British police calling for knife ban

originally posted by: revmoofoo
a reply to: DISRAELI

Carrying a knife with a locking blade or one with a blade longer than 2.5 inches (I think) is a big no no here in the UK. That said, I carry a Leatherman Wave every day, but I live in the country and the Police just don't care out here.

Rev

The U.S has similar laws regarding knives but i think those types of things are state laws. for some reason the overwhelming majority of posters from the UK not only here obviously but all over the internet cannot grasp is that in the U.S states has very different laws. that is why there are also different tests to practice law from state to state and that does not seem to be the case in the UK.

I may be wrong but i believe that one way to look at it is to compare Europe as a whole to the U.S and consider that a law in the UK may not apply in another European country so yes a knife being carried in some states can be say no larger than 3 fingers and in another state you can wear a giant knife on your hip for the simple fact that a mountain lion may eat you.

When i was very young i moved two states over from where i had previously lived (New York City) and was amazed to see people walking down the road with guns strapped to their hips. This was the 80s though and there was basically zero violent crimes…well actually there were many fights, mainly males fighting, but even then no guns seemed to be produced in those fights although you could get your ear bitten off.

originally posted by: grainofsand

I'll second that passionately.
If you aren't being a prick then the overwhelming majority of police officers in the UK will be cool and turn a blind eye or have a chat and say don't be a prick next time.

I have never ever been scared of UK police, they are vastly outnumbered, only 1 for every 5000 citizens at any given time right now during the Summer where I am, only one in ten at most in my area carry tazers, just sticks, and they are mostly friendly and decent.

If you are not harming others or threatening to harm others then they leave you alone. I have to remind myself that some things are illegal the amount of times I see cops making good calls to keep a community at peace and happy.

a reply to: grainofsand

That's because in the UK the policing ethos is different to the US. The US are "law enforcers", the UK "police by consent". It is a very different culture. To police by consent, you need to be more highly trained in my opinion because you need to use judgement and interaction at a higher level.

Exactly these, if you're not posing a threat to people or obvioiusly breaking a law in public then police will hapilly remind you of the law and turn a blind eye rather as they have actual criminals to deal with so rightly make the call whether arresting someone over a minor crime is worth all the time and paperwork when there's people out there causing crimes that directly harm others or pose a threat to society.

originally posted by: Harvin

The U.S has similar laws regarding knives but i think those types of things are state laws. for some reason the overwhelming majority of posters from the UK not only here obviously but all over the internet cannot grasp is that in the U.S states has very different laws. that is why there are also different tests to practice law from state to state and that does not seem to be the case in the UK.

For myself, the confusion comes from the cornerstone of law and order which is 'everyone is equal under the eyes of the law' so having different laws for different areas of the country seems to go against our concept of justice. Not saying either is right or wrong, it just seems very odd coming from the UK. Instead of having differentlaws for different parts of the country here, the law is all te same but the country is divided into small sections called countys.

I didn't get a chance to read all the posts yet so not sure if it was mentioned, but for the back and forth arguments between murder statistics, wouldn't population play a big part into all this. I think that's one part of the puzzle missing here.

U.S. Population / UK Population

a reply to: Skid Mark

You can get upwards of 6 months to a year in gaol if found to be in possession of a knife without sufficient reason in the U.K. Even for a first offence. Our political establishment dont like our youngsters prowling our streets with blades and if a scheme such as this manages to retard or prevent knife injury's by way of removing them then it's possibly not that bad an idea. That being said there's really nothing to stop the little neds from going into the kitchen drawer any getting another one.

Spoons will be next i imagine. LoL

originally posted by: bastion

For myself, the confusion comes from the cornerstone of law and order which is 'everyone is equal under the eyes of the law' so having different laws for different areas of the country seems to go against our concept of justice. Not saying either is right or wrong, it just seems very odd coming from the UK. Instead of having differentlaws for different parts of the country here, the law is all te same but the country is divided into small sections called countys.

It is equal because state laws apply to you once you cross the state line regardless if you are a resident or not. That said, in addition to state laws we also have federal laws which trump state laws or actually we would consider the federal law to just be THE law.

Some easy examples are that in one state you can have a drivers license at 16 and the next state over it can be 18, same for drinking alcohol whereas legal age in New York is 21 but the next state over it may be 18 or in one state the bars close at 1am and another they can remain open until 4am or even be a “dry state” although guess that you would not see that much if at all.

Federal laws apply universally so the real bad stuff i, as far as i know, is not going to vary much or i suppose at all except perhaps in sentencing and again in one state you may face a death penalty and in another the death penalty is not an option.

Another recent example involves gay marriage and in one state 2 people may be considered married and another state would not recognize that marriage…In that case it would not matter much except if you decide to live there.

