The Young Ladies of 2015 not the 1950's

Most modern kids are raised to be entitled little brats.

Their parents (YOU) went without because your parents knew that making sure that kids went without some stuff made them more appreciate the stuff they already had.

Unfortunately, those parents (YOUR generation) completely missed the lesson of WHY they went without.

When you give kids everything they want and let them behave how they want, you turn them into entitled jerks, who expect stuff rather than appreciate it.

These "millenials" are kids that are very different from those in the 1950's. Kids of the 1950's had respect for their parents, teachers, and rule of law. Today's kids seldom have any of those things, and think they can do whatever they want.

It's time to stop giving kids everything they want, to stop letting them control situations, and to go back to PARENTING.

a reply to: babybunnies

Yep, but let's not go down the road of violence just because two people have had a verbal disagreement as a previous poster has advocated.

My guess you are turning this into a gender issue just because you have two girls. If you had a few boys instead, I'm sure your mother would be talking about them too.

Besides, why in the world would you equate being soft spoken and graceful with weakness? There's nothing wrong with these qualities - they are good and not bad.

It's not progress if you discourage qualities just because they were historically associated with females. In fact, you should teach your daughters that loud and aggressive behavior should only be used in extreme situations.

a reply to: Daughter2

Who was that aimed at/replying to?

The question of using physical violence in a conflict (that has so far been primarily verbal) doesn't seem quite as clear cut as some would like to say it is.

This, I learned from having sons, and a husband, and becoming familiar with the male mind.

The argument that a girl should never respond physically to a man who is abusing her verbally, because of the threat that he will also respond physically (and being stronger, probably more damaging) is what keeps boys able to continue such behavior unheeded.

We women tend to see verbal abuse or attacks as forceful; that a word can hurt one intensely. I have seen that many males do not share this view. A large portion of males are less sensitive to verbal assaults. This might be partly physiological in nature (see the thread on "The Feminine Man"). Perhaps largely due to environmental influence - more or less implicit messages that boys should be tougher, the practice boys and men do in teasing each other with insults and name calling, which all serve to de-sensitize them to words.

The result is that boys and young men can be ignorant of the effect words can have on more sensitive people.
Relatively speaking, they can become sort of "emotionally deaf".

In social exchanges, we become aware of the impact we have on others through how they respond to what we do.
Actually receiving a physical blow can communicate a physical equivalent of an emotional blow. It can help them grasp the gravity of their words on others. "Hurts like this, but in emotion"

Also, or perhaps as part of that emotional disassociation, men especially do not recognize others subjectively as easily or quickly as females tend to. It is through clashes that they can feel that they "break through barriers" and become aware of other; that the other is not just an object, but with an internal subjective world.

There is often a strange sort of relief in that recognition- that there is not just this world outside of objects.

I think that in the world of male mind, there is an important place for conflict, and skin-to-skin contact which differs for most women. It is also an important part of their hierarchial tendancies- part of gaining your role in the structure, which once set, is respected.

AS much as we women would like for men to understand us, I think some effort should be made on our parts to understand them too.

My daughter did kick boxing, and played rugby for many years, on a team in which she was one of only two girls. She is very feminine, always had long hair, is beautiful and not even very tall. From having brothers , I think she figured this out. She got in fist fights in junior high, with a couple of bullies, that were known for pushing others around (and twice her size). She didn't let them do it to her, and broke noses and all. But this did NOT provoke any revenge attempts!
They were humiliated and shut down their behavior, and she was respected by all. That put an end to fighting for her, no one else wanted to mess with her (but all wanted to be her friend).

Sometimes you have to make a point, once and for all, in a way the other person can actually feel.

a reply to: zbeliever

I think that girls/women...boys/men... should do what they want to do and have a voice...have the careers they want...have the relationships they want...or don't want.

However...I too think that good manners go a long way...people can get their point across and be strong about their opinions without berating someone else...and using swear words...and acting too egotistical...which behavior I have observed all too often in society these days.

I say (to many in society) instead of swearing and thinking you are better than everyone else...use your intelligence and knowledge...have compassion for others... and be strong in what you believe.

