Jesus is a man

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The alternative is to allow the trolls to take over the threads, dragging in any irrelevant point they can think of.
I don't object to discussion of the thread topic. I only object to attempts to go outside the thread topic.
You must have noticed that derailing threads is the standard tactic of anti-religious trolling on this site.
So I put up my defences and stick to them.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
What I say in every thread I do is "I'm not going to be dragged off-topic".
The wisdom of this policy is demonstrated by the truly obsessive thread de-railing exercise which was carried out by one of the other posters on this thread.

Given you already mentioned to BlueMule that "one of the other posters" was derailing your thread (apparently because talking about Jesus' human work with his disciples and mysticism were off-limits), are you now saying I am guilty of "anti-religious trolling" as well as "a truly obsessive thread de-railing exercise"?

If so, and I don't know who else you would be talking about since it was mainly a discussion between you and I - then show me even just one post in which I was anti-religious or even not showing great respect for Jesus.

In fact, I even thought I was on topic because I kept talking about Jesus' work as spiritual master with his disciples, both during and after his lifetime.

It was only after you would or could not answer my question about being "born from above" that you got real adamant about only talking about your op with no more mentioning of Jesus' Teachings nor mysticism.

I still don't know what was derailing about our conversation, but that is your right to assume that. I actually found your op very interesting, that is why I asked you various questions about the basis for it in terms of the resurrection, etc.

originally posted by: bb23108
Given you already mentioned to BlueMule that "one of the other posters" was derailing your thread (apparently because talking about Jesus' human work with his disciples and mysticism were off-limits), are you now saying I am guilty of "anti-religious trolling" as well as "a truly obsessive thread de-railing exercise"?

a) The "obsessive thread de-railing exercise" was not you. There was another poster operating at the same period. Look through and you will see what I mean.
b) "Anti-religious trolling" was about activity on the Theology forum as a whole, over the years that I've been watching it.
My policy was evolved in reaction to what I've seen in the past, and then maintained on my threads, including this one.

It was only after you would or could not answer my question about being "born from above"...

I told you I would be discussing the subject on a future thread, but I also indicated that the answer would have something to do with the power of the Holy Spirit coming from above.

Nothing personal, but you may as well be warned that this is my standard practice.
I take a specific, manageable theme. define it as the topic of a thread, and then stick to it.
If I did not, I would get people coming in on a discussion of, say, a specific Bible passage with "prove the Bible is true" or "prove that God exists", which is what happens on other people's threads.
This makes it possible to have discussion specifically on the content of Christian theology without having it turned into yet another repetitive "What other people have got against Christianity" argument.
I do not intend to change my policy.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

Mysticism is a different religion.

It's not a different religion. It's part of every religion. There are mystics in every religion, and there is a layer of esoterica in every religious text of every religion. But only mystics can truly detect it and understand it. Non-mystics are pretty much stuck on the exoteric layer, until they are initiated by that which you would call The Holy Spirit.

When you grok the esoterica of one religion, you grok them all, because it is one cross-cultural thread, weaving through them all, tying them together.

“Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.”

― Meister Eckhart

That's the language Jesus spoke. You have yet to be initiated into it.

👣

Yahoshua never claimed to be the creator God.He said he was the son/seed of the creator God.A spermatozoon is not the man it came from .It was born/begotten from the man.When it goes through the process of conception then it can become a man but it still is not “the man” it came from.

Yahoshua is a man however Yahoshua is not the creator God which is the basis of Christian theology you are espousing. It is part of the false construct of a “trinity” of three persons that are “one being”.

The closest this “true relationship” can be identified is with simple math of the recursive pattern of the Fibonacci number(Fn) sequence .To sum the Fibonacci numbers 2 numbers in a sequence(ex...0,1,2,3,4,5,6 etc etc) are added to sum a 3rd new Fn number.

The “first fruit” Fibonacci sequence starts with 0,1
Fn0=0
Fn1=1

Fn0+Fn1=Fn2
0+1=1
Fn2=1

This is the equation of “first fruits creation”.Paul calls Yahoshua the first born of creation.To continue the creation “ equation” sequence.
Fn1+Fn2=Fn3
1+1=2
Fn3=2

etc etc....
Fn=0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,...etc,etc to infinity

John said Yahoshua is the “word”(which Yahoshua called the seed) of the creator God and all thing are made/formed through the word/seed.The simplicity and eloquence of the Fibonacci number sequence exemplifies how things are made.

