Christian Complaint that Baker Refuses to Decorate Cake with Anti-Gay Message

Regarding the linked article in the OP...

I really think we live in a society of trolls now. Thanks internet.

a reply to: kosmicjack



Doesn't fit perfect but this is what I have been thinking about while reading this.

originally posted by: TsukiLunar
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

How dare you insinuate that I am less than 100% genuine in my hatred for gays. Did you know every time gays have sex a orphan is sent to hell? They also crap on the bible in Church all the time! They will get there do's. My loving lord JESUS WILL SMITE THEM AND DESTROY THEIR HATEFUL EVIL WAYS.

These sort of post are not helpful.

originally posted by: kosmicjack
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I really think we live in a society of trolls now. Thanks internet.

UM Yes, there are a lot on ATS today from all sides

I don't even want to post.

a reply to: kosmicjack

No. Not trolls per se. Just a lot of hjalf-informed, misinformed, and disinformed, non-thinkers who somehow have been led to believe that what think or believe is the only think to think or believe and that everyone should pay attention to them. I think there's a different word for that but it's eluding me at the moment. Something to do with ego maybe.

a reply to: Stormdancer777
Well, my implication wasn't about ATS specifically but the internet in general.

People are perfectly comfortable now to troll in real life, like the person threatening to sue the baker.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I know we've had this discussion before. Might have been a "what if", same difference.

Guess what? Answer is still the same.

I'm pretty sure you also posted a pic of the cake the gay couple eventually had for their wedding.

It was a beautiful wedding cake. It was not a "gay" wedding cake.

christians are funny, they judge, they think its theyre place too...

originally posted by: kosmicjack
a reply to: Stormdancer777
Well, my implication wasn't about ATS specifically but the internet in general.

People are perfectly comfortable now to troll in real life, like the person threatening to sue the baker.

seems like a lot of ugly comments towards specific posters more than usual, makes me want to stay invisible, why would any lurker want to dive into this mess?

We need more members not getting members chased away.

a reply to: D9Fox

Christians are not supposed to judge, however as I often notice on these topics we all are standing in judgment of each other, It makes you feel better and superior.

Having read the article and looked at this the following can be stated:

There are several ways to deal with this. The first would be to actually make the cake and call it a day. Though I find it highly questionable that the man would not leave or let them make a copy of the wordings at all. Most bakers, if you want something specific on the cake would want such there to ensure that they are going to get it right.

But beyond that, there is a way to fight this, and legal precedent for such already on the books. If you go back several years, there was a case, similar to this, that occurred in New Jersey, over a birthday cake. The bakery was willing to make a birthday cake, but found the name objectionable, carrying with it a social stigma far worse, and the parent sued in court. The parent lost the case and subsequently lost custody of all three children, as the court found such were going to cause the children more harm than good in the long run. Under that legal precedent, it could be argued that by making a cake with such horrendous statements on it, it could be argued that such would cause a bad social stigma on who ever this cake was for. After all if this is a wedding cake, then where would this cake had been delivered to, but a private event and with the intention of causing pain and suffering on a person.

The baker stated, they did not refuse him service, but were willing to provide the necessary stuff for him to complete it, as he wanted it, including the wording.

Personally I think that the baker should have done one of the following: 1) Make the cake. 2) Stall and contact an attorney and DORA. 3) Make the cake, but botch it badly, and tell him it will take another month to make, and each time it gets worse and worse and worse, till he gives up and goes away. 4) make the cake and then invite DORA, the media and members of the LGBT community there to see the cake and get his picture and tell him that he will never get the cake. That way it ends all arguments on such.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

You know what .

Never mess with the people baking your food.

I wouldn't eat it.

The guy never wanted the cake anyway.

This is stressful,

Make love not war,
peace



The mods have left the building

a reply to: Stormdancer777
I agree, I do not think he wanted it.

That leads me to ask what was the cake really for, or was it to try to turn the tables on such. The fact he kept coming back time and time again, kind of makes his entire actions suspicious in itself. Most customers when they are upset, if they leave very rarely tend to return, like that, especially after talking to the owner/manager.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
If one refuses a cake based on moral grounds, "I won't put hateful messages on my cakes," why can't another refuse on moral grounds, "I won't bake a cake for a gay wedding." Both are moral positions. Both are probably based on deep seated feelings and beliefs. Why should the government force one but not the other?

In the first case, the baker treats all customers the SAME. In other words, they won't put hateful messages on their cakes for ANYONE

In the second case, they make wedding cakes for STRAIGHT people, but not for GAY people.

It's so simple, anyone should understand.

Yet as it has been demonstrated in this thread by several posters no matter how simple they just can't understand.

They must have met a cognitive dissonance block in their head I bet its painful.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
This is an interesting twist and I must say, I saw it coming. A Christian man has asked a Colorado baker (who is known to be LGBT-friendly) to decorate a cake with an anti-gay slogan, and the baker is refusing. Therefore, the Christian is complaining, claiming his religious rights are being violated.

