Christian Complaint that Baker Refuses to Decorate Cake with Anti-Gay Message

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Logarock

I am pretty sure as a vendor, the baker is not obliged to take business. Thus this twat could go find a homophobic baker.

Except that is what the other baker was sued for, and lost. He was obliged to take business.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

If a gay Jew transgender black guy with one eye was marrying his pet pig, and he wanted a picture of Mohammed reading The Vagina Monologues on the wedding cake, I bet there would be a lawsuit sooner or later.

a reply to: Jamie1

If someone breathes there will be a lawsuit given enough time in the US. Why anyone is so interested in forcing others to go against their religious beliefs is beyond me. For a group of people who keep talking about a lack of respect shown towards them, they should probably try to lead by example.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Jamie1

If someone breathes there will be a lawsuit given enough time in the US. Why anyone is so interested in forcing others to go against their religious beliefs is beyond me. For a group of people who keep talking about a lack of respect shown towards them, they should probably try to lead by example.

I'd like to know where, in any religious book, it says you can't make a cake for a gay wedding. Also, where does it say that making and selling a cake for a gay wedding means that you think gay weddings are good. If you can show me where there are any religious rules about making and selling cakes for gay weddings, I'll totally and publicly agree with you.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Logical fallacy. The Bible talks about homosexuality, it does not have to specify cakes. Homosexuality, or more precisely gay marriage, is the issue, not a cake. If someone feels baking a cake is tacit support for gay marriage then it's a matter of their faith, since their faith does deal explicitly with homosexuality.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: kaylaluv

Logical fallacy. The Bible talks about homosexuality, it does not have to specify cakes. Homosexuality, or more precisely gay marriage, is the issue, not a cake. If someone feels baking a cake is tacit support for gay marriage then it's a matter of their faith, since their faith does deal explicitly with homosexuality.

Someone "feels" baking a cake is support for gay marriage? Talk about a logical fallacy!

I could see not forcing someone to marry another person of the same gender. I could see not forcing someone to have sex with someone of the same gender. At least there are scriptures that deal with those things specifically. But there is absolutely nothing in the Bible about not doing commerce with someone who lives differently than what the scriptures say. There is nothing that says if you engage in commerce with someone, that it means you support what they do. Therefore, legally you can not use the "free exercise of religion" excuse.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Except that is what the other baker was sued for, and lost. He was obliged to take business.

It's not as black and white as that. What matters (in law) is WHY the baker refused business. In the first case, Masterpiece Bakery SAID they were refusing business because the wedding was between two gay guys. That's legal discrimination and it's against the law, and that's why he lost.

In this case, the baker refused service, NOT because of WHO the customer was (a Christian), but because of the decorations the customer wanted (the content). That is NOT against the law.

You can't say it's as simple as "it's about content" or "It's not about content". Those are meaningless statements when comparing these two cases because the first one wasn't about content and this one is.

Man Suing Colorado Bakery Is Christian Academy Cofounder

He is Bill Jack, one of the founders of Worldview Academy, Denver TV station KDVR reports. Worldview Academy is a Christian organization that holds conventions, conferences and youth camps meant to “train Christians to think and live in accord with a biblical worldview,” according to its website. www.advocate.com...

Here's another interesting article:

WATCH: Marriage Equality Backlash Has Only Just Begun

www.advocate.com...

a reply to: Annee

So this guy is teaching his ways to young Americans and sending them out into the world.
It almost seems like his goal is to do away with Christianity once and for all.

originally posted by: JessicaRabbitTx
a reply to: Annee

So this guy is teaching his ways to young Americans and sending them out into the world.
It almost seems like his goal is to do away with Christianity once and for all.

More on Bill Jack from: Republic of Gilead: Keeping an Eye on the Religious Right: republic-of-gilead.blogspot.com...

Given Jack's stance toward LGBTQ issues at CHAP, I'm not surprised that he asked a baker to make an anti-gay cake. In a CHAP 2014 workshop entitled "Counterfeit Reality", Jack spoke of same-sex marriage, incestuous marriage, man-car marriage, and pedophilia in the same breath. At the 0:28 mark, he had this to say.

