myriad sources out there that back this up and I quoted the ONS (UK) and FBI (US) on page 4 as these are the nationally recorded rates.

I agree the UK and US have very different ways of recording crime (attacking someone with a feather is a violent crime in the UK), but homicide is homicide and that's not different. Unless of course the US don't record manslaughter, so their rate would be even higher.

Yeah there's mountains of evidence showing a very strong association with poverty and in paticular the rich-poor divide in areas is associated with much more violent crime.

Of course violent crime is still going to exist if people just ban guns and do nothing to address the other two.

What myself and I guess other members on here are trying to say is it's far easier for someone to pull out a gun, press a button and kill someone who could be 5 - 5000 ft away then have to be face to face, eye to eye and repeatedly attacking someone with an object as anyone can do the former but it takes a special kind of warped and depraved mind to do the latter. Plus being stabbed causes a lot less damage then being shot.

originally posted by: bastion
Plus being stabbed causes a lot less damage then being shot.

Depends where you get stabbed.
I stabbed a late-night burglar in the shoulder many many years ago, it wasn't pretty but he lived as I called the police/ambulance, and tended his wound when I no longer faced any threat.
I wasn't even cautioned by the police for that.
I like UK justice where I live.

originally posted by: b14warrior
a reply to: luthier

The thing is........ no body is disagreeing with you as to the reasons why......... people are just saying that guns will raise the rate as they make it so much easier to murder and the use of a gun is more likely to be fatal and it's so quick.

I haven't seen a single person here solely blame firearms for the high murder rate in the states and that if the UK had looser gun laws then our murder rate would have an increase too.

Ok but if you look at stats after gun bans this isnt true is all i am saying. Please look up those stats. The only thing that effected hommicide rates were more police enforcement in the uk. The rate of decline in violent crime did not change at all after bans.

What about the 65,000 people in the us who defend themselves with guns. You have a meth head break into your house a knife or bat wont do it.

originally posted by: luthier
You have a meth head break into your house a knife or bat wont do it.

Depends if you live in a society where lower class criminals have easy access to firearms.
My kitchen knife did a good job dealing with a junkie burglar, as explained in the post above yours.
He didn't have a firearm though, same as most of our addict criminals.
UK/US, Apples/Oranges.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: bastion
Plus being stabbed causes a lot less damage then being shot.

Depends where you get stabbed.
I stabbed a late-night burglar in the shoulder many many years ago, it wasn't pretty but he lived as I called the police/ambulance, and tended his wound when I no longer faced any threat.
I wasn't even cautioned by the police for that.
I like UK justice where I live.

Very true, there's a lot of places where a stab wound could be lethal, but in most they'll just temporarily incapacitate someone like in your case (note: just to be clear I'm not advising people stab people, just the difference in the wounds a knife and a bullet make).

Agreed with the apples and oranges post. We don't have meth in the UK (apart from very rarely in the gay club scene) the junkies over here are generally off their heads on heroin or benzos so can barely walk let alone put up much of a fight. We have honor and a stiff upper lip.

For example this 92 year old woman stopped her friend being mugged by saying 'oh no you don't' and driving towards him with her mobility scooter -- we simply don't have the type of crime the US has: We have honor and a stiff upper lip.

'However, the would-be robber was soon to regret his action, as Mrs Mason shouted 'Oh, no you don't,' and slammed on the accelerator of her scooter.

The attacker was knocked to the ground, and the motorised pair sped off into the distance.

Speaking after the robbery attempt, the great-grandmothers said they refused to let the 'weasel' bring them down.'

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

Here's the mug shot of an armed robber after a 72 year old unarmed pensioner beat him up with his fists:
'Senior citizen Frank Corti, 72, a former junior boxing champion is still a bit handy with his dukes.

And when he spotted the aforementioned intruder, Gregory McCalium, in his hallway he sprang into action and delivered two right hooks.

The blows were so powerful that McCalium, who had just lunged at Mr Corti with the knife, was left looking like he had been in 'a car accident'.

The pensioner then restrained him until police arrived. He was jailed for four and a half years yesterday after a judge told him he had 'got what he deserved'.

Glory days: A newspaper cutting from the Oxford Mail in 1954 showing Mr Corti at the age of 16. He had just won the National Association of Boy's Clubs Boxing Championships

After sentencing, Mr Corti said: 'I was scared when he first drew the knife but most people would have acted in the same way. If you can't defend what's yours, where are we at?'

www.dailymail.co.uk...

