How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Nirvana is a Buddhist concept. Reincarnation doesn't depend any religious concept, in and of itself, even though it's embraced by almost all of them, in some way or another.

I'm specifically addressing the concept of needing to believe in Jesus Christ for him to save us from death and to bestow eternal life on those he deems worthy.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Nirvana is a Buddhist concept. Reincarnation doesn't depend any religious concept, in and of itself, even though it's embraced by almost all of them, in some way or another.

I'm specifically addressing the concept of needing to believe in Jesus Christ for him to save us from death and to bestow eternal life on those he deems worthy.

Is Nirvana a type of salvation or not?

Don't move the goal posts.

Buddhism is a religion, that is why they call him Lord Buddha.

We are talking about the concept of salvation and eternal life, and how the different faiths approach the subject. If I were to suddenly not believe in Jesus, would I qualify therefore for Nirvana even if I don't believe in it?

Is Nirvana and reincarnation a matter of free will? Is someone reincarnated if they absolutely refuse to be reincarnated?

If I am reincarnated against my will, no matter if I believe in it or not, is reincarnation removing my free will?

At least Jesus offers it to you, never against your will.

Perhaps Jesus saves you from the endless karmic cycle of forced reincarnation against your will.

a reply to: WarminIndy

How does being born figure into the whole free will thing?

Can you choose not to die?

Just sayin' :-)

I sincerely hope you aren't forced to reincarnate against your will WarminIndy - that would be positively un-American

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: WarminIndy

How does being born figure into the whole free will thing?

Can you choose not to die?

Just sayin' :-)

I sincerely hope you aren't forced to reincarnate against your will WarminIndy - that would be positively un-American

Except reincarnation forces you to be born again....and again, and yet again, and even yet again.

At least in Christianity you are forced to be born only once and die only once. Who would want to be forced to continually be a slave to reincarnation?

What if I don't believe this?

Reincarnation

The Bhagavad-gita says, “As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.”

Accepts..means you have to believe it. But if you don't believe it, then are reincarnated, it was against your free will.

According to this website, the belief in deity does count...

According to the Vedic sages, the living entity forgetful of his eternal relationship with God, or Krishna, wants to enjoy independently in the material world, so Krishna affords him repeated opportunities to try to do so.

Either Jesus or Krishna....

What if I don't believe in Krishna, what then? Doesn't matter, it's against your will

According to the Bhagavad-gita, this is a law of nature. You can decide for yourself whether to believe there’s such a law or not. But laws of nature—whatever they are—do not depend on one’s belief.

a reply to: windword

Are Peter and Lazarus alive?

why would they not be?

whatever state they exist in is obviously beyond us....

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Nirvana is a Buddhist concept. Reincarnation doesn't depend any religious concept, in and of itself, even though it's embraced by almost all of them, in some way or another.

I'm specifically addressing the concept of needing to believe in Jesus Christ for him to save us from death and to bestow eternal life on those he deems worthy.

Is Nirvana a type of salvation or not?

No. Not in my mind.

Don't move the goal posts.

What goal posts!? Don't derail the thread!
This thread is entitled How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

In a most condescending way, Thought Provoker, and Ketsuko too, by the way, have insisted that "we" must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved (from death) and be gifted with eternal life.

Buddhism is a religion, that is why they call him Lord Buddha.

So what?

We are talking about the concept of salvation and eternal life, and how the different faiths approach the subject. If I were to suddenly not believe in Jesus, would I qualify therefore for Nirvana even if I don't believe in it?

NO WE ARE NOT. We are talking about things that MUST be believed by people who can't force themselves to believe.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: windword

Are Peter and Lazarus alive?

why would they not be?

whatever state they exist in is obviously beyond us....

Whatever state they're in? What is life? Do you think that believers keep their egos and their personalities for eternity?

Are you changing the definition of life to suit your philosophy? Are all dead people alive, or just the good ones who believed in Jesus? Are all my childhood pets alive somewhere too?

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Nirvana is a Buddhist concept. Reincarnation doesn't depend any religious concept, in and of itself, even though it's embraced by almost all of them, in some way or another.

I'm specifically addressing the concept of needing to believe in Jesus Christ for him to save us from death and to bestow eternal life on those he deems worthy.

Is Nirvana a type of salvation or not?

No. Not in my mind.

Don't move the goal posts.

What goal posts!? Don't derail the thread!
This thread is entitled How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

In a most condescending way, Thought Provoker, and Ketsuko too, by the way, have insisted that "we" must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved (from death) and be gifted with eternal life.