It can get complicated but this is not done to be confusing. The thing to be aware of is a felony is a felony all across the U.S…usually and misdemeanors can vary. Local ordinances or infractions, which would not or may not be a crime beyond say a small fine are another matter and they go by the county level which i am assuming is similar in the UK…or at least i would hope so.

This is also why, as i said previously, an attorney can be licensed in New York to practice law but that licensee is only good in New York. You just have to take the exam for other states so you can be licensed in them.

An actual attorney can explain it much better than i have and just living in the U.S these are fairly obvious things i am writing.

I was not sure if that was the case in the UK but from reading on the internet it seemed obvious to me that the UK had one set of laws across the board, as a general rule right? And honestly it can get comical when Europeans make blanket statements about the U.S laws and most people wont take the time to explain this to them so the same subjects keep coming up that are partially incorrect due to a lack of understanding and obviously your media does not seem to mention this because then the average person in the UK would know these things.

a reply to: Answer

Wait...

Are you seriously suggesting you have a better murder rate in US than in UK? i had to re-read that to make sure I wasn't mistaken.

Derp ta feck

a reply to: Cherry0

Although yes, there will be a difference based on population size, for instance, more people in less space may cause more friction between said people, these stats are based on per 100,000 usually.

crimepreventionresearchcenter.org...

When will people start using common sense and realize that weapon bans only affect law abiding citizens.

originally posted by: Konduit
crimepreventionresearchcenter.org...

When will people start using common sense and realize that weapon bans only affect law abiding citizens.

Tell that to Australians who gave their weapons in after the massacre. There hasn't been one since.

Arguing with the majority of Americans about weapons of pointless. The only real point they have is that they like them.

America's #ed anyway and the recent influx of members to this site over the last 5 years has shown me it's only getting worse

originally posted by: Skid Mark
One of my friends posted this on facebook and I couldn't help but laugh. This article is a year old but I feel that it's still relevant. Also, I had to paraphrase the actual title, as it was too long.

The new “Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife” program is in full swing and police are telling us that they have joined forces with an already growing trend in the United Kingdom to ban “pointy” knives.

Source
Does this remind you of anything?
Some states in the U.S. have a gun buy back program where guns can be "surrendered" in an effort to stop "gun" violence.
L.A. Gun buyback program
N.Y. Cash for Guns program

Now, as most of you know, guns have been banned in the U.K. Because of that, violent crimes are being committed with knives. It goes to show that it's not the weapon that the criminal uses but the criminal. This ought to be food for thought for those who support a gun ban in the U.S. but I'm afraid that they'll totally miss the message.

Mine are not and will never be for sale or 'buy back' as if they owned them to begin with.

If a politician (aka, known liar) tells you don't need to protect yourself....you need to.

originally posted by: n00bUK

originally posted by: Konduit
crimepreventionresearchcenter.org...

When will people start using common sense and realize that weapon bans only affect law abiding citizens.

Tell that to Australians who gave their weapons in after the massacre. There hasn't been one since.

Arguing with the majority of Americans about weapons of pointless. The only real point they have is that they like them.

America's #ed anyway and the recent influx of members to this site over the last 5 years has shown me it's only getting worse

Wow ok.

The thing and point being made is overall homicide isn't changed by gun bans. Possibly massacres may be but they are a tiny fraction of the overall homicide rate. If you look at countries with bans the rate of homicide isn't effected. In the case of the us even if our mass shootings seem to be increasing our homicide and violent crime rate is decreasing.

Take the UK. Guns have been very restricted and controlled since the 20's. You had to have a sporting permit. Then the two massacres in 88 and 97 outlawed semi autos and pistols made it much harder to get guns in an already hard to get guns society. The rate of decline in homicides and violent crimes did not decrease at all. It actually slowed at points during harder economic times.

Take Canada more guns per capita than the us, or Switzerland everyone has a gun. Why aren't there homicide rates as bad as the us or even the UK?

Its about social conditions and economics. We have very poor cities with very desperate people. The massacres take up less than 1 percent of the homicide rate. The fact that Australia hasn't had a massacre since isn't really a valid argument unless the rate of massacres has changed. How many massacres happened per year before the ban and how many after. If it is one or two ina hundred years vs none in 10 that isn't a real statistic.

a reply to: Skid Mark

I hate to say I told you so............Look into the future and ask yourselves if you live in the UK how far will they go. Progressives goal is slowly over time strip away all self and replace it with a collective.

a reply to: SubTruth

You need to read the thread and get actual facts because the op is bs.

originally posted by: luthier
Take Canada more guns per capita than the us, or Switzerland everyone has a gun. Why aren't there homicide rates as bad as the us or even the UK?

I think you are getting your statistics wrong.

The US has 89 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 3 people per 100,000 (270 million civilian firearms) 60% murders involve a gun.