Even though in the ordinal number sequence 1 is followed by 2 in the creation equation the number sequence is Fn=1, Fn2=1, Fn3=2, Fn4=3, Fn5=5, etc etc…

Fn 1 and Fn2 are two different numbers (Fn) and the same ordinal number ..simultaneously…however Fn2 is not “before” or “greater” than Fn1.Fn2 is the seed born of Fn0+Fn1…it is the only and 1st begotten of Fn1(the father).That is the basis of the son and fathers relationship.It is not religious,spiritual or mystic.

The reality is the further you move away from reason(the basis of math) and into belief (religious rhetoric) and spiritual mysticism the further you are from the truth.The creation of everything comes from this one simple equation using the math of the creator God.The creator God has chosen to not reveal the details of how this creation is enacted because it is impossible to understand however, the creator God did give man the ability to reason and to know math is the basis of all reasoning.

This reasoning is the process of entering into the “kingdom of your heavens” .The heavens is a persons mind where they live.A kingdom is a realm of existence of ruled by the “power” of authority (the creator God)The kingdom of your heavens is not a place somewhere out there or a mystical ascension experience.It is your mind being ruled by the knowledge of truth and communion with the creator God.

The basis of truth is the language of math that has no variance or shifting of shadows of doubt.It is not about “knowing” the numbers it is about knowing and experiencing what the numbers mean..their purpose.The simplicity of the Fibonacci number sequence is the basis of all truth of knowing(not believing) the creator God.It sums mans relationship(ratio) to the creator God.

As the Fibonacci number sequence grows the two adjacent numbers have a ratio of phi (lower Fn divided by higher Fn) or Phi(higher Fn divided by lower Fn).As you can see in the beginning(which means first fruits) the ratio is 1:1

Fn1÷Fn2
1÷1=1
Fn2÷Fn1
1÷1=1

This is the the sum of what is called the holy spirit…i.e the Life of the creator God.It is not a three person in one trinity it is the 1st ratio equations sum.As this life “grows” and separates(holiness) into more cells(like a human zygote) it is moving toward a phi-Phi relationship of communing and knowing the creator God.

Fn2÷Fn3
1÷2=0.5
Fn3÷Fn2
2÷1=2
Fn3÷Fn4
2÷3=.666(the beast of mankind’s physical birth stage)
Fn4÷Fn3
3÷2=1.5
Fn4÷Fn5
3÷5=.6
Fn5÷Fn4
5÷3=1.666
…………………..etc etc….
Fn11÷Fn12
89÷144=0.618,055,555,555,555……(birth pangs)
Fn12÷Fn11
144÷89=1.617,977,528,089,888……
Fn13÷Fn12
233÷144=1.618,055,555,555,555……(born anew)
Fn12÷Fn13
144÷233=0.618,025,751,072,……
……………etc etc…
Fn36 ÷Fn37
14930352÷24157817= 0.618,033,988,749,895
Fn37÷Fn36=
24157817÷14930352=1.618,033,988,749,895……..

Mathematicians use this simple formula to calculate “general ph-Phi”(to the 15th place) because phi-Phi like Pi is an irrational number and is infinite.

√5-1÷2=phi
2.23606797749979-1=1.23606797749979
1.23606797749979÷2=0.618,033,988,749,895…….
0.618,033,988,749,895….=phi

√5+1÷2=Phi
2.23606797749979+1=3.23606797749979
3.23606797749979÷2=1.618,033,988,749,895…….
1.618,033,988,749,895…=Phi

phi-Phi is the“perfect relationship’(the golden ratio) with “1”

1÷1.618,033,988,749,895=0.618,033,988,749,895
1÷0.618,033,988,749,895=1.618,033,988,749,895

The fact is the truth of the creator God is ALL based in the true math of the creator God.What man perceives as math is only a symbol of that reality.The fact is even through the most reasonable “language” of math the creator God cannot be “known” for what they really are.A person has to experience the conception process and be born anew which means first they must die a physical death.

The fact is none have been born anew yet.Everything (and everyone) is still “in the womb/matrix of the physical universe realm.When they have fully grown their “members” to live apart from the womb they will be delivered/born anew and enter . However the process(equation) never stops growing.Yahoshua explains this using metaphor(parable of the seed 30,60,100 fold is a Fibonacci sequence…) because what this new birth and Life really is cannot be understood by the human mind anymore than an ant can understand the implications and process of General Relativity.