Remember...everyone matters...everyone wants their voice to be heard...remember to listen and care.

a reply to: zbeliever

It's probably not going to be a popular view with the older dinosaurs on this board (i'm older, just quite un-dinosaur like), but i grew up for years in a mostly Female dominated household, which is to say, for a time, there was my Mother, my two older Sisters, and then me the youngest and a boy.

I can tell you from personal experience of almost 48 years and counting, that apart from the obvious physiological differences necessary to continue our species, and of course the ever present cultural differences imposed by society over the years...Females and Males are exactly the same...there are no differences other than those that are only perceived through societal conditioning.

We want the same things, we enjoy the same things, we dream the same, we reason the same, we love the same, we live the same...we ARE the same...always have been, and accepting the physical and sociological impositions outlined above, we always will be the same.

The only reason for our genders is to procreate, and nothing else.

Your Girls ought to acts exactly as they want to act...don't allow someone else's view of what is appropriate behaviour for one gender over another influence you as their parent or indeed them themselves.

a reply to: Bluesma

That's not entirely true.

My husband is aware of it. There is a certain tone I use with my sarcasm that lets him know he's cut the wrong way.

We both have dry sense of humor. His has been described as the Sahara of humor. It means we are both sort of sarcastic. Usually that's a gently sarcasm with each other, but there is a certain tone of voice I take with him that let's him know in no uncertain terms that playtime is over and he's gone too far. He reads it very well, backs off and usually apologizes.

I almost never have to actually raise my voice with him.

It's a matter of knowing the person you are with on a deep, personal level. And you can't make preconceptions about all men being one way or all women being another. Those are stereotypes just as much as the ideas we spin around about all Christians X or all African-Americans Y.

a reply to: MysterX

Nope sorry. Boys and girls are different.

We may have similar hopes and dreams and the same emotions, but our biology makes us differ in some basic but important ways. Sure there are crossovers and people who blur the lines, but the hormonal cocktail alone that the two genders receive make them differ in small but important ways.

a reply to: zbeliever

It seems to me that your mother was basing her opinion on that one sleepover night's ruckus, which would not be a true example of how the girls may behave normally. Sleepovers tend to bring out the pillow fight in a girl. However, if your two girls are naturally boisterous, then perhaps your mother is the type of person that prefers peace and quiet.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, no generalization englobes all the individuals, that is why it is a generalization. I would like to point out that it sounds like your husband is most likely an adult, no? Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, I tried to use the words "boys" and "young men" -referring to a certain lack of maturity and experience.

I often voice my opinion that individuals develop more understanding of (and similarity to) members of the other sex through intimate relationships- so a 15 year old boy is going to have a vastly different level of sensitivity and comprehension of women than a married adult man.

Generalities are based on majority trends within a specified group- I stand by assertion that amongst boys and young men that are unmarried or lacking in long term intimate relational experience with women, they tend to have, in the majority, less sensitivity to verbal aggression, and less awareness of their effects on others in terms of emotional impact.
I think this is due to cultural conditioning, though recent studies indicate some real physical and hormonal reasons for it too.

a reply to: Bluesma

Oh, well when it comes to teens, IME no one cuts more with words than teen girls do.

originally posted by: Bluesma
The question of using physical violence in a conflict (that has so far been primarily verbal) doesn't seem quite as clear cut as some would like to say it is.

It is completely clear cut. Nobody should use physical violence because a verbal exchange has upset or offended them, nobody.
In every civilised country it is against the law aside from using reasonable force to protect oneself or others from harm. It is also completely indefensible morally.
The contributing member in this thread who is proud that her daughter sneakily slammed the face of a guy who said something "untoward" to her into his car steering wheel actually disgusts me. Promoting premeditated violence to break someones nose over comments which offended her, really? Is that where we are at now?

Bluesma, I respect much of what I see you contribute on ATS, but are you really advocating now that men are desensitised to bad words so it is an acceptable option for women to use physical violence when men are disrespectful/offensive/whatever verbally towards them? That is a shamefully and disgraceful sexist stance, and I am shocked for the second time in this topic.