NOTE: from a book: The Handmaid's Tale --- The Handmaid's Tale is set in the near future in the Republic of Gilead, a theocratic military dictatorship formed within the borders of what was formerly the United States of America.

I can just see Jesus talking to people lined up to see him.

"Dude, you ask someone to lovingly make a beautiful cake of the Good Book and then to desecrate it with horse excrement??!? Dude, you're a self-righteous bloviating donkey. Go to the end of the line and think long and hard about what you've done. Next?"

"Oh, you're the baker who refused to write that guy's words on the cake? Come sit over here, because I think you understand what I'm trying to get at with my followers."

originally posted by: Annee
NOTE: from a book: The Handmaid's Tale --- The Handmaid's Tale is set in the near future in the Republic of Gilead, a theocratic military dictatorship formed within the borders of what was formerly the United States of America.

Loved the book! But yeah, an all-too believable premise. I feel so sorry for the people who have to deal with the future of this country and I'm SO glad I didn't have children.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Annee
NOTE: from a book: The Handmaid's Tale --- The Handmaid's Tale is set in the near future in the Republic of Gilead, a theocratic military dictatorship formed within the borders of what was formerly the United States of America.

Loved the book! But yeah, an all-too believable premise. I feel so sorry for the people who have to deal with the future of this country and I'm SO glad I didn't have children.

Me too. I'm happy I'm near the end of my life.

But, I'm raising my 7 year old high functioning with some Autistic behaviors grandson. Very intelligent kid. Self taught reader at age 3. A thinker, who makes up stories with his characters about going through portals into different worlds etc.

It's hard figuring out the best way to tap into his potential and at the same time keep him well adjusted in his age group and at the same time try to predict his future world.

He is not being raised with religion. He is taught: "People are their Heart".

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

a reply to: Annee

If I put my fingertips together and form a sphere with my hands, that represents the world of my Mother. If I then move my hands apart about a foot, that represents the world of her daughters. And I hope if my sons were to do this at my age, their hands would extend out further than my sphere. I am grateful for having lived in these times.

However, like you, I look around and think, I'm glad I'm at the end of my Life. My husband thinks that the whole world is at the end of its life, so I guess that makes me the optimist! lol

The last 60 years saw many good changes:

The Triumph of Progressivism: Graduation 2013 and 1968:

Many of you soon-to-be college graduates are determined to make the world a better place. Some of you are choosing careers in public service or joining nonprofits or volunteering in your communities.

But many of you are cynical about politics. You see the system as inherently corrupt. You doubt real progress is possible. “What chance do we have against the Koch brothers and the other billionaires?” you’ve asked me. “How can we fight against Monsanto, Boeing, JP Morgan, and Bank of America? They buy elections. They run America.”

Let me remind you: Cynicism is a self-fulfilling prophesy. You have no chance if you assume you have no chance.

“But it was different when you graduated,” you say. “The sixties were a time of social progress.” You don’t know your history. When I graduated in 1968, the Vietnam War was raging. Over half a million American troops were already there. I didn’t know if I’d be drafted. A member of my class who spoke at commencement said he was heading to Canada and urged us to join him. Two months before, Martin Luther King Jr. had been assassinated. America’s cities were burning. Bobby Kennedy had just been gunned down.

George (“segregation forever”) Wallace was on his way to garnering 10 million votes and carrying five southern states. Richard Nixon was well on his way to becoming president. America was still mired in bigotry. I remember a classmate who was dating a black girl being spit on in a movie theater. The Supreme Court had only the year before struck down state laws against interracial marriage. My entire graduating class of almost 800 contained only six young black men and four Hispanics.

I remember the girlfriend of another classmate almost dying from a back-alley abortion, because safe abortions were almost impossible to get. I remember a bright young woman law school graduate in tears because no law firm would hire her because she was a woman.

I remember one of my classmates telling me in anguish that he was a homosexual, fearing he’d be discovered and his career ruined.

The environmental movement had yet not been born. Two-thirds of America’s waterways were unsafe for swimming or fishing because of industrial waste and sewage. I remember rivers so polluted they caught fire. When the Cuyahoga River went up in flames Time Magazine described it as the river that “oozes rather than flows,” in which a person “does not drown but decays.”

