NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: Gorman91

Our representatives are democratically elected and that is where the democracy ends aside from some ballot initiatives. The US is a constitutional republic and the founding fathers that took part in the architecture of that constitution have made clear unmistakable statements that the US is not founded on Christianity.


This is a quote from one of my posts earlier in the thread.

Treaty of Tripoli


"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

Written by Joel Barlow who had served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. It was signed on 4 November, 1796 during George Washington's last term as president. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797.

Ths is a quote from SkepticOverlord earlier in the thread.

James Madison, the person most-responsible for getting all the states to ratify the constitution, said the following while President, putting it on the official record: "The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”

You had also said: "It's also been pretty clearly noted that their definition of secular is not the same as ours today".

I am sure you can produce links to back that statement up so I would like to see them. Thank you in advance for doing so.

a reply to: Grimpachi

May not have to produce links. Just give me the context for those quotes?

Because I find it rather ironic the context of the Tripoli documents, namely the war we waged, very likely for mostly economic reasons, but as I mentioned a few pages back, likely also because Jefferson disliked the Koranic justification for the slavery and extortion of the North African trade lines.

IE, the context is he wanted to make it clear it wasn't a crusade. He just really disliked that particular socio-economic kind of Islam.

a reply to: windword

It also ended human slaughter for entertainment, crashed the corrupt imperial system and replaced it with an agrarian system, and likely preserved most of the texts of the era we can still read.

Also, I'm someone who thinks genocide is occasionally justified. IE, slaughtering thousands upon thousands of German and Japanese citizens in WW2.

Again, how nice of you to take a few decades to a century or two of imperialism by a one or two nations and make broad strokes across 2000 years with it.

a reply to: Gorman91

That is your opinion do you have anything that can back it up?

BTW did you read my quote? I ask because as I stated the Treaty was written and signed during our first president's second term. So it is plain and it is very clear the sentiments span multiple presidencies.

a reply to: windword

The united states is a democratic republic with the separation of church and state. That does not make it a secular nation in the sense you think of.

In fact if you knew the rather protestant origins of secular state, namely Luther's "Two Kingdoms", you'd probably feel foolish. Namely, because Madison marked that as the origin of such ideas.

originally posted by: Gorman91
a reply to: Annee

Probably a dumb idea to judge 2000 years of missionary work based off one state-sponsored example 1800 years after the fact.

Just saying.

Always the same excuse.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Because sentiments and reality are two very different things, and most founding fathers trace the concept back to Martin Luther's Two Kingdom's doctrine, which states that God rules through two means, one secular and one religious. That men are appointed to govern in each and not conflict with the other. But they are still both under that very Christian, very Protestant, very religious view of God.

Luther's doctrine, whom Madison pointed to as the origin of the concept, states:

God has ordained the two governments: the spiritual, which by the Holy Spirit under Christ makes Christians and pious people; and the secular, which restrains the unchristian and wicked so that they are obliged to keep the peace outwardly… The laws of worldly government extend no farther than to life and property and what is external upon earth. For over the soul God can and will let no one rule but himself. Therefore, where temporal power presumes to prescribe laws for the soul, it encroaches upon God's government and only misleads and destroys souls. We desire to make this so clear that every one shall grasp it, and that the princes and bishops may see what fools they are when they seek to coerce the people with their laws and commandments into believing one thing or another.

a reply to: Annee

Sects are not an excuse. They're an historic reality. If you'd like to deny the evolution of religions and politics in history and call it an excuse, be my guest.

Personally? Like I said. Occasionally, a genocide is justifiable. Rome had how many millions of people slaughtered by foreign hoards because the Christians helped bring down the state? Those people were animals. Very justified imo.

The Bible indicates precisely who is "Lord of this world". Not the world
God intended for man but, this world. Satan tempted Jesus with ALL the
kingdoms of the earth if he would bow down and worship him. Christ did
not dispute Satans ownership. And Satan couldn't have been bluffing with
so much at stake.



Has there ever been a Christian nation? How could there be?

a reply to: Gorman91

Not to get too off-topic, but genocide, by its very nature, requires the slaughter of innocents: it is therefore, never justified, as there is no "justice" within it, only cruel, merciless judgement and brutality.