To reduce it to religious or mystic rhetoric of “words(babel) is futile.Man can never know the creator God or true reality through ANY form of religion.The only thing the creator God has given man the capability to perceive of themselves is through the reason of math.The scriptures are only a testimony that testifies of that truth of reason.The scriptures are not the “word of the creator God”.The symbols of math “reveal” the word/seed.Yahoshua the Son of God a son of man(Adam)

a reply to: Rex282
This thread is about Jesus being a man (and what the standard creeds say about this).
His relation to the Creator God can be discussed elsewhere, and last week's "The Word became flesh" thread would be one place to start.

a reply to: DISRAELI
Okay, thanks for letting me know.

Also, in the future, it would be helpful if you were clearer about your policy and your expectations for what is on topic and what is not. I just re-read the opening post and it is not clear to me at all that talking about mysticism in terms of Jesus' humanity was off limits.

I still don't know how one can believe that some actual physical elemental aspect of Jesus actually is alive and well in the spirit worlds. Elements just don't work that way. Without a spiritual explanation, a physically based resurrection presumption just is not acceptable to many people with even the slightest scientific background.

Now I know you said that Jesus' full humanity was not the same as his physical body appears on earth, but from your op:

"Yet the Creed also goes on to affirm the full humanity of Christ. “Perfect”, in this context, means “complete”. He is human in every essential respect, there is nothing missing."

So if that is the case, then the physical body must be assumed as having resurrected and ascended to heaven. This just brings up a whole lot of questions - like does Jesus still have to eat food? If not, then the physical is not fully human in that respect. And on and on the questions go...

Really, the explanation that Jesus' Ascended Spirit Body, as the Divine White five-pointed Star that was symbolized as the Morning Star in the Bible, is a much more acceptable explanation. The 5 pointed star is also the shape of the human body, so that fits too. It is also the gateway in mystical traditions to the Divine Light Above, the God-Unity, where rebirth occurs - so this explanation also fits with the Bible passages.

This is far easier to consider as the truth of the resurrection than somehow the physical body of Jesus floated up to the heavens behind some cloud and disappeared. That is mythology that the Church needed to create because they could only explain things in physical exoteric terms.

The esoteric aspect was not only not understood, but intentionally driven out for a variety of reasons.

Anyway, I would certainly be interested in what the various groups after Jesus' life said to explain these basic questions of what his full humanity actually comprises.

Otherwise, this physical body resurrection story appears to be just more of the Paul revision that one must believe in order to be saved. Too bad for Christianity - Jesus' esoteric Teachings were a beautiful thing he gifted the world with.

Hopefully that can be resurrected!

originally posted by: bb23108
Also, in the future, it would be helpful if you were clearer about your policy and your expectations for what is on topic and what is not. I just re-read the opening post and it is not clear to me at all that talking about mysticism in terms of Jesus' humanity was off limits.

I still think that the content of the opening post should normally be enough.
It would be useful to remember, also, what I remarked to you a couple of times; that theories not drawn from the New Testament may be out of place in a discussion of Christian theology.

I still don't know how one can believe that some actual physical elemental aspect of Jesus actually is alive and well in the spirit worlds. Elements just don't work that way. Without a spiritual explanation, a physically based resurrection presumption just is not acceptable to many people with even the slightest scientific background.

I don't know exactly how it would work, but my main guide here is what Paul says about the resurrected body in general.
Using the metaphor of the seed being sown in the earth and rising up again;
"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is imperishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians ch15 vv42-44).
The translations "physical" and "spiritual" may be misleading. In the Greek they are PSYCHIKOS and PNEUMATIKOS, that is "governed by" the soul and the Spirit respectively.
The implication is that the resurrected body of Jesus was "different" in the same way.

As for eating, an episode in John's gospel shows him to be physically capable of taking food and eating it, but he would not NEED physical food for nourishment. John frequently says that the Son has life "in himself" (a gift given to him from God), and that we too would have life from God through him. That is the meaning of the image at the end of Revelation where the "tree of life" is made available again.

Does having this new kind of body make him different from humanity? No, because if Paul is right we catch up with him in that respect in our own resurrection. Hebrews calls him a "pioneer", going ahead of the rest of us and opening up the way.

Your own explanatory paragraph starts bringing in non-Biblical stuff again, so I'm not concerned with that.
There are accounts of the resurrected Jesus in all four gospels.

Dis, I've suddenly come to think of y o u as a brother. God bless.

👣

a reply to: BlueMule
I think you told me that in your previous incarnation.
No, I'm still not going to be enticed into the esoteric experience.

a reply to: DISRAELI

That's ok, bro. 😄

👣

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The translations "physical" and "spiritual" may be misleading. In the Greek they are PSYCHIKOS and PNEUMATIKOS, that is "governed by" the soul and the Spirit respectively.
The implication is that the resurrected body of Jesus was "different" in the same way.

