British police calling for knife ban

originally posted by: luthier
All i am doing is saying there isn't much data to support your theory.

I haven't presented any 'theory', how about stop making things up.
...oh and one does not need to be gullible to know that it is easier to kill someone with a firearm compared to a knife. That is obvious.
Your argument about gullible children is lame.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So many people killing each other with knives that they now want to ban knives.

Nope, you made that up, we can still carry knives if we have reason to. There are no calls by government or police to change the law.
...maybe read all of a thread first before trying to be funny/smart/clever?

The calls to ban knives in public will be coming. Mark my words, this is just the beginning. This is exactly how this sort of nanny state progressive liberalism works. Start with rhetoric and asking for cooperation, then highlight the rare horrific event, and then call for laws.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So many people killing each other with knives that they now want to ban knives.

Nope, you made that up, we can still carry knives if we have reason to. There are no calls by government or police to change the law.
...maybe read all of a thread first before trying to be funny/smart/clever?

The calls to ban knives in public will be coming. Mark my words, this is just the beginning. This is exactly how this sort of nanny state progressive liberalism works. Start with rhetoric and asking for cooperation, then highlight the rare horrific event, and then call for laws.

That's your opinion from the other side of the Atlantic.
Either way though it is your invention alone, we can still carry knives if we have any reason to. There are no calls by government or police to change the law.

*Edit*
I'm going to the shop in a minute or two with a 3 inch folding blade on my keys.
I was arrested last year, and released with my knife/firesteel/keys no problem.
You clearly have a tabloid image of UK law.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So many people killing each other with knives that they now want to ban knives.

Nope, you made that up, we can still carry knives if we have reason to. There are no calls by government or police to change the law.
...maybe read all of a thread first before trying to be funny/smart/clever?

The calls to ban knives in public will be coming. Mark my words, this is just the beginning. This is exactly how this sort of nanny state progressive liberalism works. Start with rhetoric and asking for cooperation, then highlight the rare horrific event, and then call for laws.

No it wont. The original law banning flick knives was passed on 13 June 1959 - in 1998 this was improved upon so people and police would use 'basic common sense' about what is a good reason to have a knife in public 'i.e sport, work, leisure - basically everything apart from using it as a weapon against a person and the sale of hunting style knives to under 18s was banned. There will never be a ban on all knives.

there has never been any rhetoric or calls for an outright ban.

a reply to: bastion

How many times has that been said in this topic?!
Drama queens is all, scared their rights are being trampled on when they ain't.

a reply to: grainofsand

Yup as I said before I was stopped at a train station with a 20 inxh machete strapped to my backpack.
An older cop and a younger one. The younger one wanted to arrest me the older one had a chat with me and knew I was using it for camping and said glad you didn't have it concealed and carry on.

a reply to: grainofsand

I think most are not from the uk and think we are all disarmed.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: grainofsand

Yup as I said before I was stopped at a train station with a 20 inxh machete strapped to my backpack.
An older cop and a younger one. The younger one wanted to arrest me the older one had a chat with me and knew I was using it for camping and said glad you didn't have it concealed and carry on.

Had similar with a parang in sheath on my bergen - I was in cardiff train station around 1am waiting for a train with several others in the room - the police came to ask if everyone was ok as technically the station was closing for the night, as we were all stuck until 6am - ish he allowed us all to sleep in there for the night and just asked us to try and not walk around as he was bending the rules a bit.

He can't have missed the knife but never even mentioned it as I was lying top of a survival bag on the floor and when he asked what train I waiting for I responded 'merthyr tydfyll' which is where all the army train so I clearly had it on me for good reason and everyone was fine with me having it.

a reply to: boymonkey74

I know, it's ridiculous.
I also own a beautiful vintage Barnett Commando crossbow.
I use it in the garden, and sometimes the house...my lath and plaster walls, I'll repair them as I see fit.
I sometimes carry it to a friends to target practice/kill rabbits, no problem.
I could get a gun licence, I've no convictions stopping me, I'm just happy hunting with my xbow.

...perhaps my manhood is smaller because I cannot legally own an AR15

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: b14warrior
a reply to: luthier

The thing is........ no body is disagreeing with you as to the reasons why......... people are just saying that guns will raise the rate as they make it so much easier to murder and the use of a gun is more likely to be fatal and it's so quick.

