Speaking of the Devil....

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
originally posted by: veteranhumanbeingoriginally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: veteranhumanbeing

This so sad, (your point of view) as Poland did not have a standing army at all; they were trying to live their lives simply and honestly. I guess their God failed to inform them; "you are about to be invaded by Fascist Nazis that will murder your" RUN FOR YOUR LIVES. They would probably have responded in this way "NO WAY; why a human do such a thing to another fellow human?". Gods response "They are not human, they are monsters".

jmdewey60 Where are you getting this? Have you ever thought about doing some study into actual history rather than going with TV contrived pseudo-history? Do you actually believe that Poland did not have an army?

VHB: What is depicted is actual Polish men on horseback with sabers charging German tanks.

jmdewey60: Seriously?And you think that Poland did not have any tanks of their own?
I would suggest pulling yourself away from the TV long enough to do some study in actual books.

UTNA: Are you suggesting that the Polish sub that torpedoed a ship full of Nazi troops among the skerries here a day before the Weserübung invasion 9th April 1940-- that they were part of some other standing force than the Polish one? You are partly right actually, for by 1940 when this happened, the Polish navy ran under British flag, but saying Poland did not have an army during the invasion of Poland 1st September 1939 is utter bollocks. I suggest you buy some updated book about World War Two.

Who, me? I suggest My bollocks are not on the line here.

UTNA; The Nazis orchestrated a false-flag "attack" where fake Polish soldiers attempted an attack on Germany, upon which the Nazis invaded Poland in a seemingly defensive manoeuvre, which it was not of course, but it bought the Nazis time. The event was all but friendly or defensive, though the Polish call it "The 1939 Defence War" the Nazi code name was «Fall Weiss». It was indeed violent and the «Polenfeldzug» was the first time the Blitzkrieg tactics were used. Had say, England or Soviet reacted as they should've, the war would have ended there in Poland and Hitler would have been an easy target and Germany would be back to square one, for the soldiers lacked ammunition and vital supplies, but because of this false flag manoeuvre, Germany managed to buy time and produce enough ammunition to stand off any real enemy attacks.

Buy time? in one operation to take over their own radio station, murder the employees and blamed it on a Polish invasion of the 'airwaves' the Germans totally armed their war machine in 2 days!? (they'd been at it since 1933).
The ONE and ONLY ever submarine the Polish constructed and put into production!! (where are the blueprints where was it constructed), OH it was the REAL "Nautaulus" captained by NEMO, (you sure this one was not of a make and model built by others) existing/flying under a British flag that you believe constitutes another entire NAVY? That one WAS British funded as you say; torpedoed a ship full of Germans? When did the Pols build this super submarine; before the invasion? Most Pols fled to the UK before the Nazi/Soviet invasion and fought with the allies to free Europe. Are you suggesting/saying there is one suspicious Jules Verne type submarine (the Pols built) that torpedoed a troop ship of Germans IS STILL DANGEROUSLY AT LARGE?

a reply to: vethumanbeing

. . . those that have inhabited that safe harmonious place for many years;

Obviously it was none of those things.
Why do you think Poland devolved into despotism in the twenties and thirties?
It wasn't the ideal paradise that apparently imagine.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

. . . operation to take over their own radio station, murder the employees and blamed it on a Polish invasion . . .

That was a story that was devised after the end of the war, that it was actually a false flag attack.
The Germans had the dead body of one of the attackers who was not able to get away with the others, so it was never questioned until the Nuremberg trials, when the authorities were grasping at anything that would get them the convictions they wanted.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: vethumanbeing

. . . operation to take over their own radio station, murder the employees and blamed it on a Polish invasion . . .

That was a story that was devised after the end of the war, that it was actually a false flag attack.
The Germans had the dead body of one of the attackers who was not able to get away with the others, so it was never questioned until the Nuremberg trials, when the authorities were grasping at anything that would get them the convictions they wanted.

You point being; this was just a STORY, that a radio station 'movie styled massacre' choreographed by the Germans to insight the invasion of Poland was a "false flag attack" (what does that even mean). You say the Germans were innocent fascists that never tried to dominate Europe (the intention of bettering others by exterminating them was entirely misunderstood/CONDOS FOR ALL EQUAL to the Uberman racist philosophy). The Nuremberg trials got it all wrong. Here is what they neglected to get right; going after Stalin and his henchmen that murdered millions of his own people in the name of Marxism (kill the unfit, those not Aryan, or racially different, kill those that have a spiritual belief system). Communists are so loving and all inclusive fairness abounds in that philosophy (everyone is equal UNLESS YOU ARE DEEMED NOT). God forbid you had 'freckles' in Nazi Germany; that would have been an automatic death sentence. You have not addressed many points in my posts formost are: who actually funded the Nazi regime and who ironically toiled in the factories and fields for/ after all of the German men ages 15-50 available were sucked blindly into Hitler's nationalistic ideology to eventually die for HIS Reich?

originally posted by: jmdewey60t
Why do you think Poland devolved into despotism in the twenties and thirties?
It wasn't the ideal paradise that apparently imagine.

