How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

self-edit got it cleared up, I think.

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: Rex282
Hi. I replied to your summary (above) with this post:

a reply to Rex282: bb23108

I was hoping you have a response about it relative to your understanding of quantum theory.

Thanks.

I apologize for my lateness I will.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

sometimes just attention, and respect, and recognition of their pain...where they feel safe to talk about it, or even if it's just a 'take-away' moment that resonates in their heads in the future - you know - that "one thing" someone said that "changed your life."

Yeah, I understood that. It's just my MO to take things One Step Beyond.

Then people think I'm not agreeing with them when really I'm just trying to move it along.

Like, watch this:

Clear as mud, right?!

No, you didn't just do that!

Great, now let's see... I don't think an auto mechanic can do it.
Perhaps one for a Quantum Mechanic.

But then on the other hand ...

Yeah, I'll just keep that secret to myself.

self-edit got it cleared up, I think.

I guess you figured it out too.
But seriously, I'm thinking of changing my signature.

originally posted by: Rex282


I apologize for my lateness I will.

No hurry - I just was unsure if you had seen it and do value your response.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I saw this documentary once

Occasionally I think about this great confusion as to where things really are.

I'm sitting in my chair and I want to pick up a book,
I reach out and the book isn't there.
"Funny," It was there just a moment ago.

But wait! The book is there, just not now.

And sometimes I know that if I get up, take 10 steps in a direction and reach down, I can pick up my hammer.
But, wait! That is thirty years ago, and 1100 miles away.

Yes, a great confusion.

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: Rex282
Thanks for this great summary - much appreciated!

All such possibility wave forms are still conditional in nature, though obviously very subtle and not obeying the laws of space and time like we tend to believe and operate in.

All wave possibility forms(wpf) are conditional to what their nature is.It’s just that we don’t know the complete nature of the wave form .When it is observed is when it collapses then we perceive it’s form.Its true nature is what philosophers would call metaphysical…beyond physics.

originally posted by: bb23108
some kind of creator-God idea is just another possibility, but which makes no sense to me as Reality, because such a Creator-God would be objectifiable, and therefore able to be separated from other conditional realities.

A creator God could not be perceived by observation at all.What is perceived as God is an observation created in the mind.It is not “quantifiable” and does not have mass or form yet it is perceived (believed) by faith (observation) through mans nature of their Belief System.That is not the creator God.That God is formed in the imagination of a persons mind.It is not objective it is completely subjective yet perceived as objective.

The collapsing of the pwf is a subjective perception according to the objective nature of the quantum.A person doesn’t normally collapse pwf particles of an orange into an elephant.The objective(truth) cannot be a perception of observation of pwf.The objective(truth) of pwf cannot be perceived or observed because it is infinite possibilities.In effect the physical universe cannot contain the pwf in time/space.In theory particles can be anywhere in the space/time with no fixed position.Perception by observation collapses them to be something the mind can “grasp”.It is a convenience for observation not an act of matter obeying the will of the observer.

originally posted by: bb23108
From the Unconditional "perspective", It does seem that Reality would necessarily be indivisible (not objectifiable) and beyond cause and effect - and yet, not separate from all possibilities, whether appearing or not to any observer. Thus Reality is unqualified Unconditional indivisible Consciousness-Light.

The indivisibility of the true reality universe cannot be known because man cannot perceive it through observation as anything but the collapsing of the pwf.The delusion is that the mind can circumvent the nature of the conscious. In truth all the consciousness would be doing is feeding the delusion of “enlightenment” and creating in the mind an alternate perception not true reality.

The enlightenment/ascension delusion is based on the old maxim you can do ANYTHING you want if you put your mind to it…. which is patently false paradigm because the reality is you can’t do “anything” you want but you may be able to do “somethings” and on a very limited level… anything beyond the perception observation is a delusion of that system.

Einstein said mans perception of time/space is a convincing but persistent delusion.All of creation exist as a “unit”(block universe) it is not separate as man perceives them through observation.However that “separation” is a mechanism that allows man to “experience” the universe without the infinite amount of information attacking them.Mans mind is not built to “know” what reality is.To try to breaking through the 4th wall is futile and unwise endeavor.It only creates a form of insanity of being deluded of believing what can’t be known.