You say us blokes tease or call names to each other, yes of course we do, but it aint as clear cut as you make out. I work on construction sites and yes we rip each other all day, it's a laugh and for fun, but you know what, if any bloke has something serious going on the sympathy and compassion comes out one to one and even in a group setting because we aint cavemen.
I've touched the shoulder of a few massive blokes as they shed a tear on site, and so has everyone else I know. Pisstake is completely different to being cruel, and cruelty is frowned upon by all decent blokes.
A guy on site last week was upset after he'd split with his woman. Once word had spread everyone cut him a bit of slack with due care for his feelings, then a day or so later the jokes started that he was a crap shag so she found someone better etc.
I said it myself as a tease to his face and to snap him out of his depression, he laughed, because that's what us blokes do, take the piss and move on....but then during a quiet moment one to one I empathised and shared my own broken heart stories to help him feel that all of us understand and care.

So no, all your claims that us blokes are almost caveman like who sometimes need a physical attack by women is complete rubbish in my opinion. There is never any excuse for females to use violence over words, not in law, or any moral argument.
Anyone who is proud of such attacks does a disservice to women and shows their true violent colours.

And as I said in a previous post, what would happen if the foolishly violent woman breaks the nose of a wife beater type over something he said? A beating, rape, possibly death?
A broken nose has never stopped me fighting, just made me more angry.

Violence should be avoided at all costs aside from protection of yourself or others, so if you are really advocating that men are rough cavemen and because of that it is sometimes acceptable for women to use violence against them if they say the wrong thing, then frankly I'm a bit disgusted.

You have the right to your opinion- on this topic, and on me as well.

I do not hold the opinion that physical conflicts are never ever appropriate or acceptable.


I also do not believe that females should be taught to never ever defend themselves physically. I was a victim of being physically attacked when young and that specific principle kept me passive and taking it, becoming a target for anyone who wanted to beat on someone, anyone, for fun. Until the day I had to strike back before I lost consciousness. Then it all stopped. Self defense is sometimes necessary. Especially when it comes to kids.

There is a reason young boys have more rough and tumble games, it is a part of gaining confidence in yourself, and your body. Teenage boys, especially, often come to a period in which they find relief in finally coming up against someone who has an impact and set them limits that are concrete and felt. –Not just imaginary verbal lines. The hormonal surges of adolescence are sometimes overwhelming to the boy, their own force can seem out of their ability to control completely, and knowing that there are others that help him with that control can be comforting.

Wait until your girls become constant victims of sexual harassment from boys, starting with verbal attacks, and then getting more and more intense, (being grabbed, touched, forcefully groped). Tell her to just say no, and see if those boys will suddenly control themselves. Or make her dependant upon you or some other male, to come in and use the physical force to protect her.

The problem with that second approach is that you can’t always be with her. If she can’t defend herself, might as well move to Saudi Arabia, cover her up completely and live within laws which make her unable to go outside without a male escort.

I don’t know what you find sexist about my position- I think that it is sexist to condone the natural effects of testosterone altogether, making masculinity “bad” or unacceptable.

There is a time and place for everything. Everything becomes bad in excess, but in moderation, and in appropriate circumstances, it all has it’s place.


Someone breaking your nose when you didn't deserve it would make you angry, of course. Someone breaking your nose because you were sexually harrassing them in a vulgar way? You don't think a part of you would KNOW you deserved it?
One thing I have seen is that we treat kids as if they are stupid about their own behavior- as if they don't know when they have been out of line and when they haven't. I've found they often do. I have found they even feel like they have no impact on the world or others when they can be cruel, act up, do obviously bad things, and get no appropriate forceful reaction. Then they start upping the ante, trying to get some sort of reaction that reflects they exist for others and their behavior matters.

BTW- I am getting sick of hearing "Bluesma, I respected you until now, now that you have disagreed with me." I am not here to win any popularity contests, and being respected by strangers on the other side of the world is not any sort of a treat for me. I don't choose my opinions or views according to what will please, and will not change them for that reason. I understand people find it uncomfortable that someone disagrees with them, especially principles they feel strongly. But this is not about judging personalities and looking for popularity.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I also do not believe that females should be taught to never ever defend themselves physically.

Neither do I, defence is always acceptable, just you are advocating initiating violence in response to verbal conflict.
That is morally indefensible as you should well know.

