Jesus is a man

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Yes, but you wandered away from the subject of the ascended Jesus.
You started talking about alleged mystical experiences of the disciples, which you chose to call "ascent"; THAT was what I described as "not found in the New Testament" and "not relevant to Christian theology".
Do try and keep track of what you are saying in this conversation.

I just showed you where Jesus' instructions to his disciples about ascent is referenced in the Bible, but you did not respond to my post (in response back to you) about what being "born from above" means.

Jesus taught the disciples how to ascend to the Spirit Light above from where they were re-born. If that instruction showed them how to relate to the ascended body of Jesus after his death, how can you say it is not relevant?

Again, this is an instance, in my opinion, of many Christians not understanding the esoteric messages by Jesus in the Bible - that Jesus was an actual spiritual master who transmitted tangible Blessing force to his disciples, lifting them up spiritually (not physically) to the Spirit-Light Above. This was their rebirth and what would keep them forever in communion with God through Jesus' ascended Body, even while they lived in this world.

When considering in this manner, it also makes sense of the resurrection.

originally posted by: bb23108
I just showed you where Jesus' instructions to his disciples about ascent is referenced in the Bible, but you did not respond to my post (in response back to you) about what being "born from above" means.

I responded by pointing out that I would be discussing the passage in a future thread.
The fact that the power of the Holy Spirit comes "from above" helps to explain the meaning, but the forthcoming thread is the place where I will be discussing it.

Jesus taught the disciples how to ascend to the Spirit Light above from where they were re-born. If that instruction showed them how to relate to the ascended body of Jesus after his death, how can you say it is not relevant?

It is not relevant because nothing in the New Testament says it happened.
The Spirit descends to us, not the other way round.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Moon pie is a reference to being full of fantasy that has no basis in reality. The reality is men use religion and God to exert control and start wars. Believers follow on like lemmings because "God" ( men, really) demands it.

Thats why I said making men into gods is dangerous.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Itisnowagain
Yes, but he did not say that EVERYBODY and the Father are one.
The whole point of such remarks is that he is identifying himself as a unique authority.

I am not at all questioning Jesus' uniqueness, but he did say this:

"so that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me."

John 17:21

a reply to: bb23108
But our connection with God, in that passage and elsewhere in John's gospel depends on the uniqeness of his connection with the Son.
The Son, and only the Son, is "one with the Father".
The followers of Christ are "one" with the Son.
And by that means, the followers of Christ have a mediated connection, "at second hand" as it were, with the Father.

Now it is time to get back on topic.
The topic of this thread is the full humanity of Jesus.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
It is not relevant because nothing in the New Testament says it happened.
The Spirit descends to us, not the other way round.

Oh, now you have jumped to "us". I am not debating that the Spirit can and does descend to us, we were talking about what Jesus taught his disciples.

And so my unanswered questions of you once again:

If one is born from above, it implies you were there being born, right?

If you were born from your mother's womb, you were there, right?

If Jesus meant to say "born from above" means something different from the obvious meaning I am referring to, he would have said something like one must be born by being Blessed from above - not by being born from above.

You seemed to be revising things to fit your beliefs, my friend.

a reply to: bb23108
As I keep telling you, that passage is the topic of a forthcoming thread, and that is where I will debate what it means.
The topic of this thread is the full humanity of Jesus.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
But our connection with God, in that passage and elsewhere in John's gospel depends on the uniqeness of his connection with the Son.
The Son, and only the Son, is "one with the Father".
The followers of Christ are "one" with the Son.
And by that means, the followers of Christ have a mediated connection, "at second hand" as it were, with the Father.

Now it is time to get back on topic.
The topic of this thread is the full humanity of Jesus.

But, again, Jesus said "may they also be one in us". He did not say, may they also be one in me.

He is not assuming others are separate from God, but I do agree with you that Jesus provided his disciples the means to directly commune with God through him. They felt Jesus' Divinity, so of course they responded to him. They would be perfectly fine with that. And so Jesus instructed them how to commune with God through him, both when present in his physical company, and also when not.

After Jesus' death, the disciples related to him through his ascended spirit-body, and recognized their unity with the Divine through that means. And yes, the descent of the Holy Spirit was also a means for their communion in their daily lives, as was their inward mystical ascent a means for this spiritual communion Above the gross physical body.

How is this conversation not about Jesus' humanity? We are discussing his physical life and his continued appearance after his physical death. Do you want to further define his humanity so it is clear where I am deviating from the topic?

originally posted by: bb23108
How is this conversation not about Jesus' humanity? We are discussing his physical life and his continued appearance after his physical death. Do you want to further define his humanity so it is clear where I am deviating from the topic?

You deviated from the topic when you stopped talking about his physical life, and started talking about the disciples "ascending".
That is exactly the same answer I gave you the last time you asked that disingenuous question.
I also said that those theories were not relevant to Christian theology because they were not found in the New Testament.

originally posted by: intrptr
Thats why I said making men into gods is dangerous.

Definitely, and if people really understood the meaning of their not being separate from God, they would also understand that this means, they do NOT exist in any kind of independent fashion whatsoever - truly, they do not exist as a separate ego-I entity upon such utter realization. Until then, we are best off being humbled by our obvious tiny speck of existence here.

Unfortunately, people hear some new age teaching that says we are all one, all gods, etc., and they like that, and may even have some kind of insight into non-duality, and zowie, now I'm enlightened! Then all the talking nonsense begins and people become even more adolescent and independent then they were beforehand! Hardly god-like!

