How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

a reply to: WarminIndy

If I am reincarnated against my will, no matter if I believe in it or not, is reincarnation removing my free will?

At least Jesus offers it to you, never against your will.

Perhaps Jesus saves you from the endless karmic cycle of forced reincarnation against your will.

i look at it like a teacher. the point of being a teacher is to help others comprehend what you have already at least partially mastered. like jesus did in the bible. but at some point, you are going to have to return to school yourself (reincarnation) to refresh and update your mastery, in order to better help those who are less masterful than yourself. what if you decide you dont care to refresh or update your mastery? what if you think what you already know or experienced is good enough to teach for the rest of your teaching career? in todays society, you either go back to class or you are forced to stop teaching in a professional capacity. in spirituality, its not that simple, but i still think the principle applies.

deciding the karmic cycle, or reincarnation cycle, is too tedious and boring could be compared to the typical teenage regard for school in general. they want to get the ordeal over with as quickly and easily as possible so they can stagnate in peace. and thats really how i view a "one and done" incarnation process. its lazy and stagnant. one life time? please, there is so much more to learn. and if you arent here to learn...by the gods, what ARE you here for?

a reply to: WarminIndy

The best that we can hope for is to be at peace when we die. That means also peace with ourselves. Some people don't die in peace and some people leave a mess behind them that the rest of the people they harmed have to deal with. What do we say then for those who do not die in peace?

"Go in peace", without any preconceived notion of "where".

Contrast that with popular movie notions of exorcism, wherein a particular destination is visualized and a particular set of words is used. If the person not at peace is not at peace with that particular belief set, then the exorcise (pun) is counterproductive.

On the scale of Justice/Peace we just have to lighten up on justice and say "Go in peace".

And this may sound like blasphemy to some; It's on your own authority, not authority borrowed from using the name of one deity or another.

And now for a musical interlude:


Visualize Boy Blue, the heroic fighter.

But it wasn't people he was fighting,

rather, it was the principalities and powers,

gods and devils.

You know, just cruising around ATS, and it occurred to me that this "You have to accept Jesus" when one can't is the same as insisting someone who is gay become straight.

Just an afterthought.......

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
You know, just cruising around ATS, and it occurred to me that this "You have to accept Jesus" when one can't is the same as insisting someone who is gay become straight.

Just an afterthought.......

its the first step in teaching us what to think and not how to think. "this is the answer" instead of "this is how you find the answer"

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Back in the old days, there was a horrible human sexual activity that was labeled "self abuse". Some pious people who engaged in it would seek to alleviate their guilt by "self flagellation", belts, whips, lots of pain and blood.

We don't see much of that any more do we?

It's less painful to find fault in someone else's sexual activity and whip on them instead. So have we progressed or regressed?

a reply to: windword


If your views are ever changing, then say your views are ever changing.

If you feel offended, then my apologies.

The answer you might have wanted to hear them say is this...

According to Orthodox Christianity, Jesus saves you from the very human condition of pain and sorrow by taking that onto Himself. We are humans born into this condition. Some are born to wealth and some are born to great poverty. But we where all born with the capacity to love, hate, show compassion or cruelty. We were all born to feel some kind of pain or sorrow. We cannot in this life escape the human condition. So that's the answer I can give you from the Orthodox Christian perspective.

And that is why I reject reincarnation, because the continual cycle of human misery cannot be abated if one does not have an end point. That is cruel, I think.

How do we end the human misery? I really would like to know, because it is painful to watch.

I'm merely asking you, what do you say to people who are suffering? The problem is real, surely there must be a cure.

No, it's not about me, it is about a world that is hurting right now. But I suppose that is appeal to emotion. Sorry you are offended. My apologies.

I'm not telling you to believe this way, only asking you for an answer to the problem of the human condition. Perhaps we can together work on helping others.

a reply to: pthena

Back in the old days, there was a horrible human sexual activity that was labeled "self abuse". Some pious people who engaged in it would seek to alleviate their guilt by "self flagellation", belts, whips, lots of pain and blood.

Didn't they also "go blind"? That's what I remember hearing.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: pthena

Back in the old days, there was a horrible human sexual activity that was labeled "self abuse". Some pious people who engaged in it would seek to alleviate their guilt by "self flagellation", belts, whips, lots of pain and blood.

Didn't they also "go blind"? That's what I remember hearing.

No, they turned Japanese.

Wait, you are before the 1980s.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Didn't they also "go blind"? That's what I remember hearing.

Perhaps they thought bloodletting prevented blindness. But it has been shown that fluid pressure in the eye is not related to blood pressure. A person can have low blood pressure yet still have Glaucoma.

So I think the cause of blindness theory has been debunked.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm not telling you to believe this way, only asking you for an answer to the problem of the human condition. Perhaps we can together work on helping others.

You haven't offended me, but again, it's not about you. In asking the question, "Who has been saved from death by believing in Jesus?". I'm addressing the posters who claim that one must believe in Jesus Christ, that he died for my sins and was resurrected, in order to receive salvation from death, the gift of eternal life.

This is a claim that I'm not able to believe.

If your views are ever changing, then say your views are ever changing.

I'm not advocating reincarnation in this thread, and my beliefs on the topic are beside the point. You're trying to bargain with me, trying to get me to admit that I somehow have a similar dogma, in that you assume that I also have faith in dogmatic salvation through my belief in reincarnation, citing a religious tenet of Nirvana. But this is a false premise. I have never claimed a belief in Nirvana or Heaven. As a matter of fact, I don't recall ever writing a treatise for ATS on my personal philosophies regarding reincarnation. I have argued that the concept of reincarnation is included within the Christian narrative and is intrinsic to prophecies of Jesus being the Messiah.

