Germany does own poll, 75% crimeans wanted Russia

a reply to: DJW001

Does it matter what the reason is for wanting to be a part of Russia? It's almost as if you are implying that their wishes are not valid because the Crimeans only want it for economic reasons.

originally posted by: BooyaShaka
a reply to: DJW001

Does it matter what the reason is for wanting to be a part of Russia? It's almost as if you are implying that their wishes are not valid because the Crimeans only want it for economic reasons.

No, I am explicitly stating that they have no such wishes. If you asked them a year ago if they wanted to stay part of Ukraine, they would have said "Sure, why not?" Former Soviets have no concept of democratic government. To them, an election is simply an opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty by checking the proper box on a piece of paper.

Wow, so you are saying they are not mentally capable enough to make those choices, and that therefore, their wishes are not valid?

a reply to: Dimithae

Seriously?

A telephone poll conducted by a German firm among Crimeans in January found that over 80 percent of respondents were happy to be newly-minted Russians.

First of all, the German company only conducted telephone surveys of 800 people and came to this conclusion.
Second, it's been conducted after the invasion and occupation of Crimea, in what is known to be a climate of political repression, even the surveying group themselves admit that this was flawed because it's not safe to carry out such a survey with all the FSB and Russian government in control. The people will be feeling the same pressure to tow the party line.
Thirdly, even if this were the case and there was an accurate representation of public opinion before the invasion and annexation of Crimea, IT IS NOT RUSSIAN LAND.

Regardless of what the people might or might not have wanted within Crimea itself before the invasion, you cannot simply go in and steal a chunk of another country.

It would be up to the people of Crimea to decide their own fate, through a democratic process. There have been plenty of examples of regions separating from their nation under self determination, and they are never valid when done by force, with an invasion, by another country claiming it as its own.

This is what people are not getting - Crimea does not belong to Russia. If the people there wanted to break away from Ukraine and become Russian, they are to do so through democratic and peaceful means without a foreign army invading and taking it.

originally posted by: BooyaShaka
Wow, so you are saying they are not mentally capable enough to make those choices, and that therefore, their wishes are not valid?

No, I am saying that they have learned to be very agreeable people; the entire peninsula is in the tourist trade.

a reply to: DJW001

So what? What is your point? Would you have said the same if they chose to be Ukranian?

You are reaching a bit here if you ask me.

originally posted by: BooyaShaka
a reply to: DJW001

So what? What is your point? Would you have said the same if they chose to be Ukranian?

You are reaching a bit here if you ask me.

That depends on whether or not the person who appoints their governor is appointing him from Moscow or Kyiv, get it?

a reply to: DJW001

No, I don't actually. What do you mean?

originally posted by: BooyaShaka
a reply to: DJW001

No, I don't actually. What do you mean?

What is so hard to understand? If you have never had any say in government, it does not matter to you what that government chooses to call itself. If it says you're Russian, you're Russian. If it says you're Ukrainian, you're Ukrainian. Just so long as you have bread in your belly.

originally posted by: BooyaShaka
a reply to: DJW001

No, I don't actually. What do you mean?

HE means all phone calls are monitored for LOYALTY to RUSSIA now. The KGB did the very same thing and the agency that putin has put in charge does the same job to ensure loyalty. Of course they said we love russia. ask a russian that question during the cold war you would get the same answer.

a reply to: DJW001

If it says you're Russian, you're Russian. If it says you're Ukrainian, you're Ukrainian. Just so long as you have bread in your belly.

Yes, so again, what is your point. Does it make their wishes less valid? You are trying invalidate these results.

a reply to: yuppa

HE means all phone calls are monitored for LOYALTY to RUSSIA now.

That was obviously not what he meant.

a reply to: Rocker2013

First of all, the German company only conducted telephone surveys of 800 people and came to this conclusion.

First of all,phone surveys are done all the time here with a lot less people than 800 to get results. 800 is a pretty high number,and doing this by phone is a perfectly acceptable way.

Second, it's been conducted after the invasion and occupation of Crimea, in what is known to be a climate of political repression, even the surveying group themselves admit that this was flawed because it's not safe to carry out such a survey with all the FSB and Russian government in control.