Buddhism is a religion, that is why they call him Lord Buddha.

So what?

We are talking about the concept of salvation and eternal life, and how the different faiths approach the subject. If I were to suddenly not believe in Jesus, would I qualify therefore for Nirvana even if I don't believe in it?

NO WE ARE NOT. We are talking about things that MUST be believed by people who can't force themselves to believe.

I hope you notice that I am not condescending.

The problem is this, if we believe one way and someone else believes another way, we shouldn't then argue about which one is right or wrong, because in a tiny way we are asking them to believe the way we do.

BuzzyWigs doesn't believe, you don't believe and others don't believe in Jesus Christ. OK, that's good and well. But then on the opposite side, if we say "this is how it is, it's reincarnation, it's space aliens, it's turning into jello, it's turning into...." and if the person doesn't say "this is how I believe" then it becomes "believe as I say it is".

If you thought my argument became ridiculous because I was making the comparison to reincarnation and going by the whole natural movement of the thread, what IS the purpose of not being forced to believe in Jesus Christ?

The discussions were brought up about the whys and it included salvation, including the picture. So then it is only reasonable to discuss that. I wasn't derailing the thread.

But I am not asking you to believe in Jesus Christ. No matter what we we all believe, the truth is that we live and die regardless of how we believe. And in discussing the different views of life after death, which is what the issue of reincarnation is, the truth is that we just do not know 100% because we have never experienced it. Some might experience something in an NDE, but they come back and tell us about a limited experience because they haven't seen all there is.

The best that we can hope for is to be at peace when we die. That means also peace with ourselves. Some people don't die in peace and some people leave a mess behind them that the rest of the people they harmed have to deal with. What do we say then for those who do not die in peace?

Are they then back again and again until they do reach peace?

And that is really what reincarnation, Nirvana and Jesus Christ offers, peace. I know that you don't believe that, but in answering the thread, I can only give that. I hope for peace for you, really I do. I am not saying that you don't have peace, but there is nothing wrong with each of us wanting peace for each other.

Hamlet Act III, scene 1, line 60. To die:—to sleep: No more; and, by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished.

Oh happy dagger, parting is such sweet sorrow.

I hope for peace. I hope for peace for you as well, in this life and the next to come. How you find your peace, that's for you. Who am I to take your peace?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
No matter what we we all believe, the truth is that we live and die regardless of how we believe. And in discussing the different views of life after death, which is what the issue of reincarnation is, the truth is that we just do not know 100% because we have never experienced it. Some might experience something in an NDE, but they come back and tell us about a limited experience because they haven't seen all there is.

Actually Jesus' Teachings and reincarnation are not contrary in many peoples' views. So I am not sure the contrast is as great as you are making it out to be, but anyway, I know what you mean.

And also, reincarnation is not just a matter of your deciding after you die whether you come back or not - it is far more complicated than that in terms of all the patterns that the whole body-mind (and the subtle body-mind, after death) has developed and lived by. The free will involved is much more about what is your choice in each and every moment of life - that is what determines your future, your reincarnation, etc.

In other words, yes you do have free will and do determine your future, but it is not just like deciding to go to the next movie show or not.

And yes, some people do directly know that reincarnation is one of the "machines" that occurs in these realms. Some people remember past lives, but this means very little if anything to anyone, other than the one who remembers.

I have seen many many different scenes from lots of prior lives and though it is clear to me that reincarnation is indeed the case, my understanding and experience means nothing to others - and in fact, this means very little to me, for in any given moment if I choose to commune with the Divine Reality, then I am free in God. That is all that really matters, not where and what my future destiny may be.

This is why I keep asking why Christians don't put a lot more emphasis on Jesus' two great commandments, which require moment to moment communion with God, which is based in our inherent freedom and heart-love - instead of trying to convert others with "an after-you-die salvation message or else doom and gloom".

Wouldn't an invitation to others for moment to moment communion with God be much more attractive and possibly even more effective in the long run for Christianity? This is most fundamentally what Jesus offered, right?

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: WarminIndy

This is why I keep asking why Christians don't put a lot more emphasis on Jesus' two great commandments, which require moment to moment communion with God - instead of trying to convert others with a salvation message or else doom and gloom. Wouldn't an invitation to others for moment to moment communion with God be much more attractive and possibly even more effective in the long run?

Actually, that is my belief. Moment to moment communion.

I don't understand reincarnation, but I see things about people who do and say they are. I really can't judge them for it, perhaps it is something for them and not me to experience.