Interesting and thank you. It is also the case that "pneuma" means "breath-energy" - which, in esoteric prayer, the practitioner breathes the Divine Spirit, and when most effectively engaged, is absorbed in unity with the Spirit. In fact, in John 17, Jesus is engaged in prayer for his followers "that they may be one as we are one — I in them and you in me — so that they may be brought to complete unity."

In case you are interested, this kind of praying (breathing the Spirit) has been associated with absorption in unity with the Light Above - the domain of spiritual rebirth in which it is seen that unity is the case, even in this physical world.

So there is something we agree on here about Jesus' resurrected body - but that is beyond the point of being physically human.

You do know that you are resorting to esotericism to explain this, right?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Does having this new kind of body make him different from humanity? No, because if Paul is right we catch up with him in that respect in our own resurrection. Hebrews calls him a "pioneer", going ahead of the rest of us and opening up the way.

Given Paul revised really fundamental messages of Jesus, and never was a personal disciple of his, I wouldn't count on Paul being right. He had too many other agendas going - like getting the Christian church to grow very rapidly, etc. Paul sure came up with some great sales pitches! Step right up! Just believe in Jesus and you will be saved down the line!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but no one hurt Jesus' core teachings more than Paul, in my opinion.

originally posted by: intrptr

There is only one You. Thank god I don't think like you.

But since you brought that up, its also historical for people to claim we are all one also as a means to control them. If we are all one then we have to do what the "God Head" says, right? And that lol, is determined by men at the top of the religious hierarchy.

Thats also the road to ruin. Remove individual identity, get everyone indoctrinated to the common new order then point them all in one direction.

You realize thats what they do in military boot camp?

All of what you say is true if people only speak about being non-separate from God and others, and perhaps believe it in some kind of conceptual way, but do not actually recognize the truth of it.

However, when one actually recognizes the prior unity that pervades ALL conditions, and lives by this principle, this very reality of unity begins to grow one's discrimination, intelligence, feeling, intuition, cognitive capacities, love, etc.

In other words, one's bs detector is constantly getting refined!

So this actual recognition is by no means going to make someone naive and undiscriminating. This unity is our actual reality pervading all! Hooking up with reality is the most intelligent thing one can do.

Also, it is not a matter of removing one's individual identity - what is that other than us feeling associated with a particular body-mind? There is no inner entity-identity that even exists, it is an illusion. But that is another thread, as is actually the topic in this reply given it is off-topic. I did not see your post initially so I wanted to respond to you anyway.

a reply to: bb23108

In other words, one's bs detector is constantly getting refined!

I hope so. Five individual fingers are individual until they all pull together to climb, write, swing a hammer, play the piano, make a fist.

But still five fingers.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Another problem I have with the death, physical resurrection, and physical ascension of Jesus, is the official view of what Jesus' sacrifice represents.

Jesus was clearly against the common practice of the sacrificial killing of animals as a means of getting prayerful requests to God fulfilled.

And yet, Christianity makes much of Jesus' blood sacrifice - that he died for everyone's sins and their salvation. Basically, because Jesus was killed, the Church had to take it into account and make much of it.

So a central tenet of Christianity is their Master's blood sacrifice was necessary, even though Jesus was against all blood sacrifices!

Again, this points to little to no understanding of Jesus' esoteric work with the Spirit - that one can contact the Spirit directly both in life and above the body-mind - you do not need this contact to be mediated by the blood (life force) of some creature. True and effective prayer is to breathe and commune with the Spirit (Pneuma) directly.

Also, the argument that comes up relative to the resurrection and ascension of the physical body of Jesus is - well then, where did the body go? Jesus' physical body was taken away by his close followers and they handled him sacredly. Why would they let non-followers know of where their Master's body was if there was such dissent going on about him and his teachings? They also rightfully feared for their lives!

Plus, as the official exoteric church became more and more firmly based in the physical resurrection, physical ascension, and salvation revisions, the esoteric aspects of Jesus' teachings were more and more squashed and his physical body was definitely not wanting to be found by the official church.

So this huge exoteric revision by the official church was founded on the necessity for blood sacrifice even though Jesus was clearly against that! Doesn't that kind of clue us in that Paul had a very different agenda than Jesus' actual mission? That "official" Christianity was not founded on what Jesus actually taught?

a reply to: DISRAELI

It never fails, no matter how long I am gone and come back, there is always a post by you that has substance and written with great care and character.