What? as if communism or socialism was to be their great saving grace? Within both ideologies is the hope of 'equality' (everyone is treated on a level playing field, no caste system). NO SO. Look at what happened; first to be murdered (by Stalin) were the Ukrainians; *7 million starved to death* JUST BECAUSE THEY LIVED IN AN AREA HE WANTED (not because of fascist religious beliefs, Catholic/Jews/Gypsies) that might have posed a threat to the greater Soviet Union. Stalin wanted what he felt was the spiritual center or heart; Kiev that was in the Ukraine; screw St. Petersburg. What would happen if ISIS felt Putin was weak and began terrorist actions in Russia or began actions in China? I look at the 'why' are these things not happening? Because ISIS fears those nations.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

You say the Germans were innocent fascists that never tried to dominate Europe

Keep in mind that the US was also a "fascist" state, and was often the example that Germany modeled themselves after.
They learned what is now called the "nazi salute" from US practice.
They learned eugenics from the US, and Hitler was given awards from US institutions for his progress in the field.
The fascist regime in Spain was propped up by US aid, despite a few individuals Americans like Hemingway supporting the Spanish resistance.
As German planes flew overhead in the Spanish Civil War, the fascists were moving on the ground with US supplied equipment.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I applaud your response here, even though I think we stand on opposite sides of that goat fence when it comes to religion, etc. Hypocrisy was most rightly the greatest sin that Jesus railed against, and the people he hung out with were 'sinners', such as prostitutes & the despised Inland Revenue/IRS types, as opposed to the 'righteous' religious leaders.

Hehe, so what's new?

Which kind of leaves us in a quandary. It seems that anyone who would dare to speak truth about the divine better have their house fully in order before making the attempt - otherwise, the ladies of the red light district are indeed closer to Heaven than they.

In general, when some puffed up idiot tries to take over the world, they elevate themselves to staggering heights. Pretty soon the bookies start taking bets on the inevitable-- fall. Jesse made an other approach. Walking the streets, making gatherings in the desert, hiring people from the working class, like you say hanging out with whores and accountants, even the devil himself, and a few militant fanatics. He was so grounded and such a down-to-earth kind of guy, that the Romans and the Jewish elite had to elevate him themselves, in what remains one of the oddest executions in history, when you consider the effect it had on the world and what happened in the wakes.

The enemy (satan, devil, dragon, the boogieman) of Christendom wasn't Judaism or some other Abrahamic religion (like Islam), but Rome and it's pantheon, the Greek gods. Original Christianity was in all essence Judaism, Jesus simply held an alternate rabbinical approach to certain things. An other important thing is that I believe Jesus was the son of Caesarion making him the sole heir to the thrones of Caesar (Rome), the Ptolemys (Egypt and Greece) through his father, and the throne of David through his mother Mary who was of royal descent, and his genealogies show two straight lines back to David through Solomon. Jesus was most likely named after his mother who was a Davidian, since Jesus was born out of wedlock. He would carry his mother's family name, his full name would be Hosea Bar-David.

However, as the Church slowly devoured the Roman Empire and shat it out again placing kings at proper places around Europe and elevating some French or German fool to new heights, and on top of these kings and emperors, seated itself, the Holy Father (the pope), sporting his high hat with his three golden crowns on to of each other carrying the keys to heaven and hell (note how in certain worlds the keys are directed not towards heaven, but downwards towards the Abyss)--- The Church acquired and assumed or became the Imperial Pantheon. Keeping up ancient pagan traditions and festivals/holidays (like "Jul" and "Easter"), building their churches on ancient pagan holy grounds, replacing ancient pantheons with their own based on saints, one or more for each day, you know the drill I suppose.

In short, it's a bloody mess, but it all makes sense when you go through the numbers and the small-print argus-style.

I actually find your derisive, yet balanced, approach to revealing the hypocrisy of religion very refreshing.

Aye, I'll take that with me. Though, derisive? Well, I suppose it's the result of being generally spat at and shat at here lately, without mentioning anyone specifically of course

One thing I would like to note is that whilst you admit that the origins of the Jovian myths are very ancient, you seem to hold the view that prior to 6000 years ago, there was no civilisation, and all those cultures that sprang up with tales of the same gods, in many locations around the world, were simply dreaming up the same dude/s/esses from their collective imagination.