The first time I heard of reincarnation was the movie Audrey Rose and that movie almost scared me to death. You have to remember I was just a little kid then.

But with the multiplicity of views about reincarnation, which most people only have a single understanding of and generally only present one particular religious view of, then it is an individualistic faith.

The link I had provided in an earlier post was of Krishna, and it was written in the Bhagavad-gita. That is a religious faith text to explain the after life. Why then not make the comparison?

I've read that some posters on ATS, some in this thread even, think that Jesus went to India and studied under the Hindu Vedic sages. But that isn't the topic of discussion, but it should be, I think. So let's understand the difference in the teachings of reincarnation and heaven and hell.

I wish no one to go to hell and am neither telling anyone they are going, I think that should be made clear.

Within the multiplicity of life and death beliefs or non-beliefs, certainly we can all listen to each other without having to accept what the other says. After all,

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it - Aristotle

So let's all be educated. I can only say what I believe without forcing others, but I can also say that we should be educated to be fully informed of a matter.

a reply to: WarminIndy
Wow

That was a whole new level of taking this seriously that I did not see coming...

At least in Christianity you are forced to be born only once and die only once. Who would want to be forced to continually be a slave to reincarnation? 

At least? Are you settling, or are you trying to sell a used car?

This is one of the more interesting angles on salvation I've heard in a while - and the thing is you sound genuinely concerned

I thought there was only one truth and one way - are you conceding that there might be more than one kind of soap at the market after all?

Or are you just doing a little marketing your own self?

:-)

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Actually, that is my belief. Moment to moment communion.

Happy to hear this - and this doesn't surprise me given all of our previous dialog. I was more speaking in general relative to what I see as a pattern with many Christians - that Jesus' admonition to live by the two great commandments in daily life is not emphasized like the "after-you-die salvation" message is.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
I've read that some posters on ATS, some in this thread even, think that Jesus went to India and studied under the Hindu Vedic sages. But that isn't the topic of discussion, but it should be, I think. So let's understand the difference in the teachings of reincarnation and heaven and hell.

Actually a month or two ago, you, Seede, and myself went on for quite a while discussing this "difference".

At this point, it seems like a lifetime or two ago!

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: WarminIndy
Wow

That was a whole new level of taking this seriously that I did not see coming...

At least in Christianity you are forced to be born only once and die only once. Who would want to be forced to continually be a slave to reincarnation? 

At least? Are you settling, or are you trying to sell a used car?

This is one of the more interesting angles on salvation I've heard in a while - and the thing is you sound genuinely concerned

I thought there was only one truth and one way - are you conceding that there might be more than one kind of soap at the market after all?

Or are you just doing a little marketing your own self?

:-)

May I ask you this, do you assume that Jesus only came to this Earth as the we know Him in the Jewish context when Jesus Himself said "I have sheep of another fold"?

Where is this other fold? Who are in this other fold? How did Jesus present Himself to this other fold?

I don't know and am not going to presume. But whoever they are, wherever they are, whatever time they lived in or will live in, they are also His.

I do not make this up, if we read Revelation, there is a particular verse that perhaps might answer this. First, it says "out of every kindred, nation and tongue". So that means the people there are from everywhere, in all times, in all places.

Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I want to compare this to these other views...(If I may be permitted)

The Aztec/Mayan Messiah: The return of Quetzalcoatl -- an olive-skinned man with a white beard and followers in red.

That's what Revelation says, the followers who come back, red signifying blood.

And the Mohawk Peacemaker Dekanawida, there are Mohawk who do say it is Jesus, but that Jesus came to them in their culture and their language.

Some Hopi call Him Pahana.

I'm not limiting Jesus to just Israel in 33 AD (CE). I don't why others do.

But that is my belief, not asking anyone to believe me. Whomever is in that fold, that's not for me to say because He didn't tell us who it was.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Actually, that is my belief. Moment to moment communion.

Happy to hear this - and this doesn't surprise me given all of our previous dialog. I was more speaking in general relative to what I see as a pattern - that Jesus' admonition to live by the two great commandments in daily life is not emphasized like the "after-you-die salvation" message is.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
I've read that some posters on ATS, some in this thread even, think that Jesus went to India and studied under the Hindu Vedic sages. But that isn't the topic of discussion, but it should be, I think. So let's understand the difference in the teachings of reincarnation and heaven and hell.

Actually a month or two ago, you, Seede, and myself went on for quite a while discussing this "difference".

At this point, it seems like a lifetime or two ago!