The mind of the creator author cannot be known by it’s creation(man in this case) while existing IN the creation.It will only lead to great delusionment when a person believes they can but have not!The only possible knowledge of anything beyond the creation is if the creator God revealed it.There would be no methodology to it at all.It could never be communicated in truth to someone else because it would not be revealed from the creator to the person.That in effect is the safeguard.No one person would have the market on it…as the academic would say (not me) but I digress….hahahahha..

originally posted by: bb23108
From the conditional perspective, all forms are conditional modifications of Unconditional Reality, which is Consciousness-Light.
Unqualified Light is modified by its own consciousness or awareness being associated with an observer function - e.g., attention in the case of humans, and thus wave form possibilities are manifested accordingly.

The pwf are not manifested by observation which is the common assumption and that without an observer there is no matter.The collapsing of the pwf is a mechanism of convenience. Pwf do not obey mans wishes and commands.The pwf always exists separated from mans perception and observation they are not manifested by them, they are collapsed into what is perceived as matter when they are observed for experience sake.

This only appears that since the perception of an observers collapses the pwf that they are mutually exclusive.(i.e…you can’t have the one without the other…dualism) but that cannot be true.The pwf does not need the observer to exist,The collapsing of the pwf into what is perceived as matter and events of matter is an action to perceive the matter not in effect “create it.

Mans perception through observation is like playing a film at a suitable frames per second to see it in what man perceives as “real time”(yes there are many variations of FPS with varying results.I’m just making a point without delving into the full blown technical aspects).When it is too fast the brain perceives it as a blur and out of sync with “time” because there is too much visual material to take in.When it is to slow it is a slideshow and isn’t perceived as “real time”.

My point is pwf are infinite.Our brain cannot perceive them as they truthfully are in reality.There is a process where they seem to have a mind of their own and know when they are observed and collapse into perceivable matter and events.However it isn’t because they “know” when they are being observed and collapse like(in reverse) a ghost disappearing before you can fix your gaze on it.(I’m am not postulating in any way ghosts are real).It is because it is their nature perceived through mans nature of observation through the Belief System(which by the way aren’t just about religion-religion).

My point is.There is no way to circumvent the infinite nature of pwf to perceive them as they really are by observation because that is what causes the pwf to collapse not the creation of them.Matter has in effect a dual nature(not dualism) but is not quantum mechanical which is based in yep…perception by observation (science!!)

cont'd

originally posted by: bb23108
Your thoughts?

Thank you for your interest in what my thoughts are.Please understand I have no desire at all to engage in a metaphysical debate of any kind and will not.You asked my opinion that’s all I can give.

To sum it all up I am positive the truth of reality is infinitely complex.I am not attempting to explain how it works.My point is it is impossible to know(ascend/be enlightened) how the truth of reality works because of the mechanisms of the physical realm man lives in.I am positive we will only reach a loggerheads if we debate our points .My purpose in this thread (and in all my threads) was to only explain in the the most basic way of what I know of the physical universe.It is not unique.It is consistent with the basis of what quantum physicist already know without the futility attempting to “know” the mechanics of the source of the mystery by a method of religion or science.

We may agree on a few minor things however we will disagree on the majority.You are a mystic and believe in transcendent enlightenment.I know by experience that is a futile road that leads to nowhere because I have been far, far,far, down it and won’t be going back.I am only concerned with truth as man can know.

The truth that quantum physics has unveiled is only scratching an atom on the surface.It is the height of hubris to believe the truth of reality can be known.Mans purpose in life is very simple…to live.There is no mystical transcendence to higher planes of existence man can know while living in the physical realm by any method especially religion or science.That is the deep delusionment .

My main impetuous in this forum(ATS) is to deny ignorance …as is the motto of ATS.That ignorance mostly based in the great ignorance of religion and it’s legion of sects.It is impossible to address all the fallacies of all of them by any one person.Christianity is what I have the most experience with.It is fraught with the worst kind of ignorance there is and infected the majority of mankind in one way or the other the most .That’s why my post have that POV.I do not have an agenda to promote any kind of belief but only to destroy religious belief which is not the truth.

originally posted by: Rex282
The indivisibility of the true reality universe cannot be known because man cannot perceive it through observation as anything but the collapsing of the pwf.The delusion is that the mind can circumvent the nature of the conscious. In truth all the consciousness would be doing is feeding the delusion of “enlightenment” and creating in the mind an alternate perception not true reality.