We don't need or want guns in the UK, even people in their 90s can beat up muggers with their own two hands.

originally posted by: bastion
We don't need or want guns in the UK

Yeah, I agree with that.
It's also a little funny that so many US folk seem to think we would be a better society with chav/ned/youths having easy access to firearms.

...who wants to be like America?!

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: luthier
You have a meth head break into your house a knife or bat wont do it.

Depends if you live in a society where lower class criminals have easy access to firearms.
My kitchen knife did a good job dealing with a junkie burglar, as explained in the post above yours.
He didn't have a firearm though, same as most of our addict criminals.
UK/US, Apples/Oranges.

Ok but your one case isnt the whole. Plenty of people have been murdered in England by knives in break ins. If you have a meth head jacked up on speed its a bit different than say a heroine addict looking for a fix. Meth heads fight through gun shots tasers and stabbings all the time.

Problem is it is apples and oranges. You cant say gun control even slowa homicide and anectodotal situations dont prove what the statisitcs show. The numbers everyone talks about so much are gang warfare between rivals. They also beat and stab each other to death at higher rates than england why is that?

Just because you think gun bans work based on "common sense" in no way proves they actually work.

How would the us wrangle up all the guns? Cats out of the bag. This issue is purely political. By passing gun laws politicians make people feel like they did something. In the UK it wasnt until many years later after the last bans in 97 that you added many more police. That was the only data that showed an effective drop in crimw rates.

Sure you are right to a degree in theory. However, in the US taking guns from legal owners would immediately put nearly 100,000 people a year at risk to be murdered by someone with illegal weapons. Its like passing un informed enviornmental law (meaning not planning how to move jobs not that it isnt needed) you pass the law then all of a sudden unemployment skyrockets from industry moving out of the state (this happened in new england).

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: luthier
You have a meth head break into your house a knife or bat wont do it.

Depends if you live in a society where lower class criminals have easy access to firearms.
My kitchen knife did a good job dealing with a junkie burglar, as explained in the post above yours.
He didn't have a firearm though, same as most of our addict criminals.
UK/US, Apples/Oranges.

Ok but your one case isnt the whole. Plenty of people have been murdered in England by knives in break ins. If you have a meth head jacked up on speed its a bit different than say a heroine addict looking for a fix. Meth heads fight through gun shots tasers and stabbings all the time.

Problem is it is apples and oranges. You cant say gun control even slowa homicide and anectodotal situations dont prove what the statisitcs show. The numbers everyone talks about so much are gang warfare between rivals. They also beat and stab each other to death at higher rates than england why is that?

Just because you think gun bans work based on "common sense" in no way proves they actually work.

How would the us wrangle up all the guns? Cats out of the bag. This issue is purely political. By passing gun laws politicians make people feel like they did something. In the UK it wasnt until many years later after the last bans in 97 that you added many more police. That was the only data that showed an effective drop in crimw rates.

Sure you are right to a degree in theory. However, in the US taking guns from legal owners would immediately put nearly 100,000 people a year at risk to be murdered by someone with illegal weapons. Its like passing un informed enviornmental law (meaning not planning how to move jobs not that it isnt needed) you pass the law then all of a sudden unemployment skyrockets from industry moving out of the state (this happened in new england).

Wow, many assertions, but I've said nothing in this thread about gun bans in the US, I have only spoken about the desirable situation in the UK.
You can do what you like, have personal tank divisions for all I care, I don't live in the US so I don't give a toss.

Here in the UK we are as violent as you guys are, but it is more difficult to kill each other in a moment of madness/anger/fear.
That pleases me, but it seems you find controversy in such a mindset.
I couldn't care less if you do.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: luthier
You have a meth head break into your house a knife or bat wont do it.

Depends if you live in a society where lower class criminals have easy access to firearms.
My kitchen knife did a good job dealing with a junkie burglar, as explained in the post above yours.
He didn't have a firearm though, same as most of our addict criminals.
UK/US, Apples/Oranges.

Ok but your one case isnt the whole. Plenty of people have been murdered in England by knives in break ins. If you have a meth head jacked up on speed its a bit different than say a heroine addict looking for a fix. Meth heads fight through gun shots tasers and stabbings all the time.

Problem is it is apples and oranges. You cant say gun control even slowa homicide and anectodotal situations dont prove what the statisitcs show. The numbers everyone talks about so much are gang warfare between rivals. They also beat and stab each other to death at higher rates than england why is that?

Just because you think gun bans work based on "common sense" in no way proves they actually work.