I've slept since thing..lol.

I need to go look that up.

a reply to: Rex282

In closing I leave you with the words of what physicist Yahoshua had to say about it.

I'll grant you he may have been a physicist...now explain the physics of his replicator. ie fed the 1000's with a handful of fish and loaves.

a reply to: Thought Provoker

He's knocking to keep you from falling off that cliff, to keep you from walking out in front of that bus

Your religion is so simple and clear and self evident to you that you use physical cause and effect (ie being killed by bus) to explain your (in your belief system) metaphysical realms. It doesn't wash with me.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Enoch
Elijah

Thats cheating, the question asked "who has Jesus saved?" But then I guess you'll throw the idea of a pre-existing Trinity at me. A concept from the New Testament not so clear cut.

a reply to: Thought Provoker

Are you sure you don't already believe? It's sometimes not easy to self-examine yourself to that low of a level. You may be confusing worry with disbelief.

Look. It's obvious that you already love Christ. You're already a fan of his philosophies. You're already being invited, even if you don't hear it. I think all you have to do at this point is close your eyes and pray a little. "I heard you knocking, Jesus. C'mon in and perfect me. I welcome you into my heart." That sort of thing. Have you tried it before? Even if you have, give it another go or ten. He rewards persistence, and sometimes he tests us to see if we really mean it. If you really mean it, you'll never stop asking, begging for Christ to come in and start repairing any remaining flaws. Maybe he's already part of you, too, and you're already saved; it's a very subtle feeling sometimes, easy to miss. And if you ever got saved in a past life (yes, Christians can believe in reincarnation, there's actually scripture supporting it), you, your soul, was born into this life sort of "pre-saved." You just wouldn't remember getting saved. You may have already been literally born again, and all this worrying for nothing. Or you may not have been. There's no way for me to know which. All I can do is present possibilities.

Exactly. There's no way for you to know.

I'm going to just keep being me, and I appreciate your recognition of the Divine in me. So, I believe I'm doing whatever it is I'm meant to be doing, and I don't feel that "Jesus" is ignoring me just because I haven't invited him in. Like you said, I'm already living that way.

So - "am I sure"? No, I'm not sure of anything except that I'm living to the best of my ability, flaws and all.
As for "God" and "Jesus" -
I am an agnostic. Not an atheist.

Short answer: No, I am not sure. I don't know. Therefore, I don't claim to have instructions or advice for people that are "truth."

But I see you mean this with kindness and not judgment, so - thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts.
See you on the flip side. Who knows maybe we'll reincarnate together into a physical plane and we can continue talking. Maybe we're both being polished to come back as helpers.
Maybe we already are back as helpers (and yes, I have often stated my feeling that Jesus was talking about reincarnation, and also that I have read about "evidence" that points to him being in India during his lost years).

Like Indy said, maybe these ascended masters are all the same - Jesus for the Jews, and as someone else to some other group like Indigenous Americans, Krishna for others, etc.

"I have a flock in another fold."
I'm kind of more inclined to follow Krishna, or Buddha - let's say, for purposes of analogy: The Jesus that most people talk about smells fishy to me....that's all.

Namaste = the divine in me recognizes the divine in you. That is enough.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You said

The Jesus that most people talk about smells fishy to me....that's all.

That's all you need to say to justify yourself.

If you say no, then you say no. For anyone to then force you, that is spiritual rape.

a reply to: WarminIndy

If you thought my argument became ridiculous because I was making the comparison to reincarnation and going by the whole natural movement of the thread, what IS the purpose of not being forced to believe in Jesus Christ?

I think that you were changing the subject, switching attention to what you know of what I believe in, away from my challenge to a specific poster, Thought Provoker, and also Ketusko who posted in the same vein, to explain how believeing in Jesus saves us from death.

But I am not asking you to believe in Jesus Christ. No matter what we we all believe, the truth is that we live and die regardless of how we believe.

It's not always about you, Indy, and you don't need to mitigate every challenge and criticism directed toward other followers of your chosen faith postings, yourself.

And that is really what reincarnation, Nirvana and Jesus Christ offers, peace.

No, they are not the same at all, and personally, I don't believe in Heaven or in Nirvana. How can one believe in an end destination and in eternal life and eternity at the same time? It's unrealistic, unless you envision Nirvana or Heaven as a static state of never ending bliss.

Look around you, and all you see is change, the only constant that you can count on! Life, eternal or not, is a moving river. Get a raft and grab a pole and a paddle, lets go exploring!