He must have not read his bible, as he missed

John 13:34

A new commandment I give to you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

He was just trying to turn the tables.

and make a point.

a reply to: Stormdancer777
Yeah, but here is the thing: did the baker refuse to make the cake? No. The baker was refusing to put the wording on. Was that a refusal of service, that is what the court will have to decide. And if it does go to court, the man will have to show up and show them what all he wanted on the cake fully. That should be interesting.

originally posted by: peskyhumans
Sorry but it's the same thing as forcing a Christian baker to bake a cake for a gay wedding. If you expect Christian bakers to bake your gay wedding cakes then gay bakers better be able to bake Christian cakes for Christians.

Take your hypocrisy and suck it down.

The gay couple that tried to order the cake did not try to order a gay themed cake as far as i have seen,you may correct me if this is incorrect of course. They tried to order a wedding cake (no sexually specific decorations were requested).

The religious customer in this case requested hateful speech aimed at gay people to be applied to a bible shaped cake by the baker. Which the baker denied but still offered him to make the cake itself and supply him with the tools and instructions on how he could apply his own hateful text in anyway he wishes in his own private environment.


And so, The gay couple got denied service completely just for being gay which is pure discrimination no matter which motivation lay behind it. The christian religious man was still offered his cake but the baker refused to partake in any hate speech towards anyone. Which is purely common sense to anyone that has some.

One would have to try really hard to omit these details.


Since this baker refused to produce hateful ,discriminating text to anyone, I want to ask the following:


If a man of christian religion walks into a bakery with the request for a bible shaped cake with the text written on it ""Homosexuals are Despicable Sinners!".

Would the baker have to make this cake [including the discriminatory text]?

Would you agree now for the cake to be made?



Now if a man who is lets say , a gay atheist walks into a bakery with the request for a church shaped cake with the text written on it "Christians and christian priests are despicable child rapists"

Would the baker have to make this cake [including the discriminatory text]?

Would you now agree for the cake to be made?




If you agree to only the former OR the latter then you are discriminating towards 1 group of people (lets forget that the text in and all by itself already is discriminatory and focus on the customer and the baker his/her rights)

If you have to agree to both, then one has to wonder why you have been here pushing the arguments that you had.



How christian or religious for that matter was the message that the man wanted on the bible shaped cake in the first place?
It did not sound very christian to me. Hateful , yes. Does not god and jesus love everyone? Are we not all sinners? Where was the christian or religious message that supposedly was being refused here?

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: guitarplayer

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: guitarplayer

Please, please, please try to keep up. The baker in the OP did NOT refuse to bake a cake for the Christian customer. The baker did NOT refuse service to the Christian customer. The baker does not put anti-gay messages on cakes for ANYONE, regardless of your race, religion or sexual orientation. The baker in the OP did not discriminate against anyone.

The Christian baker who refused to make a wedding cake for the gay couple actually DID refuse to bake a cake. The Christian baker was not asked to put anything "gay" on the cake. The Christian baker was simply asked to bake the same kind of wedding cake that he always bakes.

If a Muslim baker only makes Muslim-themed cakes, then it isn't discrimination to refuse to bake a Christian-themed cake, because that's NOT the kind of cake that he always bakes.

Do you think the Christian baker who only bakes Christian theme cakes can refuse service to gays and Muslims as you said the Muslim has a right to only bake Muslim theme cakes and refuse service to Christians. Why the double standard? If it is wrong to discriminate then discrimination from gays or Muslims is wrong too.

No. The Christian baker who only bakes Christian themed cakes can't refuse service to the gay who asks for a Christian themed cake. If the gay asks for a satanic themed cake, then the Christian baker who only bakes Christian themed cakes can say "I don't bake satanic themed cakes".

The Muslim who bakes only Muslim themed cakes can't refuse service to a Christian who asks for a Muslim themed cake. If a Christian wants a Christian themed cake from the Muslim baker who only bakes Muslim themed cakes, the Muslim baker has the right to say no, because that is not the type of cake he makes.

If a Christian baker makes generic, traditional wedding cakes and a gay couple asks for a generic, traditional wedding cake, then the Christian baker must sell the generic, traditional wedding cake to the gay couple, just like he would sell to the straight couple. If the Christian baker has the policy that they won't decorate a cake with a penis on top (no matter who the customer is), and a gay couple asks for a wedding cake with a penis on top, the Christian baker has the right to say no to the penis decoration.

Isn't it much simpler?

Once the content of a message is involved, it's like the baker is an artist or a ghost writer.

There is no law that compels an artist or ghost writer to write any content.

Customers have no legal claim to force a writer or artist to write anything, or produce any artwork for them.

Artists and writers absolutely can "discriminate" and choose to write whatever they want, any time.

a reply to: Jamie1
Unless you are a photographer in NM.