You should go to Crimea yourself before saying anything about repression. Those videos I have watched of others say they were pleasantly surprised by the fact that everyone there was happy,and no where did they see any soldiers at all.The people all said they felt safe and secure,and none said they felt bullied or intimidated.

Regardless of what the people might or might not have wanted within Crimea itself before the invasion,

It would be up to the people of Crimea to decide their own fate, through a democratic process.

Um okay,so is it up to them or not? They did it democratically.They voted. Thats the way you do it. Where there soldiers there? Yes they had to be to make sure that Ukraine's soldiers didn't interrupt it.The soldiers were not telling the people HOW to vote,just letting them vote safely. Considering that Right Sector was making threats at the time,people would not have felt safe.

This is probably the most honest msm article you will see,even with its West is great slant:

time.com...

Crimea was not taken by force,invasion,or anything else,I know it is hard for people to accept,but as in the above linked article, Crimeans WANTED to be part of Russia,they had voted several times over the years to rejoin Russia.

As far as 'stealing' a chunk of another country, Russia built their port there in 1783,it has been Russia's port since then. When Ukraine was ruling over Crimea,Russia 'rented' that port from them. Russia built that port and has always used it. They knew that once Yanukovych was gone that port would be gone and they have to have it.

And in fact they were right.It seems that the US government already had plans for that port,I posted what I found in another post here:www.abovetopsecret.com....

And here is the documents from the US government,and look at the dates:www.fbo.gov...

So there is a lot more to this than the msm is saying. If you really want the truth,you are gonna have to dig for it.

Also I guess the Crimeans did'nt want to have law like this:youtu.be...

originally posted by: BooyaShaka
a reply to: yuppa

HE means all phone calls are monitored for LOYALTY to RUSSIA now.

That was obviously not what he meant.

Actually, that is what I am implying. Crimean were given a choice of being prisoners of Kyiv or prisoners of Moscow. There were more Russian troops there than Ukrainian troops, so guess who won?

I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone brought up the old Soviet policy of ethnic colonization that was used to subdue territories during the USSR? Ukraine did not want to be Soviet. So to subdue them, the Russian policy was first to ethnically colonize Ukraine. Then they made it a policy that all food from the Ukraine was illegal for ethnic Ukrainians to eat.

It was a combination of both breeding them out and starving them out. They also brought in displaced Tatars from other parts of the Soviet Union too.

So it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of the citizens around Crimea still consider themselves Russian. It's not like they were ever integrated well with the native Ukrainians and their is a history of bad blood there.

a reply to: DJW001

You gave this is as an answer,

If you have never had any say in government, it does not matter to you what that government chooses to call itself. If it says you're Russian, you're Russian. If it says you're Ukrainian, you're Ukrainian. Just so long as you have bread in your belly.

You seem to keep changing the goalposts. There you were implying economical reasons again.

And he said this,

HE means all phone calls are monitored for LOYALTY to RUSSIA now.

Implying that intimidation is the reason.

I guess that you will now respond by saying that you were implying both things.

So little recap, first you say these people are too dumb too vote consciously and now you are saying they were intimidated into voting for Russia.

So which one is it.

Well it seems Russia really is surely doing something in Crimea...

Most supplies come from Russia by ferry but bad weather can delay shipments for days. Many products are just not available. Regional government data showed inflation jumped 38 percent and the cost of food increased by almost a half from March through to December. Not a single Russian supermarket chain has opened in Crimea.

www.euronews.com...

So inflation jumped 38 percent, and cost of food has increased...sounds like it's going well for Crimea.

Where did I ever even imply that Crimeans are "stupid?" You are reading your own interpretation s into my posts. The Crimeans were never offered a choice to be independent, only a choice of masters. Given that the Russians are their principle source of income, and that there are Russian troops hovering over them, the locals have no problem accepting Russian rule. That's why if you ask them if they are loyal to Russia, of course they respond that they are. If things had sorted.out differently, they would be proud to be Ukrainian.

Are you one of those people who thinks that nationality is something that defines what a person is?

A reply to: BooyaShaka

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

You missed a few qoutes there.

nternational sanctions are hitting the country hard, “tougher for Crimea than Russia” contends Alexander Lebedev, a Russian investor.

For many locals the biggest worry is the spiralling cost of food. Kyiv’s refusal to recognise the border means it can’t legally export to Crimea directly.