The enlightenment/ascension delusion is based on the old maxim you can do ANYTHING you want if you put your mind to it…. which is patently false paradigm because the reality is you can’t do “anything” you want but you may be able to do “somethings” and on a very limited level… anything beyond the perception observation is a delusion of that system.

Einstein said mans perception of time/space is a convincing but persistent delusion.All of creation exist as a “unit”(block universe) it is not separate as man perceives them through observation.However that “separation” is a mechanism that allows man to “experience” the universe without the infinite amount of information attacking them.Mans mind is not built to “know” what reality is.To try to breaking through the 4th wall is futile and unwise endeavor.It only creates a form of insanity of being deluded of believing what can’t be known.

The mind of the creator author cannot be known by it’s creation(man in this case) while existing IN the creation.It will only lead to great delusionment when a person believes they can but have not!The only possible knowledge of anything beyond the creation is if the creator God revealed it.There would be no methodology to it at all.It could never be communicated in truth to someone else because it would not be revealed from the creator to the person.That in effect is the safeguard.No one person would have the market on it…as the academic would say (not me) but I digress….hahahahha..
....
The pwf are not manifested by observation which is the common assumption and that without an observer there is no matter.The collapsing of the pwf is a mechanism of convenience. Pwf do not obey mans wishes and commands.The pwf always exists separated from mans perception and observation they are not manifested by them, they are collapsed into what is perceived as matter when they are observed for experience sake.

This only appears that since the perception of an observers collapses the pwf that they are mutually exclusive.(i.e…you can’t have the one without the other…dualism) but that cannot be true.The pwf does not need the observer to exist,The collapsing of the pwf into what is perceived as matter and events of matter is an action to perceive the matter not in effect “create it.

Mans perception through observation is like playing a film at a suitable frames per second to see it in what man perceives as “real time”(yes there are many variations of FPS with varying results.I’m just making a point without delving into the full blown technical aspects).When it is too fast the brain perceives it as a blur and out of sync with “time” because there is too much visual material to take in.When it is to slow it is a slideshow and isn’t perceived as “real time”.

My point is pwf are infinite.Our brain cannot perceive them as they truthfully are in reality.There is a process where they seem to have a mind of their own and know when they are observed and collapse into perceivable matter and events.However it isn’t because they “know” when they are being observed and collapse like(in reverse) a ghost disappearing before you can fix your gaze on it.(I’m am not postulating in any way ghosts are real).It is because it is their nature perceived through mans nature of observation through the Belief System(which by the way aren’t just about religion-religion).

My point is.There is no way to circumvent the infinite nature of pwf to perceive them as they really are by observation because that is what causes the pwf to collapse not the creation of them.Matter has in effect a dual nature(not dualism) but is not quantum mechanical which is based in yep…perception by observation (science!!)

That was a very useful summary - thank you for taking the time to write it up! Do you have a thread along these same lines? I started a thread a while ago based on my understanding here:

"Can there be recognition of what is - beyond any and all experiencing?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It may be better to continue this conversation either on your thread or mine, rather than here, though BuzzyWigs probably won't mind, regardless.

Anyway, I do have some questions and comments. I actually think our two considerations are not as different as they may seem to you.

I don't assume that any observer can observe Reality itself, nor even a wave form possibility - for the very act of observation will collapse it. However, in my view, these body-minds are just transmitter-receivers in an unlimited field of Consciousness, in which our apparently individual awareness (by association with the point-view-making mechanism of attention) is collapsing the wave form possibilities into an apparent reality. This is fundamentally the process of perception.

So through the medium of the apparently individuated body-brain-mind-attention-awareness, we all have different perceptions of what Reality is and even what a pwf is, in any given moment. E.g., animals see the same environment quite differently from us.

And I also agree that observation does NOT create the pwf - it only renders a particular "take" of it based on many variables relative to the observer-body-mind complex itself.

However, Reality is also beyond the pwf, though not separate from it or any collapse of it, for it is unmodified Conscious Light.

Can we ever know this Reality? I agree with you, not through any experience (what the linked thread is about) but only through direct recognition of our fundamental awareness, which is not different from Consciousness Itself.

Of course, that is a great process, and actual realization is very rare - for almost everyone settles for some form of experience. E.g., the mystical traditions are full of teachings that say the Light Above is enlightenment, etc. - but are still fundamentally experiential in nature, mediated by attention or the core sense of separate self, always collapsing some pwf regardess of how subtle and delightful its nature may be.