I haven't seen a single person here solely blame firearms for the high murder rate in the states and that if the UK had looser gun laws then our murder rate would have an increase too.

Ok but if you look at stats after gun bans this isnt true is all i am saying. Please look up those stats. The only thing that effected hommicide rates were more police enforcement in the uk. The rate of decline in violent crime did not change at all after bans.

What about the 65,000 people in the us who defend themselves with guns. You have a meth head break into your house a knife or bat wont do it.

The thing is that before those gun bans almost nobody had guns anyway. I'm mystified as to why anybody wouldn't see that more guns makes it easier to kill and therefore the murder rate will be higher. It's not a cause of murder it just makes it easier and more likely that if somebody uses said weapon, it will result in a death.

If I was in the States then I probably would own a firearm and keep it in my drawer next to my bed and if I could legally carry it I possibly would too as the chances of somebody breaking into my and having a gun of attacking me on the street and having a gun are higher.

I live in a country where if somebody attacks me or breaks into my house then it is EXTREMELY rare that they would have a firearm.

So if I had a choice between somebody breaking into my house and have us both armed with things like bats or knives or a gun each then I'd choose bats or knives as if be less likely to die. Of course there is still a good chance I would die but guns would just up the ante.
Then the police would have to carry guns too and before you know it murder becomes easier therefore raising the murder rate and police are running round shooting and killing when there is no need.

I am happy living in a country where the most deadly weapon you are likely to be confronted with is a bat or knife.
If you are happy in a country with lots of guns then fine, I'm not arguing against US laws I am simply saying that combined with other factors it will contribute to a higher murder rate.

I was stabbed in the gut once working doors and witnessed a few knife attacks where fights had spilled outside or somebody had come back after being turfed.

At close range I would much rather deal with an attacker who has a gun than a knife. Knives are absolutely terrifying even when the person wielding it doesn't have any formal training.

Disarming a handgun is comparitively quite simple biomechanics that doesn't require a huge amount of fine motor skill. Disarming a knife when your opponent is determined is incredibly difficult with a huge number of possible angles to be attacked from and you likely won't even know you've been stabbed until the encounter is over due to the adrenalin which is what happened to me. If you've ever seen a video of a prison shanking that's the kind of relentless ferocity you can expect. Over in seconds and the damage is horrific.

I'm not sure I believe in the 21 foot rule but within 10-15 feet knife guy will beat gun guy most times unless gun guy has already drawn the weapon.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: luthier
You have a meth head break into your house a knife or bat wont do it.

Depends if you live in a society where lower class criminals have easy access to firearms.
My kitchen knife did a good job dealing with a junkie burglar, as explained in the post above yours.
He didn't have a firearm though, same as most of our addict criminals.
UK/US, Apples/Oranges.

Ok but your one case isnt the whole. Plenty of people have been murdered in England by knives in break ins. If you have a meth head jacked up on speed its a bit different than say a heroine addict looking for a fix. Meth heads fight through gun shots tasers and stabbings all the time.

Problem is it is apples and oranges. You cant say gun control even slowa homicide and anectodotal situations dont prove what the statisitcs show. The numbers everyone talks about so much are gang warfare between rivals. They also beat and stab each other to death at higher rates than england why is that?

Just because you think gun bans work based on "common sense" in no way proves they actually work.

How would the us wrangle up all the guns? Cats out of the bag. This issue is purely political. By passing gun laws politicians make people feel like they did something. In the UK it wasnt until many years later after the last bans in 97 that you added many more police. That was the only data that showed an effective drop in crimw rates.

Sure you are right to a degree in theory. However, in the US taking guns from legal owners would immediately put nearly 100,000 people a year at risk to be murdered by someone with illegal weapons. Its like passing un informed enviornmental law (meaning not planning how to move jobs not that it isnt needed) you pass the law then all of a sudden unemployment skyrockets from industry moving out of the state (this happened in new england).

It's like you aren't even reading what people are saying.
Many people have said that a gun ban wouldn't work in the States and would put many people at risk as there are already too many guns in the wrong hands but it works in the UK as there are so few guns, thus making it harder to kill people.