- AB

a reply to: Gorman91

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793

“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

“Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
~Founding Father John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)

“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
~John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788

“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”
~Founding FatherJohn Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

“It is only when the people become ignorant and corrupt, when they degenerate into a populace, that they are incapable of exercising the sovereignty. Usurpation is then an easy attainment, and an usurper soon found. The people themselves become the willing instruments of their own debasement and ruin. Let us, then, look to the great cause, and endeavor to preserve it in full force. Let us by all wise and constitutional measures promote intelligence among the people as the best means of preserving our liberties.”
~Founding Father James Monroe, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1817

“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
~Founding Father James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

a reply to: Gorman91

I'm not going to argue about how terrible and destructive the Christian religion has been and continues to be. Thank Zeus, I don't have to.

The united states is a democratic republic with the separation of church and state. That does not make it a secular nations.

Secularity (adjective form secular,from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal") is the state of being separate from religion, or not being exclusively allied with or against any particular religion. en.wikipedia.org...

The United States of America makes no claim to be anything but temporal and worldly. The founding fathers made it clear that they didn't wan't politicians pretending to wrap their decisions in a cloak of divinity.

A secular state is a concept of secularism, whereby a state or country purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.

A secular state also claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion, and claims to avoid preferential treatment for a citizen from a particular religion/nonreligion over other religions/nonreligion.

Secular states do not have a state religion (established religion) or equivalent, although the absence of a state religion does not necessarily mean that a state is fully secular; however, a true secular state should steadfastly maintain national governance without influence from religious factions; i.e. Separation of church and state.
en.wikipedia.org...

^^^Describes the good ole USA and the intent of the founding fathers to a T!

The U.S. is not a Christian Nation. It is a Religious Nation, by choice. And only by allowing free choice will it continue. The first Congress worked on Christmas Day because they believed that Religion shouldn't interfere with Government. None of the Founding Fathers ever asked anyone to stop believing in their chosen Religion.

Thomas Jefferson
“(my views are a) result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and much different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions.”


James Madison:
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."


Patrick Henry made a very clear statement: "It cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ....It is for this reason that people of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."


Benjamin Franklin stood and addressed the Continental Congress with these words: "In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor....Have we now forgotten this powerful friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?

I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

“The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My mother taught me to seek all truth in the Bible.”
--Nikola Tesla

“(modern science) was born out of a Christian worldview.”
--J. Robert Oppenheimer “On Science an Culture”, Encounter, Oct. 1962

"My worldly faculties are slipping away day by day. Happy it is for all of us that the true good does not lie in them.
As they ebb, may they leave us as little children, trusting in the Father of Mercies and accepting His unspeakable gift.
I bow before Him who is Lord of all.”
--Michael Faraday, on his death bed, one of the greatest experimental philosophers, Doctorate from Oxford University, holding 97 unsought for distinctions who discovered Electricity

“Education is useless without the Bible.”
--Noah Webster, Webster’s Dictionary

“If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ.”
--Jonathan Trumbull, c. 1770; Faith of Our Fathers Newsletter Fall 2003, vol 1 Issue 11

a reply to: Verum1quaere

James Madison:
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

The origination of that quote comes from page 120 of David Barton's book The Myth of Separation, David Barton quotes James Madison as saying:

The only problem with the above is, no such quote has ever been found among any of James Madison's writings. None of the biographers of Madison, past or present have ever run across such a quote, and most if not all would love to know where this false quote originated. Apparently, David Barton did not check the work of the secondary sources he quotes.

If the U.S.of A. is not a christian nation then why do some surveys show that in the vicinity of 75% of Americans identify themselves as christian?

I just find it weird that everybody following the guy apparently got killed for it or banished. Nobody gained anything by following him but people kept following. Seems like any argument about him gets super heated. a reply to: windword

originally posted by: hudsonhawk69
If the U.S.of A. is not a christian nation then why do some surveys show that in the vicinity of 75% of Americans identify themselves as christian?

If most of people that shop at a particular Piggly Wiggly are Christians, does that make the Piggly Wiggly a Christian business?