Jesus is both divine and human. It was never so clearly shown as in the night He was arrested. At the Passover Seder, as they were passing the third cup (where we get our Communion), He said "I will pass this cup and drink it new with you in heaven" then as He went out to pray, asked the Father to pass the cup "but nevertheless, not my will, but thy will be done".

At that moment when he passed the cup and didn't drink with His disciples, he was passing the cup of His divinity to take on humanity so fully because it was in His humanity that He cried out "Eli, eli lamasabachthani". Had He drank the cup with the disciples then He could not drink it new in heaven, He could not be obedient. And He could not have gone to the cross in that moment, but as one cup was passed, the other wasn't.

He had the power to lay His life down because He had the power to take it up again. That is what He said to Pilate. "You have no authority to take my life". That cup could not be passed. So in His divine nature, His humanity had to go to the cross.

Fully God and fully man, at the same time. Not half, not a quarter, but both at the same time. And that's the great mystery and work that man cannot do and never could do because man is fully humanity.

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: DISRAELI

Jesus was clearly against the common practice of the sacrificial killing of animals as a means of getting prayerful requests to God fulfilled.

No, that is not correct. Jesus was against the endless sacrifices and selling of sacrifices without knowing or understanding or even caring about what the sacrifice was for. Jesus said "not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law until all these things are fulfilled". Sacrifice of animals was under the law, but as He became the sacrifice for all, we no longer have to sacrifice. But yet, as we are Gentiles, we were never under the law of Moses, so sacrifice was for us also. His own sacrifice of Himself was sufficient for us, because it is eternal.

And getting prayerful requests fulfilled? Again, Micah teaches that sacrifice without care is worthless, but that God still listens and answers. He answered Hannah when she prayed for a child, she got Samuel. It's about the heart and the willingness to have faith in God.

So a central tenet of Christianity is their Master's blood sacrifice was necessary, even though Jesus was against all blood sacrifices!

No, Jesus was not against it. Where did you come up with that idea?

Again, this points to little to no understanding of Jesus' esoteric work with the Spirit - that one can contact the Spirit directly both in life and above the body-mind - you do not need this contact to be mediated by the blood (life force) of some creature. True and effective prayer is to breathe and commune with the Spirit (Pneuma) directly.

Without sacrifice, there is no remission of sin. Jesus is the sacrifice, therefore He is the remission of sin. There is no esoteric work, Jesus was obedient to the law and the Father, unto death. He did that for you to bring you back into fellowship. To say that Jesus taught against sacrifice, you will have to actually show the verses.

He did say "My father's house shall be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves". Think about that if Paul says "Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost?" If the temple of God is in you, but through your own buying and selling within yourself, to give yourself over to whatever ideas you may think will benefit you, you make it a den of your own thievery, because Jesus said "No man comes to the Father but by Me and if he try to go up any other way he is the same as a thief and a robber". When you sacrifice the fellowship for lust or what you think is going up to God, you are really sacrificing your own self and you are a thief and a robber.

Also, the argument that comes up relative to the resurrection and ascension of the physical body of Jesus is - well then, where did the body go? Jesus' physical body was taken away by his close followers and they handled him sacredly. Why would they let non-followers know of where their Master's body was if there was such dissent going on about him and his teachings? They also rightfully feared for their lives!

He was crucified by the Romans, they only allowed the disciples to take His body according to the law of Moses, that He had to be buried with 24 hours, but that it was a Passover on the Sabbath, according to the law of Moses, they could not do anything with it until the Sabbath was over. Remember, it was the women who went to prepare His body, but the three days was because it was the Sabbath on the Passover, meaning that no one could do it until the time was proper, because they were all Orthodox Jews. They were all at His mother's house...because....they were sitting shiva, in other words, according to the law of Moses and tradition, they were mourning. It's like people don't know about Judaism.

Plus, as the official exoteric church became more and more firmly based in the physical resurrection, physical ascension, and salvation revisions, the esoteric aspects of Jesus' teachings were more and more squashed and his physical body was definitely not wanting to be found by the official church.

The teaching came from the third day. Not years later. Even the Sanhedrin at the time acknowledges this. Have you ever read the Sanhedrin records? It's like Judaism never existed either before the First Century.

So this huge exoteric revision by the official church was founded on the necessity for blood sacrifice even though Jesus was clearly against that! Doesn't that kind of clue us in that Paul had a very different agenda than Jesus' actual mission? That "official" Christianity was not founded on what Jesus actually taught?