Jesus saves you from the very human condition of pain and sorrow by taking that onto Himself.

Theoretically......But only if I believe in him and ask him to do so, right?

How do we end the human misery?

Death ends misery, period However, Human misery is a personal state of existence. Do you think believing in Jesus ends misery?

a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm not telling you to believe this way, only asking you for an answer to the problem of the human condition. Perhaps we can together work on helping others.

the answer (or part of it) is to stop looking at the human condition like its a problem.

a reply to: WarminIndy

What? No, honey, I was in my 20s in the '80s.

a reply to: WarminIndy

And that is why I reject reincarnation, because the continual cycle of human misery cannot be abated if one does not have an end point. That is cruel, I think.

Okay, so.....

now we see where "chosen beliefs" come in.

You reject reincarnation. But that doesn't mean it isn't true....some people say it is, and some say it isn't. I reject the judgmental image of "Jesus" that includes exclusivity, chosenness, hell-fire and damnation, and some people say "but it's true." Maybe it is, but maybe it's not. I reject it because it is cruel, I think.

To me, reincarnation makes more sense.
To you, Jesus makes more sense.

Is either of those "true"? We don't know. And we won't know, until we slough off 'ex machina' and return to whatever state we are, fundamentally, and without question. We don't know what that "fundamental state" is.

But those who believe in reincarnation don't insist that "you have to believe it, or else."
See what I mean?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
To me, reincarnation makes more sense.
To you, Jesus makes more sense.

Is either of those "true"? We don't know. And we won't know, until we slough off 'ex machina' and return to whatever state we are, fundamentally, and without question. We don't know what that "fundamental state" is.

Actually, one's heart inherently "knows" what our "fundamental state" is. No change in our conditional body-mind is necessary for this tacit recognition to be the case because Reality is beyond and prior to any and all limited conditions - and is already the case regardless.

We just tend to constantly forget this inherent recognition, allowing the events of life to continually discount it. This recognition is no different than the times you looked at your child or intimate and spontaneously felt your inherent love and non-separation.

a reply to: WarminIndy

How do we end the human misery? I really would like to know, because it is painful to watch.

I'm merely asking you, what do you say to people who are suffering? The problem is real, surely there must be a cure.

Perhaps it isn't on your shoulders to provide the panacea. It may feel like it at times. The one yeast doesn't say to the other, "I'm going to come up with the complete cure." Even if the yeast did, a proper response should be, "What? What are you going on about? Just do your thing."

There have been times in my delusion when I've thought, "If I just say the right thing to the right person then the World will be saved!" Or maybe if I write just the right words.



What my daughter calls "The Ralphy Moment", when it begins to dawn upon you, that one essay is probably not the panacea you were looking for.

We just gotta keep on thinking, and writing, and reading, and talking.

a reply to: pthena

There have been times in my delusion when I've thought, "If I just say the right thing to the right person then the World will be saved!" Or maybe if I write just the right words.

Well, no - BUT.....
"If you just say the right thing to the right person" at the right time, it might nudge their trajectory a bit - away from whatever direction of misery they are heading. I'm talking about kids with crap parents, and those who are in despair...... You just never know.

HOWEVER, BUT! It doesn't mean telling people they "have to" do anything like accept Jesus or go to hell - or stop being gay or go to hell. I'm NOT talking about taking prisoners into a private room and insisting they MUST accept Jesus......

I'm talking about telling someone on the brink of suicide that they are worthy. That sort of thing.
I dunno. Maybe most of ATS is unaware of that sort of thing.

a reply to: WarminIndy

And that is why I reject reincarnation, because the continual cycle of human misery cannot be abated if one does not have an end point. That is cruel, I think.

How do we end the human misery? I really would like to know, because it is painful to watch.

The concept of reincarnation, as I see it, is that each life is a sequel to the previous. Karmic retribution. If you led a good life, your next won't be as hard. If you led a horrible life, your next one will be painful.

Still lessons that need to be learned.

And, unlike windword, I feel that "Nirvana" IS SALVATION. The idea is that we eventually, after however many lifetimes, "get it." Then, we are ready to remain in "Nirvana" and not have to "come back" anymore. One reaps what one sows. That sort of thing.

On the other hand, I've read theories about how reincarnation isn't all that different from "we are stardust", or the theory that our energy and atoms are recycled, reused, repurposed. I've read about "once a human, always a human", or "advanced human souls become dolphins or whales or elephants." Or, we might return as bugs or grass, or snakes, or what have you.

I just really don't know. I'm not there yet.
Maybe Jesus had 'arrived' at that state of knowing, and chose to come back to help others. Maybe the same for Buddha, Krishna, etc. (I don't count Mohammed, because frankly, I think he was a d-bag.....However, the offshoot of Islam, Baha'i, has some great concepts about universal Oneness, which I think is great. But Muslims have murdered Baha'is for not adhering to "their" dogma (not to mention Christians and other Muslims). And that, in my opinion and cognizance and in the depths of my soul, IS JUST WRONG).

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Well, no - BUT.....

In that BUT lies the secret hidden mystery that is the mystery of Christ.

Little people doing little things, the results of which are invisible.

That's not a mystery which I can easily discount.

away from whatever direction of misery they are heading. I'm talking about kids, and those who are in despair...... You just never know.

I had a few teachers who did that for me. As I think back though, it wasn't the ones who were explicitly trying to. Except maybe one, and she was an atheist.

And, it's taken me these 20 years to appreciate it.

a reply to: pthena

In that BUT lies the secret hidden mystery that is the mystery of Christ.

Little people doing little things, the results of which are invisible.

That's not a mystery which I can easily discount.

Me, neither.
Thanks, brother.