The Young Ladies of 2015 not the 1950's

a reply to: Connell

yeah I disagree very much.

All my experience has taught me otherwise. I am not even disagreeing with you, I think what you said is not even a reality for me to take an opposing view. I cant even take a modified partial for or against.

Its just not part of the world. You must be very limited in the range of women you can attract and keep. You see I never had limits on the type of woman I wanted and could get. I never had limits for myself.

I dont fit any of those pictures you paint for a man. Really I have never met them outside off far reaching individuals trying too hard. I also dont like weak and feeble people so I wouldnt know what to do with a woman like that besides build her up and send her on her way.

Ancient man was matriarchal also. What you argue is a modern POV about as relevant as grunting loudly is to courtship.

originally posted by: zbeliever
a reply to: sueloujo Defeminize, I understand that. I feel the females of my daughters generation are doing that naturally. We are having a slumber party right now and there are 3 friends spending the night. Earlier tonight the girls were wrestling like boys....This is what started my mothers disapproval, but she has mentioned this topic before.

My oldest four - 3 boys and 1 girl were vietnamese war orphans ( though they adopted me is more like it as they just showed up at the firebase I operated out of on my 2nd and 3rd tours with s.o.g ) that after the rough start they had turned out ok .. daughter played and roughhoused right along with sons ( funny thing is daughter was tougher than the sons were as she always beat them when they roughhoused ) . I taught all of them martial arts along with appreciation for art.. literature .. music .. being a girl never held daughter back she was just as tough as the boys .. now they all married with families of their own doing well .. Will admit Im probably not best influence in world .. but did best could for them .. mostly let them be themselves and encouraged them along the way ..

a reply to: zbeliever

i agree with your point of view. i find that a strong woman that can take care of herself is much more attractive than a woman who seeks a man to lean on.
you're doing a fine job

a reply to: zbeliever

You're not being "progressive" at all. The way you're raising them is the very reason the divorce rates are so high and that our society is so screwed. There are gender roles for a reason, and they aren't all patriarchal social conditioning. They should be what they want to be, and not be told that being a homemaker is wrong. Things were better off when everyone had a family.. a mother and father. Listen to your mom. She's way ahead of you.

I believe that children should be allowed to be who they are. If children are being too loud, whether male or female, I think it is fine to tell them to use their inside voices, but I don't think a girl should be required to be quieter than a boy.

Sal

a reply to: zbeliever

a reply to: zbelieverEven though my daughter is now 28 years old and is a Army Sargent. I brought her up to be independent, free thinker, to love her family and defend them if necessary. She was a honor student in high school. She has always been able to take care of herself. IMO it is the right way to raise your children to be honest, and able to care for themselves in every way possible. Do not depend on help from the government. Love your family with all your heart, defend them fiercely if need be. Never ever bring up old wounds because it only hurt those that you love.

a reply to: zbeliever

I think you are one of those people who do not understand the meaning of strength.

A person can act like a "lady" and be strong.. you don't need to be LOUD, but you need to be able and confident about yourself to assert yourself when necessary. You don't have to be a man, you can be a strong woman and celebrate your femininity.. you can be a woman in every respect, and be the CEO of a company..

LOUD is not strong.. people who are weak try to cover up their weakness with noise... rather than being people who are confident enough in themselves, their intelligence and capabilities to assert themselves when it is warranted.

Having grace is simply beautiful in anyone but in a woman it celebrates being a woman... and you don't have to turn into a man in order to succeed in life... grace is just plain nice.

I would probably find myself in agreement with your mother, and I think you simply don't understand what it means to be strong... or that you have yet to realize you can be a graceful, beautiful confident and softer spoken FEMALE, and succeed in every respect in life, WITHOUT once coming across as weak.

But then, I didn't allow LOUD from my son either, but I helped give him confidence and taught him how to be graceful too.. just as I did my daughter. In life they were both soft-spoken yet assertive, intelligent and graceful children - who had the capability to succeed in anything they chose (and choose)

a reply to: KnightLight

when I started reading your post at one point I had to check your avatar to make sure your werent my husband ... lol..

