NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: AboveBoard

You're assuming innocent people exist in wartime.

In wartime, women and children are assets of the enemy. Destroying them destroys my enemy.

a reply to: windword

It's also why government power should be severely limited - because humans are infinitely corruptible when given such power.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Half of these don't even talk about separation of church and state, and the other half either repeat previous points or go on tangents.

I, too, can quote random quotes if you'd like?

a reply to: windword

You're doing that thing again. Using contemporary words and assuming they haven't changed from their ancient times. Even Martin Luther favored a secular state dude. But I doubt you would agree with his definition of it.

There is a time for the beautifully destructive and chaotic power Christianity brings to a government. I think that time nears.

a reply to: dasman888

“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
~John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788

a reply to: Deaf Alien

It all depends on how you define "nation", and it underscores how the journalistic standards of NLBS are on the decline. They haven't precisely defined "nation" and as a result have produced a video with an extremely misleading title. The only way the video title even makes sense is if you accept a particular definition of "nation", that is, one which only takes into account the law and not the people who comprise the nation. Lol. They're just trying to stir the pot with a sensational clickbait title ..

originally posted by: Gorman91
a reply to: AboveBoard

You're assuming innocent people exist in wartime.

In wartime, women and children are assets of the enemy. Destroying them destroys my enemy.

Are these Christian values?

You're doing that thing again. Using contemporary words and assuming they haven't changed from their ancient times.

How can a nation profess to be a Christian nation that has Christian values and still carry the sentiments of your above statement? How can a Christian nation enforce borders or decide who is and isn't worthy of entry, amnesty or asylum?

If The United States of America ever was a Christian nation, then it is a bigger example of hypocrisy than the Vatican! If however, the United States of America is a government of the people, by the people and for the people, then the bond of the people's fortitude is the basis of their country.

The founding fathers never intended for our leaders to wrap their politics in a cloak of divinity. They got enough of that in England.

originally posted by: Gorman91
a reply to: Grimpachi

Half of these don't even talk about separation of church and state, and the other half either repeat previous points or go on tangents.

I, too, can quote random quotes if you'd like?

If you think those are random quotes that do not directly pertain to the question of if this is a Christian nation I apologize. I apologize because it seems I had seriously overestimated your intelligence thankfully you have readjusted my perception.

However, I will give a few more quotes to ponder.

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible...Some books on Deism fell into my hands...It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist."
-Benjamin Franklin, "Toward the Mystery" (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice....he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers...Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

originally posted by: windword
How can a nation profess to have Christian values and still carry the sentiments of your above statement? How can a Christian nation enforce borders or decide who is and isn't worthy of entry, amnesty or asylum?

If The United States of America ever was a Christian nation, then it is a bigger example of hypocrisy than the Vatican! If however, the United States of America is a government of the people, by the people and for the people, then the bond of the people's fortitude is the basis of their country.

The founding fathers never intended for our leaders to wrap their politics in a cloak of divinity. They got enough of that in England.

The same way you may claim to be a "good" person but have done "bad" things in the past. The same way a "Muslim nation" will tolerate the consumption of alcohol and perhaps even have a liberal stance on women's rights, if that's what it takes to keep the peace. I know of nothing in life which is black and white outside of mathematics.

A nation of Christians, maybe. A nation that has Christians in its population, yes. A Christian nation, no. And any Christian who believes the U.S. Is a Critian nation should be ashamed of this country.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

The United States of America doesn't tolerate things that Christians see as sins, they protect peoples rights to "sin", regardless of religious proclivities.

Americans don't tolerate abortion, they've ruled it a protected right. The same with divorce and pre-marital sex, and a myriad of other rights we take for granted that are not just tolerated, but protected personal rights.

a reply to: windword

Not sure why you're focusing on my use of "tolerate". It sounds like you're telling a joke with no punchline. No matter, let's take a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia which has codified a law to allow for the drinking of alcohol in designated public places.

a reply to: Cricketine

Do you think there is any nation with a clean slate?

a reply to: windword

Hell no. These are winning military values. In war, you kill your enemy until they surrender. Then you absorb them and destroy their culture least they ever rise above you. That's not anything Christian. That's victory in war. You can be a Christian, an atheist, a scientologist, or even an atheist. That's what you do to win a war.

In order to answer your questions, you should read the man who inspired such ideas of the separation of church and state: Martin Luther. His doctrine of Two Kingdoms is relevant. Madison claims it was the origin of such ideas.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Cool so rather than explain how choosing rationalism over superstition = America is not a Christian nation (Despite Luther having argued similar grounds, and advocating for a properly regulated Christian nation that is separate from Christian faith), you say I'm too dumb to understand.

Cool story brah. Tell me again how posting random quotes = "I'm right" in your mind. Lend me more reason to view you as a pseudo-intelectual

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

Saudi Arabia isn't comparable to the United States government. Not sure why you keep bringing up Muslim countries when this thread is about America NOT being a Christian theocracy or a Christian nation, in any way.

a reply to: Gorman91

Madison claims it was the origin of such ideas.

You say Madison, I say Thomas Jefferson, and I raise you one Thomas Paine.

a reply to: windword

"How can a nation profess to be a Christian nation that has Christian values and still carry the sentiments of your above statement? How can a Christian nation enforce borders or decide who is and isn't worthy of entry, amnesty or asylum? "

That's what you asked, and I'm pointing out that a "Muslim nation" does just that. It, like any other theocratic nation, will act in contravention of whatever holy scriptures for political expediency.

a reply to: Gorman91

Cool so rather than explain how choosing rationalism over superstition = America is not a Christian nation (Despite Luther having argued similar grounds, and advocating for a properly regulated Christian nation that is separate from Christian faith), you say I'm too dumb to understand.

Yup...or your are just being completely intellectually dishonest by trying to dismiss direct quotes from the founding fathers and the Treaty of Tripoli which directly states America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion even though it spans the first two presidencies and was written by a former chaplain that served under George Washington which was ratified unanimously by the senate.

Cool story brah. Tell me again how posting random quotes = "I'm right" in your mind. Lend me more reason to view you as a pseudo-intelectual

You claim that direct quotes from the founding fathers which pertain to subject at hand are random. I think you do not know what pseudo-intellectual actually means, but if you have a mirror close by you can get a look at one.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

That's what you asked, and I'm pointing out that a "Muslim nation" does just that. It, like any other theocratic nation, will act in contravention of whatever holy scriptures for political expediency.

Muslim nations' law are based on the Quran, and whatever holy books and Imans dictate. The United States' laws aren't based on the Bible, especially the New Testament. If they were, we couldn't carry out wars, the way we do, or lock down our borders, the way we do, because those values go against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

USA laws, to its core, break the tenets of the 10 Commandments and the teachings of Jesus to boot! ]