...and as far as the sick and tired of "respect until blah" thing goes, I only said it the once, but to be honest I have no respect for your violently inclined views as presented in this thread now. Such acceptance of violence is rather nasty and says much about you.
Even though you appear to state that it is ok for me to stove your face in if you insult me, you can rest assured I would not, ever.
I shall leave such violent options to violently inclined people such as yourself, and defend against them when I need to.

a reply to: ketsuko

In what ways...specifically?

You cannot imagine for example, that Women are more empathic than Men are? Are more sympathetic to the plight of others perhaps?

Are more intuitive maybe?

What areas, even in small measure do you imagine the genders are different?

I have already conceded the obvious physiological differences of the genders, which of course includes hormonal differences required to facilitate procreation...hormonal reaction can indeed change our perception and our action...but this is not a difference, as it is only engendered by the physiological and usually during a short window before, during and after ovulation and menstruation..again, simple biology to facilitate the continuance of our species.

The 'battle of the sexes' is an intellectual construct..it's a divisive and derogatory position that is wilfully encouraged and perpetuated by those people (of either gender) who happen to feel threatened by one gender or the other. It's plastic and contrived and has no basis in any meaningful difference between genders.

It is used to separate and divide our species, just as race, religion, wealth and other socially contrived 'differences' have been similarly used against us throughout history.

But...each to their own view and all that jazz.

originally posted by: grainofsand

Neither do I, defence is always acceptable, just you are advocating initiating violence in response to verbal conflict.
That is morally indefensible as you should well know.

That is your opinion- I now know that is your opinion. I simply do not agree with it. There is no "should" about it.

You are advocating that verbal violence is not possible, which confirms what I said earlier. The "violence of words" is more felt by females when young, whereas boys hardly even recognize it as violent or provoking injury. I am being understanding of that ignorance- if a boy does not understand that "verbal conflict"(verbal sexual harrassment and threats) can have serious impact on the psyche, then they might need some way of grasping the seriousness of that. Kids kill themselves because of other kids who don't get that their words cause injury.

Even though you appear to state that it is ok for me to stove your face in if you insult me, you can rest assured I would not, ever.

I assure you I will not sexually harrass you, so you wouldn't have to face that dilemma. But if I did, I would expect a slap in the face, and even with the sting, I would say, "I guess I deserved that". Especially if I was a guy, bigger and stronger than you, and aware that my verbal behavior was threatening to you.

I shall leave such violent options to violently inclined people such as yourself, and defend against them when I need to.

Thank you.

originally posted by: zbeliever
It's my 72year old mother who see it this way....I just want to confirm that I am on the right path of raising Strong, loud, females that can stand on their own... to: IAmPhoeniX07

and yet, strong and loud males that stand on their own, are often said to be A**holes

Totally weird coincidence- we're presently in a state of crisis here!
My husband and son just left to go deal with a homeless guy, who talked a single mentally weak woman into letting him into her home- and continued to squat the place for days, refusing to leave!

The mother tried to verbally get him to leave, he refused, so she expected her daughter (my sons girlfriend, 20 years old, that lives with him) to be able to get him out when she comes home. She came home today and tried to verbally convince him to leave, and he responded with verbal sexual threats, and then physically trying to rape her.

She is a very thin and short girl, and no match for this guy who is about fifty and three times her weight. So my men are running down, calling the police and rushing to save her.

Goddammit, all because the woman has been conditioned to be nice and be easily frightened by big men and their words.
You guys don't understand how a verbal threat can have such an impact on a weaker being! The fact that the daughter only responded with words probably meant to him that she didn't really mean it! A swift kick in the balls and pinning him on his stomach would have made the message more clear that she was NOT okay with his sexual proposals!

I swear I am not making this up, this is really happening right now, as strange as it is, while I've been in this particular discussion.

a reply to: Bluesma

Cool, the guy sounds like he is a prick who deserves a bit of reasonable force to get him out.
YOU were advocating that it's ok for a woman to initiate physical violence against a man because he said something. That is clearly morally indefensible...as you well know.

*Edit*
Do you hate men or something?
Is it ok for me to slam a woman's face into a steering wheel of her car if she says something of a sexual nature which either offends or upsets me as the previous poster you are desperately defending advocated?
Do you advocate equality between genders or is your equality merely selective and sexist in it's nature?