When you do have kids, lead by example ... that goes a long long way.. show them strength in your actions, show them the things you want them to learn..teach them confidence by being confident in them first..and make sure you give them the advice and the tools they will need in life.. and most of all, love them.

originally posted by: KnightLight

originally posted by: zbeliever
a reply to: sueloujo Defeminize, I understand that. I feel the females of my daughters generation are doing that naturally. We are having a slumber party right now and there are 3 friends spending the night. Earlier tonight the girls were wrestling like boys....This is what started my mothers disapproval, but she has mentioned this topic before.

Interesting.

Why would it be bad for girls to know how to move their weight around, and protect their physical space?

I don't think Lion girls and Lion guys argue about who get's to have claws and kill things.

Play fighting is very enriching for feeling your body and building confidence. It's how we learn.

And then.. Later on when some guy is being a shmuck... She already fighting girls with lower centers of gravity.. She will throw his ass on the ground. BAM.

My wife can throw a scary head kick. The girl can roll on the ground too. I am so proud and it gives me a bit of peace of mind knowing that if I'm not around she could probably knock somebody out.

a reply to: KnightLight

A girl needs to learn how to protect herself... but against a man she needs to learn how to gain the upper hand and that is not through sheer strength, as women are usually physically smaller and weaker.

One of my favorite stories about my daughter was when she and a couple of her friends were in the park and a truck pulled up with one of the boys from school, he pulled over (I think he had a friend with him in the truck at the time) and said something untoward to the girls..

my daughter, the fighter she was.. just smiled real sweet, and walked up to his truck.. smiling the whole time..then when she got to his window, she put her hand in (he wasn't at all feeling threatened.. lol) and then grabbed the back of his head, smashing his face into the steering wheel.. and broke his nose.

The boy was 6'2" and a farm boy so no lack of strength there.. and my daughter was a foot shorter and a hundred pounds soaking wet.



He apologized to her and her friends, after his visit to the hospital was over. (I also got an apology from his grandmother) But THAT is strength, that is confidence... yet it utilizes all the tools at one's disposal..

a reply to: zbeliever

They may need to be strong, but in order to have successful marriages, they will also need to learn to compromise. It's one thing to stand up for yourself, it's another to try to insist that everything ought to be your way all the time, mistaking that for standing up for yourself. It's also a mistake to think that being loud and brash is being strong. Some of the strongest people, of both genders, that I have ever known were also the quietest. They got what they needed without having to raise their voices.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB

One of my favorite stories about my daughter was when she and a couple of her friends were in the park and a truck pulled up with one of the boys from school, he pulled over (I think he had a friend with him in the truck at the time) and said something untoward to the girls..

my daughter, the fighter she was.. just smiled real sweet, and walked up to his truck.. smiling the whole time..then when she got to his window, she put her hand in (he wasn't at all feeling threatened.. lol) and then grabbed the back of his head, smashing his face into the steering wheel.. and broke his nose.

Wow, so you're proud that after a verbal exchange your daughter sneakily used pre-meditated physical violence with a smile to break someones nose?
Wow, I'm a bit shocked to be fair.
So if your daughter were to say something 'untoward' to a guy, is it ok for him to approach with a smile then unexpectedly slam her face into a steering wheel???

You know the answer to that question and it has nothing to do with gender in this world of equality, it is about using violence in response to a verbal exchange.
You have gone down in my estimation.


*Edit*
Oh, and what happens if your daughter tries that sly trick with a psycho bloke who thinks nothing about beating # into a female? There are plenty in the world and I can tell you one thing, a broken nose has never stopped me fighting, just made me more angry. I hope your violently inclined daughter does not do that to a wife-beater type or she could end up beaten, raped, or dead one day.
Violence over words? Wow, I'm still shocked you think that is ok...and I'd bet all my money that if a man punched your daughter because she said something "untoward" you'd be the first to bleat about it.

a reply to: grainofsand

I don't care how you estimate me actually, and yes, I will always be proud of her for that. It was the only altercation she was ever in in high school, and it was as a result of some fairly bad comments of a sexual nature that she felt the need to stand up for herself concerning.

After that, the boys treated her respectfully... she earned it in their eyes I guess, and she never had another confrontation again the entire time she was in school. She did what she felt warranted for the situation, and in that instance she was not wrong. That makes her both capable and intelligent.