In those days, universal health insurance was a pipe dream. It all seemed pretty hopeless. I assumed America was going to hell. And yet, reforms did occur. America changed. The changes didn’t come easily. Every positive step was met with determined resistance. But we became better and stronger because we were determined to change.

When I graduated college I would not have believed that in my lifetime women would gain rights over their own bodies, including the legal right to have an abortion. Or women would become chief executives of major corporations, secretaries of state, contenders for the presidency. Or they’d outnumber men in college.

I would not have imagined that eleven states would allow gays and lesbians to marry, and a majority of Americans would support equal marriage rights. Or that the nation would have a large and growing black middle class. It would have seemed beyond possibility that a black man, the child of an interracial couple, would become President of the United States. I would not have predicted that the rate of college enrollment among Hispanics would exceed that of whites. Or that more than 80 percent of Americans would have health insurance, most of it through government.

I wouldn’t have foreseen that the Cuyahoga River – the one that used to catch fire regularly – would come to support 44 species of fish. And that over half our rivers and 70 percent of bays and estuaries would become safe for swimming and fishing. Or that some 200,000 premature deaths and 700,000 cases of chronic bronchitis would have been prevented because the air is cleaner. Or that the portion of children with elevated levels of lead in their blood would have dropped from 88 percent to just over 4 percent.

I would not have believed our nation capable of so much positive change. Yet we achieved it. And we have just begun.

Widening inequality, a shrinking middle class, global warming, the corruption of our democracy by big money – all of these, and more, must be addressed. To make progress on these — and to prevent ourselves from slipping backwards — will require no less steadfastness, intelligence, and patience than was necessitated before.

The genius of America lies in its resilience and pragmatism. We believe in social progress because we were born into it. It is our national creed. Which is to say, I understand your cynicism. It looks pretty hopeless. But, believe me, it isn’t. Not if you pitch in.

Robert Reich

But the last 40 years also ushered in what I call a darkness on the world in the form of religious and economic fundamentalism. It will be the task of the younger generation, to do battle against this Darkness and bring about Light, to slay this dragon, or to at least make it go back into its cave. Already, the younger generation are questioning this Darkness.

It might be that their fight will last a life time and the results only accrue to their children, my grandchildren. The Fight is continuing. The Fight has just begun.

a reply to: desert

I don't know if others see as I do. I'm probably a bit Aspergers as my brain sees boxes that connect like a puzzle.

My avatar represents perspective (am I seeing in or am I seeing out) and I'm "Standing on the Moon". Too many people view the world only from their own "porch" and how the world revolves around them.

I think it's important to see the whole of human existence. I think Sagan's video "Pale Blue Dot" is the most significant message of modern times.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

a reply to: Annee

Way off topic but just wanted to ask. Have you heard about Temple Grandin?

I had read her book, then happened to find out at work that one of my colleagues not only had heard of her but swore by her methods.

originally posted by: desert
a reply to: Annee

Way off topic but just wanted to ask. Have you heard about Temple Grandin?

I had read her book, then happened to find out at work that one of my colleagues not only had heard of her but swore by her methods.

Yes. Actually very familiar with her.

I am in no way that extreme, but I was "out of sync" with most everyone. I really couldn't relate in school, or with my peers. On my own I learned tricks to function in society. There was no special training like there is today.

a reply to: Annee

When you mentioned about your grandson, I immediately thought of Ms. Grandin. Glad you know about her. She can really share her personal knowledge about autism for the rest of us to begin to understand. And, yes, it is these "tricks" that need to be passed on, to help others navigate the world. Good teachers do not make students dependent on them but rather teach kids how to navigate independently to the best of their ability.

..............continuing on

What you said about seeing "the whole of human existence" in your prior post is so true. That is the only thing that will help the world glue itself back together from the pieces it has broken into.

People like Mr. Jack, who instigated this brouhaha, would prefer to keep the world into broken pieces. It is more comfortable for them to live in only a piece of the world. And to defend their piece by saying that that is what God wants, that God thinks like them.

And, beware their trickery, when they now say that they really are on this poor baker's side, claiming the govt shouldn't "force" this poor baker to write on a cake anymore than the guvt should "force" a baker to bake a wedding cake for gays. Again, falsely equating the two instances. Forgive them, for they know not what they do. But don't let them get away with it.