Canada has 31 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 0.5 people per 100,000 (9.9 million civilian firearms) 30% of murders involve a gun.

England and Wales (most of the UK) has 6 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 0.07 people per 100,000 (3.4 million firearms) and 6% of murders involve a gun.

Switzerland has 30 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 0.2 people per 100,000 (2.5 million firearms) and 30% of murders involve a gun.

Need I go on? The more guns, the more change of being murdered by one. The UK has a tiny murder rate by guns.

Edit to add source

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: luthier
Take Canada more guns per capita than the us, or Switzerland everyone has a gun. Why aren't there homicide rates as bad as the us or even the UK?

I think you are getting your statistics wrong.

The US has 89 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 3 people per 100,000 (270 million civilian firearms) 60% murders involve a gun.

Canada has 31 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 0.5 people per 100,000 (9.9 million civilian firearms) 30% of murders involve a gun.

England and Wales (most of the UK) has 6 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 0.07 people per 100,000 (3.4 million firearms) and 6% of murders involve a gun.

Switzerland has 30 guns per 100 people and a firearm murder rate of 0.2 people per 100,000 (2.5 million firearms) and 30% of murders involve a gun.

Need I go on? The more guns, the more change of being murdered by one. The UK has a tiny murder rate by guns.

Edit to add source

Why lie? First off the study isn't (even by their own words accurate)

The ownership rate reported is the average estimate taken from "The largest civilian firearms arsenals for 178 countries. That table gives also the minimum and maximum estimates. Note that for some countries, this margin of error is considerable. For example, Yemen, ranked near the top with an ownership rate of 54.8, has a low estimate of 28.6 and a high estimate of 81.1. While the United States is ranked for the highest gun ownership rate unambiguously, Yemen based on the margin of error may rank anywhere between 2nd and 18th, Switzerland anywhere between 2nd and 16th

It also states it has nothing to do with gun ownership. These are assumed guns in the population. Not per household. Switzerland is almost 100 percent per household. Its part of their constitution and militia based military. So yeah Americans may have several more guns per person. Meaning a person owns more than one.

Second

I said homicide rate. Does it matter if you were stabbed or beaten or shot? The murder rates of the countries you mentioned did not change at all. The rate of decline in the murder did not change. In the UK for instance it was already declining before the massacres that led to the two final restrictions in 88 and 97. The murder rate decline in the UK actually slowed during economic hardships even with gun bans. You can't just use stats. You have to actually understand an analyze them.

a reply to: Skid Mark

Give an inch, they take a mile.

This is true, and have been going on for a while.
When I was in Afghanistan I worked with British forces in the IOCC. When I left I gave my friends and counterparts a Remington Law Enforcement pocket knife. After the diner, they brought them back to me saying the blade was over something like 2 1/4 inches...and as such they could not take them back to Britain.

How about a ban on pointed knives?..yes seriously!

Have ones that are made for *slicing/chopping* food Etc Only (Household) ..I suppose there is the need for hunting and field/camping knives to be pointy? But how would you enforce this? Likely impossible!

a reply to: Skid Mark

For a start, this wasn't a knife ban but an amnesty.
Secondly, guns aren't banned in the UK. Most people could get a shotgun licence as long as they have a place to hunt and a clean criminal record.

And lastly, comparing knife crime to gun crime is daft.
Just look at the figures. How many people masacres with guns in the US are there and how many knife massacres are there in the UK?
The chances of a burglar having guns in the UK is very very slim. They may have a bat or a knife and I may have the same but that narrows the chances of either of us dying.
Plus then you've got the police running round shooting anything that moves.

To be fair banning guns wouldn't work in the USA as there are already too many guns there and of course the criminals will be the last people to surrender them.
I wouldn't want them banned if I was American but there is no way I would relax UK laws on ownership.

originally posted by: Skid Mark

Now, as most of you know, guns have been banned in the U.K. Because of that, violent crimes are being committed with knives. It goes to show that it's not the weapon that the criminal uses but the criminal. This ought to be food for thought for those who support a gun ban in the U.S. but I'm afraid that they'll totally miss the message.

As most people with half a brain know guns HAVE NOT BEEN BANNED IN THE UK the controls ie licensing, around them have been tightened. Typical knee jerk reaction from people who use guns as a penis extension.

"Food for thought" : anyone who does not know about the laws around guns should be exempt for life from owning one because their stupidity or ignorance is too dangerous for a gun owner!!!!!!!

Any criminal who wishes to blow somebody's head off with a gun clearly has no bother with obeying the law DUH MASSIVE DUH. This means whatever laws there are around gun ownership will NOT DETER THEM ONE IOTA. What the tighter laws do is restrict the availability of guns and thus make it far less likely that a nutter gets hold of one.

That bit of logic is usually beyond the one step mentality of the rah rah gun owner.