Again, wrong. Please learn about Christianity before trying to debunk it because you had some serious straw men.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: bb23108

In other words, one's bs detector is constantly getting refined!

I hope so. Five individual fingers are individual until they all pull together to climb, write, swing a hammer, play the piano, make a fist.

But still five fingers.

You know, the funny things I think about when it comes to Paul teaching that we are one body...someone has to be the unpleasant parts of the body, even the stinky armpits or other various things.

I think sometimes people perceive me as one of those.

a reply to: WarminIndy

But you would gladly be one of Jesus 'stinky' parts, right?

Even Jesus' poo stank. He was just a man.

The message, not the man.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

No, Jesus was not against it. Where did you come up with that idea?

Jesus was continuing the work that prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah did relative to trying to stop the blood sacrifice of animals.

The first three gospels about the driving of the those selling animals for sacrifice from the Temple, all mention the same thing.

"When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)

"Jesus entered the Temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 'It is written,' he said to them, 'My house will be called a house of prayer but you are making it a den of robbers.'" (Matthew21:12-13)

Mark also wrote that Jesus accused them of making God's house into a "den of robbers." It should be noted that when Jesus stated this, he was quoting Jeremiah (7:11):

"Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD."

In the time of both Jeremiah and Jesus, a robber was someone who was violent and killed - unlike a thief who simply stole.

Both Jesus and Jeremiah were condemning the violence of blood sacrifices, not theft by the temple moneychangers like thieves - the latter being the often assumed interpretation of that word "robbers".

Mark even notes that a plot to kill Jesus for trying to eliminate this very profitable system of blood sacrifice:

"The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching." (Mark 11:18)

The priests were plotting his death and the people were amazed because Jesus was going against the very established tradition of blood sacrifice, and a profitable livelihood for many in charge.

And lo and behold, a few days later Jesus was killed!

Jesus very much wanted it known that God did not want his creatures killed - that blood sacrifices were unnecessary.

So it was decided to incorporate Jesus' death as the ultimate blood sacrifice, and thus this basis for exoteric "official" Christianity was quite contrary to what Jesus actually taught.

As stated before, this was to make the Christian religion grow rapidly by snuffing out the real in life daily demands and also the esoterism Jesus offered, replacing his teachings with an easy believer's approach to Jesus' sacrifice and their guarantee of Salvation when they died, because of Jesus' blood sacrifice.

Like Disraeli, it sounds like you don't presume any esotericism exists in the Bible, and this tells me you clearly don't understand a lot of what Jesus was actually teaching. You would do well then to be more cautious and less judgmental with your comments about who is ignorant of what Jesus actually taught.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: WarminIndy


Like Disraeli, it sounds like you don't presume any esotericism exists in the Bible, and this tells me you clearly don't understand a lot of what Jesus was actually teaching. You would do well then to be more cautious and less judgmental with your comments about who is ignorant of what Jesus actually taught.

Esoteric might be fine, but if leads you away from truth and you have no criteria to judge whether or not it is true, then how do you know it is truth?

What you find as esoteric in His teaching is not that esoteric. But if you want to assign symbolism and numerology to the Bible, why do you stick with Jesus' words? It's not like you have any actual living faith in Jesus Christ, only a message that you haven't been able to validate outside of esoteric hogwash.


I could give you the entire esoteric meaning in The Gettysburg Address, does that mean that Abraham Lincoln was broadcasting a message for only a few people to understand?

Jesus came for ALL, Jesus taught ALL, and He taught according to their ability to understand and receive it. It is all in ability to understand a word or phrase, idiom, axiom, common phrase or whatever. I can say to you "make hay while the sun shines". Does that mean the average city dweller is going to know how to?

Make hay while the sun shines, strike while the iron is hot, shuffle off to Buffalo, smoke 'em if you got 'em. He teaches according to our cultural understandings, our cognitive abilities and how educated we are. That's why he spoke in parables to the common people, so they who never studied in schul would understand according to their professions.

For sheep herders, He spoke as a shepherd. For architects, He spoke out building houses. For agriculturalists, He spoke about growing grapes, olives and figs. There is nothing esoteric, it's just that perhaps some people try to find meaning in each and every song, and some words they can call their own.

I am a writer, I find that Jesus taught according to how my mind works to understand. Nothing esoteric, and forcing esoteric where it isn't, that's just intellectual dishonesty.

Jesus was fully divine and fully human.