Yes, I am proud of her for that. She didn't need anyone else to defend her, she didn't need to put up with sexual innuendos the rest of the time she was in high school like many girls or cower in fear of boys that were bigger than her and unruly in their manner.

As far as all the future "what-ifs" in life.. there are none for her. The life she lived was one she chose (with one exception which I will not elaborate on), and not one that other people controlled through intimidation. That to me, is the only life worth living...and I am very proud of her for living it to the best of her ability.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Regardless, there is no moral argument for a sly physically violent attack because someone said something offensive to you.
I will happily use reasonable force to defend myself or others, and actually love the rush of it when I find myself in that position, even losing, but I've never been the first to use violence unless I reasonably expected violence to be imminently used against me.

Advocating sly smiling violence over words as something acceptable and something to be proud of?
Wow, I think such an opinion sucks badly and speaks much about the opinionated person who expresses such thoughts.

originally posted by: zbeliever
Any thoughts? or you feel I'm right or do you think my mother time was a better way of up bringing?

Big shift in how we raise our kids period.

I'm in my mid 50s and when I grew up it was a very adult centric world. Today it is very kid focused, and I have two boys that do the same exact thing as your girls with many sleepovers and most of our trips are around them, not to mention soccer mom level of support that a few decades ago just wasn't there. I don't expect your mom to understand anymore, but back in her time to lose a kid or two was somewhat normal...today it is typically seen as life shattering.

a reply to: grainofsand

I do hope your daughters never find out why something like that some day may feel necessary to them... that is very sincere.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I hope your daughters don't use your preferred choice of violence against a guy who has only used words but happens to also be a bloke who enjoys beating women.
Their fate would be something I do not wish to imagine.

...pity you struggle to admit that your violence for words stance is wrong, so obviously morally wrong.
As I said, you have gone down in my estimation.

*Edit*
I shall remember and bookmark this thread OpinionatedB, you assert that violent attack is OK when someone has only used words which upset you.
That is a morally shameful position to hold in my opinion.

a reply to: zbeliever

Every generation goes through this, everyone looks back and sees how things are different to when they were young. Some people deal with it and don't let it affect them, some stick to what they knew and reject change.

This is all about social evolution.

All you can do as a parent is guide your kids as best you can, teach them how to deal with the world around them and let them find their place in it, even if that place doesn't look anything like the environment you grew up in, or your mother, or grandmother...

A lot of parents make the mistake of trying to inflict their world view onto their kids, ultimately holding them back in life. Kids need to grow up surrounded by the modern society they are supposed to live within, not the society a parent WANTS them to live within.

A good example of how parents do it so wrong is with the religious, the strict parents who try to shield their kids from modern society. That is not going to prepare those kids for living in the modern world. You can't create a fantasy society, lie to your kids, and then expect them to do well when they go out into the world and find out how sheltered they were and how the childhood they had prepared them for the 1960's rather than today.

It's the job of a parent to raise decent young people who are driven to be adventurous, thoughtful, driven, sociable, successful... that can't happen if parents raise their kids to be ignorant of the society they will eventually have to live in.

I think you're doing it right OP. You seem to be raising independent kids and you don't care what things were like before - that's not the world they will be living in, so you're right to reject old notions.

Times have certainly changed over the years,we are far more liberal than the 50s or 60s people

My grandmother saw things totally different to my mothers way

My lil girl is 22 now and married with a great professional job and I was very liberal in helping bringing her up

Taught her music and martial arts till she was about 14 and then one day daddy's girl lost interest in both and lol even became embarrassed walking with me while out shopping! But I found that funny and understood teenagers go through changes and parents are not cool any more when there not needed as a taxi service or as a cashpoint machine in their own house

Btw expat,your a great chap for what you did to those war orphans I'm sure your best was far better than many give to their own flesh and blood-good man

Edit the martial arts was good for her but there was one incident when the school got in contact with us as our little angel did a reverse crescent kick on a boy knocking him to the floor and making a mess of his nose!

Apart from that one incident she has behaved

clicked quote instead of edit, lol twat


...didn't click sly punch when someone said something I didn't like though lol that's psycho or sociopathic if you ask me.