You are suggesting giving that junkie that breaks into the house with a knife........ a gun instead!!!! What an amazing idea that is........ make guns illegal so that I can protect my home and the chances of the burglar having a gun just shot up too and my with it my chances of dying! Yippeee!
You say 'plenty of people have been murdered by knives in break ins' and you solution would be to make guns more widely available......... wow, you don't see the irony in that?
America is living proof that guns get into the wrong hands and they would get into the wrong hands all the time here too.

Gun control works in the UK and the British public are very happy with it.
It's very rare the British are pleased with anything the government does so it shows how much people really feel about it.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: intrepid
While you're all gladhanding and making fun of the Brits, maybe you should read the source. It's not a "ban". It's an "amnesty program" that is VOLUNTARY. Everyone will still be able to cut their steaks.

Not according to the quotes from the article I posted about and the sources for the quotes. This is just the beginning. VERY similar to how the gun "ban" started and they want extremely restrictive licensing on knives similar to firearms....

You can call it what you like, but slowly boil a frog and they don't react....they sit peacefully until cooked.

It must be a very slow boil, that article was dated 1996...

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Skid Mark
I was under the impression that the carrying of knives, at least, was illegal already.

Correct. From the article, spoken by home office minister Vernon Coaker

"If you carry a knife out of self-defence, you run the risk of having it turned on you. Carrying a knife is illegal and will not be tolerated. It could land you four years in prison."

Incorrect, in so much as it's a summary of a more complicated system.

Knives that meet certain criteria have no restrictions on being carried, except in certain places (ie courts). Those criteria are (i) folding, (ii) non-locking, and (iii) sub-3" blade.

Nearly all other knives have a "reasonable excuse" requirement. Workmen, campers, fishermen, whatever - if you're in a situation where there is a genuine use for a knife, you're not restricted. What you can't do is claim you're carrying it "just in case" you happen to run into some rope you need to cut while shopping for food. For "just in case" scenarios, you can always carry the unrestricted knives.

A very small subset of items are always considered offensive and you'll be hard-pressed to find a reasonable excuse that the courts would except.

I still don't agree with it, but then again I was brought up in the arse-end of farming country where everyone 6+ and older had a knife on them, and we somehow managed to avoid killing each other. The idea of not having at least a penknife on you at all times is just... silly to me. Nothing to do with self-defence or using it as a weapon, it's just common sense and very handy to have one.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So many people killing each other with knives that they now want to ban knives.

Nope, you made that up, we can still carry knives if we have reason to. There are no calls by government or police to change the law.
...maybe read all of a thread first before trying to be funny/smart/clever?

The calls to ban knives in public will be coming. Mark my words, this is just the beginning. This is exactly how this sort of nanny state progressive liberalism works. Start with rhetoric and asking for cooperation, then highlight the rare horrific event, and then call for laws.

That's your opinion from the other side of the Atlantic.
Either way though it is your invention alone, we can still carry knives if we have any reason to. There are no calls by government or police to change the law.

*Edit*
I'm going to the shop in a minute or two with a 3 inch folding blade on my keys.
I was arrested last year, and released with my knife/firesteel/keys no problem.
You clearly have a tabloid image of UK law.

Doesn't it bother you at all that some police officer has to determine if you have a "valid reason" to possess and object, even if you have not harmed or threatened anyone with said object?

It sounds very subjective to me.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Actually, no, the Police Officer doesn't get to determine anything.

They can arrest you on "suspicion" of carrying an offensive weapon, but if you maintain that you had a valid reason then you can prove that in court in front of a Judge/Jury/Magistrate.

That's if it even passes the CPS who have a high standard of proof required to even take a case to court, much less actually convict.

That said, most Police in the UK are actually perfectly reasonable. Again, the difference between the UK and the US is stark. Your cops want to control you, "enforce" the law and are very aggressive. Ours are charged with keeping the peace, not enforcing the law and provided you give a perfectly reasonable reason, then your fine.

Let's face it, if you have a knife on you for work/fishing/hunting/crafting etc then you have a reasonable reason. If you're just carrying it around simply for giggles, or "self defence" or to go and shank that dude from the wrong post code, then you don't have a reasonable reason.