Reality is necessarily beyond all such changing forms (though not inherently separate from anything) and can be fully realized only when attention to all possibilites is utterly released in that very Reality.

Let me know your further thoughts, and also where we might continue this conversation. Thanks again.

a reply to: FreshTM

Have you read the title of the OP? Good god; what are you going on about? Are you trying to force me to believe your metaphysics?

You can't make me believe your angle. Besides, my personal experiences trumps your beliefs...

If your beliefs work for you then carry on. That is absolutely what I am doing...in life.

Furthermore, if you want to see what people truly believe about themselves and their religious dogma, just take a look at the life they have created thus far for themselves. One will quickly discover that they have only their beliefs/philosophy with only words shared on social media to show for it.

Some people speak from empirical means and then there are those who speak from their arse.

Again, if what you mentioned to me works for you - please carry on. That is all that matters.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You have reached the gnosis through deep breathing and stillness, and that's how you pierced the veil?

No. PTSD as kid helped me pierce the veil (flashes of light). There are many ways to pierce the veil...btw. Deep Breathing helps (me). Water helps me even more.

I don't think you know this, other people have heard me talk about it...I'm one of those natural ones....

We are all born with meta-conscious perception. It is only the "fakes" who don't seem to know this...and want to appear "gifted" or "special" by claiming "I'm one of those natural ones".....Please, spare me.

Lying is a sin....is it not?

But I caution, don't go seeking the other side of that veil unless you are ready to find out what's on that side. This side is more safe. Trust me.

I've been at it since the first grade...

You have nothing to fear...except lies....



Btw, what do you mean by "this side?"

Humour me..

originally posted by: bb23108
...........
Let me know your further thoughts, and also where we might continue this conversation. Thanks again.

I apologize for my late reply (again).Yes let me know if you start a thread.Thanks

Rex

a reply to: Involutionist
You said:

We are all born with meta-conscious perception. It is only the "fakes" who don't seem to know this...and want to appear "gifted" or "special" by claiming "I'm one of those natural ones".....Please, spare me.

Lying is a sin....is it not?

WarminIndy said:

But I caution, don't go seeking the other side of that veil unless you are ready to find out what's on that side. This side is more safe. Trust me.

^^ WarminIndy posted this part ^^


You said:

I've been at it since the first grade... You have nothing to fear...except lies....



Btw, what do you mean by "this side?"

I'm saying: I agree with you, Involutionist, and I'd also like to know what is meant by 'the other side' ? Or 'that side', or 'this side'

In my opinion, there are no "sides" - there is just 'what it is,' and myriad ways of viewing, reflecting, thinking, and behaving based on 'what it is.'

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I starred that one. ^^^

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

there are only two sides: ignorance and awareness.

everything else is merely shades of perception.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I'm saying: I agree with you, Involutionist, and I'd also like to know what is meant by 'the other side' ? Or 'that side', or 'this side'

I, too, hope WarminIndy comes back to clarify what s/he meant by This Side vs Other Side. As one of "the natural ones" they claim to be...this should be easily explained from a first person perspective and not the typical cliche explanations. I light up when I come across others who claim to pierce the veil. Here is the reason why:



...but then there are those who hide behind the "all mystical experiences are personal and subjective" ideology to mask their lies of being "one of the natural ones".

In my opinion, there are no "sides" - there is just 'what it is,' and myriad ways of viewing, reflecting, thinking, and behaving based on 'what it is.'

I agree; all is Mind.

If one were to place their finger into a glass of water: Is there finger "over there" in the glass of water OR is it still "on this side" as a part of your body? Is the finger "here as a part of you" or "over there in the glass of water..."? Both perhaps?...since the nature of mind and all of existence is duality as this example and your quoted words demonstrate.

In my opinion, there are no "sides" - there is just 'what it is,' and myriad ways of viewing, reflecting, thinking, and behaving based on 'what it is.'

Again, I soooo agree!

Center spoke of the wheel...we each are.

I. THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM.

"THE ALL is MIND; The Universe is Mental." — The Kybalion.

This Principle embodies the truth that "All is Mind." It explains that THE ALL (which is the Substantial Reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we know under the terms of "The Material Universe"; the "Phenomena of Life"; "Matter"; "Energy"; and, in short, all that is apparent to our material senses) is SPIRIT, which in itself is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE, but which may be considered and thought of as AN UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND.