How would the us wrangle up all the guns? Cats out of the bag. This issue is purely political. By passing gun laws politicians make people feel like they did something. In the UK it wasnt until many years later after the last bans in 97 that you added many more police. That was the only data that showed an effective drop in crimw rates.

Sure you are right to a degree in theory. However, in the US taking guns from legal owners would immediately put nearly 100,000 people a year at risk to be murdered by someone with illegal weapons. Its like passing un informed enviornmental law (meaning not planning how to move jobs not that it isnt needed) you pass the law then all of a sudden unemployment skyrockets from industry moving out of the state (this happened in new england).

Wow, many assertions, but I've said nothing in this thread about gun bans in the US, I have only spoken about the desirable situation in the UK.
You can do what you like, have personal tank divisions for all I care, I don't live in the US so I don't give a toss.

Here in the UK we are as violent as you guys are, but it is more difficult to kill each other in a moment of madness/anger/fear.
That pleases me, but it seems you find controversy in such a mindset.
I couldn't care less if you do.

Fair enough.

My only remark was stats dont prove that the bans in the uk effected the homicide rate.

originally posted by: luthier
Fair enough.

My only remark was stats dont prove that the bans in the uk effected the homicide rate.

Fair enough, but even a small child could answer the question "Are people more easily able to kill each other with a gun than a knife?".

Here in the UK we kill less of each other while access to firearms is regulated.
I say again, I don't give a toss what you do in the US, our firearms laws work pretty well for us in the UK.

originally posted by: intrepid
So is this about a British knife ban or American gun rights?

Well, Britain banned guns and still have people killing each other with knives.

So many people killing each other with knives that they now want to ban knives.

Eventually, the knife banning will win and people will have to learn to cook without knives.

Then come forks! You can do some mighty good damage with sharpened fork tines!

Oh, don't forget barbeque skewers, the metal ones must be banned too, they can kill if properly aimed.

How about letter openers? Yep, gotta be banned, they can kill as thoroughly as any knife.

OMG, almost forgot nail guns! Especially the battery operated nail guns, got to be banned and confiscated immediately!

Must also ban fireplace pokers, ever seen an old Sherlock Holmes movie?

Oh, yes battery operated chain saws, definitely a must to ban this murder weapon.

My point? If people want to kill, they will, you take away guns, there are knives, you take away knives there are, well see the list provided.

It is people who are the problem,
not the means used to kill.

So ban the creation of more people and
confiscate and destroy people prone to anger
because anger is the root cause of all the killing
so ban anger in public
with the penalty of destruction of the weapon (the person)
problem solved! No more wanton killing of humans!


(satire, but will hit home with people because it will
become the extension once people go down the road
of blaming the instrument and not the person wielding
the weapon)

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So many people killing each other with knives that they now want to ban knives.

Nope, you made that up, we can still carry knives if we have reason to. There are no calls by government or police to change the law.
...maybe read all of a thread first before trying to be funny/smart/clever?

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: luthier
Fair enough.

My only remark was stats dont prove that the bans in the uk effected the homicide rate.

Fair enough, but even a small child could answer the question "Are people more easily able to kill each other with a gun than a knife?".

Here in the UK we kill less of each other while access to firearms is regulated.
I say again, I don't give a toss what you do in the US, our firearms laws work pretty well for us in the UK.

Small children are gullable and believe anything without fact.

So you are telling me common sense is a scientific argument?

The world must be cooling we had a very long and cold winter.

Or i could look at the real data and see that's not true.

Look it up yourself. Your crime rate was not effected by gun control.

The

number of incidents you refer to crimes of passion are incidental statistically (not to the dead people) compaired to people who already decided to kill someone else.

I am not telling you its wrong foe the uk to do what they did, however insulting and elitest you may be we have more people immigrate to the us (you said who wants to move to the us) than the uk.

I dont know why personally i want to get the heck out before it implodes.

I believe in some gun restrictions and testing for certain fire arms especially hand guns. Jfi.

All i am doing is saying there isnt much data to support your theory.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Please read the thread, none of what you posted is true, there's no gun or knife ban in the UK and there never will be.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: bastion
We don't need or want guns in the UK

Yeah, I agree with that.
It's also a little funny that so many US folk seem to think we would be a better society with chav/ned/youths having easy access to firearms.

...who wants to be like America?!

Now that would be plain terrifying if a load of 12 year old scallies were tooled up. Can imagine them being outside every shop slurring 'go in shop for me and buy some vodka/smokes or I'll brap ya'.