It isn't rocket science and our Police are well trained, intelligent people.

It actually says a lot about you Americans that you're so fearful of the Police - even when I have been bang to rights guilty of a crime, I've never felt any kind of fear and as long you treat them with civility and respect, you get it back - I've been allowed to wander freely around the cell block, go for a fag, even been brought McDonalds all because I was Polite and courteous.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: NavyDoc

Actually, no, the Police Officer doesn't get to determine anything.

They can arrest you on "suspicion" of carrying an offensive weapon, but if you maintain that you had a valid reason then you can prove that in court in front of a Judge/Jury/Magistrate.

That's if it even passes the CPS who have a high standard of proof required to even take a case to court, much less actually convict.

That said, most Police in the UK are actually perfectly reasonable. Again, the difference between the UK and the US is stark. Your cops want to control you, "enforce" the law and are very aggressive. Ours are charged with keeping the peace, not enforcing the law and provided you give a perfectly reasonable reason, then your fine.

Let's face it, if you have a knife on you for work/fishing/hunting/crafting etc then you have a reasonable reason. If you're just carrying it around simply for giggles, or "self defence" or to go and shank that dude from the wrong post code, then you don't have a reasonable reason.

It isn't rocket science and our Police are well trained, intelligent people.

It actually says a lot about you Americans that you're so fearful of the Police - even when I have been bang to rights guilty of a crime, I've never felt any kind of fear and as long you treat them with civility and respect, you get it back - I've been allowed to wander freely around the cell block, go for a fag, even been brought McDonalds all because I was Polite and courteous.

Right. You can be arrested and made to defend yourself in court for carrying an object that the officer thought you didn't have a "valid reason" even if you've harmed no one.

a reply to: stumason

Had so many funny run ins with our cops.

When I was about 19 I copped off with a girl and had a fumble on a park bench and because of the amount of booze I fell asleep.
I was awoken by two coppers who asked me if I had a place to sleep and I explained my situation and noticed the girl and my wallet was gone.
The cops thought it was piss funny and offered me a lift in the back of their dog van..that was a fun trip right to my door.

But yeah even when I ran pubs I dealt with the police alot after bar fights and stuff and If you are ok with them they are ok with you.
East end murder squad detectives...man they are intense people who liked a beer.
Like many threads and stuff it is different in the UK it works at the moment it is different in the USA.
USA folk will stick up for their culture and we will for ours.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: NavyDoc

Actually, no, the Police Officer doesn't get to determine anything.

They can arrest you on "suspicion" of carrying an offensive weapon, but if you maintain that you had a valid reason then you can prove that in court in front of a Judge/Jury/Magistrate.

That's if it even passes the CPS who have a high standard of proof required to even take a case to court, much less actually convict.

That said, most Police in the UK are actually perfectly reasonable. Again, the difference between the UK and the US is stark. Your cops want to control you, "enforce" the law and are very aggressive. Ours are charged with keeping the peace, not enforcing the law and provided you give a perfectly reasonable reason, then your fine.

Let's face it, if you have a knife on you for work/fishing/hunting/crafting etc then you have a reasonable reason. If you're just carrying it around simply for giggles, or "self defence" or to go and shank that dude from the wrong post code, then you don't have a reasonable reason.

It isn't rocket science and our Police are well trained, intelligent people.

It actually says a lot about you Americans that you're so fearful of the Police - even when I have been bang to rights guilty of a crime, I've never felt any kind of fear and as long you treat them with civility and respect, you get it back - I've been allowed to wander freely around the cell block, go for a fag, even been brought McDonalds all because I was Polite and courteous.

Right. You can be arrested and made to defend yourself in court for carrying an object that the officer thought you didn't have a "valid reason" even if you've harmed no one.

The officer is unlikley to arrest you if you are in an enviroment that could justify carrying a knife.

Walking through a town centre, shopping in a supermarket or drinking in a pub are not those enviroments and you would get in trouble.

I think most British people agree that this is the correct way to do things.

a reply to: grainofsand

Yeah I have loads of stuff.
I often go here.

www.aaronwheelergunsmith.co.uk...

So tempted to get a licence.
We are going to have a deer cull soon I think where I live probably too late to sort that out though.