It also explains that all the phenomenal world or universe is simply a Mental Creation of THE ALL, subject to the Laws of Created Things, and that the universe, as a whole, and in its parts or units, has its existence in the Mind of THE ALL, in which Mind we "live and move and have our being." This Principle, by establishing the Mental Nature of the Universe, easily explains all of the varied mental and psychic phenomena that occupy such a large portion of the public attention, and which, without such explanation, are non-understandable and defy scientific treatment.

An understanding of this great hermetic Principle of Mentalism enables the individual to readily grasp the laws of the Mental Universe, and to apply the same to his well-being and advancement. The Hermetic Student is enabled to apply intelligently the great Mental Laws, instead of using them in a haphazard manner. With tire Master-Key in his possession, the student may unlock the many doors of the mental and psychic temple of knowledge, and enter the same freely and intelligently. This Principle explains the true nature of "Energy," "Power," and "Matter," and why and how all these are subordinate to the Mastery of Mind.

One of the old Hermetic Masters wrote, long ages ago: "He who grasps the truth of the Mental Nature of the Universe is well advanced on The Path to Mastery." And these words are as true to-day as at the time they were first written.

Without this Master-Key, Mastery is impossible, and the student knocks in vain at the many doors of The Temple.

Same stuff "Jesus" taught (IMO)... using parables...often mistaken as historical, cosmological and biographical facts.

a reply to: Rex282
Oh, I was referring to a thread I already had started a while back, that any of our further conversation would have fit into.

I enjoyed what you wrote up and it has helped me to understand something more about the illusion of perception - and the observer effect in quantum physics.

Currently I am travelling (sooner than expected), and will likely not be online much longer, and also, for quite some time.

Thanks again Rex - and to all of you for your insights, discussions, and humor.

a reply to: bb23108

Please provide a link to your post..thanks

I'm sorry to hear you won't be around much longer.It was refreshing and a pleasure to read your well reasoned posts.I wish you well in whatever you do.

Rex

a reply to: Rex282

That thread was linked in this post: My response to your summary

Currently I am in a place where the internet is spotty but somewhat workable, but soon this will not be an option until I return the States again many months from now. However, currently I am very likely delayed with the next leg of my trip, so I am able to post some depending on whether the portable wi-fi device wants to work or not.

Thank you for your kind words and regard - and the best to you, too.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Maybe you should not believe in anything beyond what you experience.

What else is there?

The rest are just stories.


----

That said, that is not to say there is no value in 'religious' books.

Ok, you have the stories of Noah, etc. but you also have notions of mutual respect and other good ideas that may contribute in a good way to a healthy civilized society.

a reply to: nOraKat

You know, it's like this for me:
I have studied many different 'religions' and theories, and have developed an eclectic philosophy of my own based on what I have learned. I guess one could consider it my own personal 'bowl full of cherries'. lol!!

But every day I think about this stuff, and still come up with "I don't know." Always in the back of my mind is: "I could be wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. What if I'm wrong?"

There's no comfort in just "deciding" to go along with one or the other as prepackaged. So - my personal journey it is, and if at the end that wasn't good enough, then, I guess that's how it rolls. All I can do is my best.

The Golden Rule is my main motto.

I'm not a believer in hell-fire, though. Or the rapture. Or blaring trumpets and a wrathful reappearance of "Jesus". None of us TRULY know ---- so I don't worry too much. There's nothing I can do to force myself, or anyone else can do to convince me; and even if I just 'repeat after them', it doesn't make it true or guaranteed. So, I guess that's just how I was born, and it's my story, and I'm sticking to it.





On a related, pertinent note: If I were in the shoes of the Christians in the Middle East being maimed or having a knife at my throat, or fingertips, I don't think I'd have the courage to martyr myself. I imagine I'd just say, "okay." On the other hand, there are things worse than death, and the idea of being someone's sex slave would not go over well. So, I don't honestly know.

If they demandeded I say the grass is violet and the sky is brown, I guess I'd say it.

I feel really, really bad for those being TRULY, brutally persecuted and murdered like they are. It's hideous, in every respect. I actually have a deep regard for the Ba'hai faith. They have been slaughtered by Muslims as well, for many, many years. Of the Abrahamic faiths, they are probably the closest to my beliefs - or the Unitarian Universalists.