Sorry, I guess I should be in the rant section. Hey wait, you started this!

originally posted by: DISRAELI
You deviated from the topic when you stopped talking about his physical life, and started talking about the disciples "ascending".
That is exactly the same answer I gave you the last time you asked that disingenuous question.
I also said that those theories were not relevant to Christian theology because they were not found in the New Testament.

But Jesus instructed his disciples in these matters during his physical life. But I guess I will have to wait until your next thread to discuss that aspect of it. I am sorry you think my questions are not relevant, even dishonest. I don't get that.

I also mentioned what I found in the Bible that I believe is about Jesus' continued work with disciples after his death, but you don't agree with that either. So how do you describe Jesus' actual full humanity right after his death and now?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: bb23108
As I keep telling you, that passage is the topic of a forthcoming thread, and that is where I will debate what it means.
The topic of this thread is the full humanity of Jesus.

If he achieved a state of being that other humans can't, he was more than human. Or everyone else is less than human. Either way, he wasn't the same as us.

On the other hand, if he achieved a state of being that everyone has the potential of reaching, then he was a mystic and he joins the ranks of other God-realized mystics from every nation, religion, and era.

That thought scares orthodox thinkers, because their power depends on the idea that Jesus was unique.

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originally posted by: BlueMuleOn the other hand, if he achieved a state of being that everyone has the potential of reaching, then he was a mystic and he joins the ranks of other God-realized mystics from every nation, religion, and era.

That thought scares orthodox thinkers, because their power depends on the idea that Jesus was unique.

👣

Actually Jesus was very unique - very few mystics are authentic spiritual masters. And even rarer than that, few spiritual masters, are masters who can intentionally transmit Spirit Blessing to their disciples. Jesus was one such rare being.

Plus Jesus' teachings, especially the two great commandments, are brilliant in terms of containing both the necessary exoteric instructions for preparing the whole body-mind in conformity to the Divine for receiving Spirit Blessing, and also esoteric instructions relative to our native non-separation from the Divine.

originally posted by: bb23108
I also mentioned what I found in the Bible that I believe is about Jesus' continued work with disciples after his death, but you don't agree with that either. So how do you describe Jesus' actual full humanity right after his death and now?

I answered the point about "continuing work" in an earlier post;

According to the teaching in John's gospel, the guidance of Jesus now comes through the Holy Spirit.
"I will send you the Counsellor... When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth" (John ch16 v13)

The accounts of the resurrection appearances show that his risen body was tangible, and recognisable, and yet different from his original body in a number of ways.
I observed before that this was in accordance with Paul's teaching, that the resurrected body would be a different kind of body.
In another previous post, which I can track down and paste, I gave my thoughts on his resurrected body and the ascension; viz. that we have no reason to think that he became "detached" from the resurrected body again, which implies that he took it with him. Further than that, we cannot know in detail.

originally posted by: bb23108

Actually Jesus was very unique - very few mystics are authentic spiritual masters. And even rarer than that, few spiritual masters, are masters who can intentionally transmit Spirit Blessing to their disciples. Jesus was one such rare being.

One can't be one-of-a-kind and part of a very few at the same time.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Plus Jesus' teachings, especially the two great commandments, are brilliant in terms of containing both the necessary exoteric instructions for preparing the whole body-mind in conformity to the Divine for receiving Spirit Blessing, and also esoteric instructions relative to our native non-separation from the Divine.

Yes he was brilliant. Which commandments are you referring to, exactly?

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originally posted by: BlueMule
If he achieved a state of being that other humans can't, he was more than human. Or everyone else is less than human. Either way, he wasn't the same as us.

Christian theology presents Christ as a union of God and man.
In other words, Jesus was fully human, but originating from and attached to something more than human.
In his human aspect, then, he was the same as us.
As for being attached to the Father, the New Testament teaching is that we do not achieve that independently, but it becomes possible through the agency of Christ.
Christ, being fully human, is attached to us.
Christ, being fully God, is attached to the Father.
And by that means we are indirectly attached to the Father.

a reply to: DISRAELI
I read all your posts so no need to dig them up (at least for me), unless they were in a different thread.

You keep reminding us to discuss only Jesus' full humanity, but not about his instructions to his disciples about being born again, and then you say at the end of your last post, "Further than that, we cannot know in detail."

So what's a person to do?

a reply to: bb23108
You could try going back to the opening post and agreeing or disagreeing with what it contains.
I am not forcing you to do anything; I'm just refusing to get involved myself in mystical wanderings.

originally posted by: BlueMule
Yes he was brilliant. Which commandments are you referring to, exactly?

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His two great commandments to love God with the whole body-mind, being, and heart, and one's neighbor as oneself. They inherently contain tremendous instruction, both esoteric and exoteric.

I assume you know I never argued that Jesus was the only great spiritual master to have ever appeared. I just wish more Christians would surrender to their spiritual master in the way he taught via his two great commandments - based on real daily communion with him; not just some belief in him for the sake of their eventual salvation. Then Christianity could completely change for the better.

a reply to: DISRAELI

That's the kind of primitive theology one cooks up when one is both ignorant of how mysticism works, and interested in building an empire.

It's just theological gymnastics. If you are human but have an aspect of your being that is not human, then you are more than human. You're a symbiont.

All mystics are symbionts, and all humans have the seed of mysticism in them.

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