I don't really say that (the Vedas show evidence of high civ ages ago, the Americans speak of several worlds/civilisations, also ages ago), if I have left you with that impression, I have failed. These ancient pantheons in question, derive from a well of earlier traditions that goes back far beyond the agricultural revolution (about 10-12 000 years ago) and the dawn of modern civilisation (around 6-7 000 years ago). There were probably Jupiter cults 100 000 years ago. Man wasn't stupider back then, they had our exact same brains. They noticed early on that some stars moved and changed appearance over time, and they soon realised the cyclical nature of it, and how if they could make people react in a certain way under certain planetary phenomena, they could plan ages ahead, and make the chaotic day-to-day life more predictable and tolerable. Being able to predict stuff like solar eclipses, comets appearance or planet alignments, would no doubt mean great power, and astrological religion arose as a mix between a mythology where the stories reflected astrological archetypes and elaborate priesthoods and cults worshipping these things according to certain doctrines and liturgies. One of the oldest kinds of stellar worship is connected to Sirius and the Pleiades. Jupiter/Saturn and Venus/Mars worship can also be traced back long before the dawn of modern civilisation.

With civilisation came written language, ways to note music, systems of geometry, geographical and astronomical measures, and standardisation and new concepts of doctrine and religion/priesthood. Civilisation was like petrol on the fire, religion burst out like an atomic bomb and these ancient pantheistic and all sorts of anthropomorphic mythologies and belief systems were smelted up and refined into stuff we can easily analyse and categorise, interpret and put into context today.

How can you say that with a straight face? I would think it is clear that even if it was purely 'astral' (I personally think there were elements of physical reality involved in addition) - these ancient cultures were meeting, and being instructed by, certain beings with defined characteristics, trades & symbolism associated with them.

To me, there were obviously some elites in pre-civ mostly unwritten history, who had access to ships or planes and spaceships for that matter allowing them to cross oceans and know the shape of the earth 7c, the moons of Mars and Jupiter, building pyramids along the zenith belt as far from each other as Ecuador, Egypt and Tibet, showing evidence of knowledge of axial precession, math and astronomy that baffle scientists even today. Religion is highly human, and an expression of a longing for the stars, as if missing or commemorating people who came from the stars and transformed us from savages into gods.

PS - thanks for the timely reminder re: the throne of Pergamum. I find it useful at this time, in a related assessment of certain other things. Naturally, I no longer believe in coincidence.

The Ottomans giving the German Reich the Throne of Pergamum fulfilled quite a few prophecies, and when it was fully restored in 1930 it brought with it a Zeusian (in lack of a better term) wind that culminated with the '36 Olympics, where Hitler appears as an embodiment of Zeus. Lovely.

PPS - your avatar is awesome btw.

I agree My Hipster Hercules in Hell

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: vethumanbeing

You say the Germans were innocent fascists that never tried to dominate Europe

Keep in mind that the US was also a "fascist" state, and was often the example that Germany modeled themselves after.
They learned what is now called the "nazi salute" from US practice.
They learned eugenics from the US, and Hitler was given awards from US institutions for his progress in the field.
The fascist regime in Spain was propped up by US aid, despite a few individuals Americans like Hemingway supporting the Spanish resistance.
As German planes flew overhead in the Spanish Civil War, the fascists were moving on the ground with US supplied equipment.

You did not answer my question.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

You did not answer my question.

About people "toiling"?
I don't know, it's war, and in the US you had Rosie the Riveter.
People in the US worked longer hours during the war, for less money, and paid higher taxes.
People were conscripted into the military.
People lived in cramped quarters where they were "doubled up".

In Germany, it was worse because they were struggling for their very survival, and people needed to work if they wanted to be considered as part of the country, and if some felt like they would rather spend their time subverting the effort, then they were put into camps to where they were persuaded to work.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: vethumanbeing

You did not answer my question.

About people "toiling"?
I don't know, it's war, and in the US you had Rosie the Riveter.
People in the US worked longer hours during the war, for less money, and paid higher taxes.
People were conscripted into the military.
People lived in cramped quarters where they were "doubled up".

In Germany, it was worse because they were struggling for their very survival, and people needed to work if they wanted to be considered as part of the country, and if some felt like they would rather spend their time subverting the effort, then they were put into camps to where they were persuaded to work.

No one was conscripted here (USA) during WW2 (that ideology ended in the late 1800's with the abolishment of slavery), those that fought were volunteers. No one working for the war effort lived in cramped quarters, they lived at home and went to work at converted Ford motor car factories etc. I am not sure if you are talking about the living conditions of the Germans before WW1 or after WW2 (both wars THEY instigated ended badly for them) and who rebuilt their major cities infrastructure after they surrendered? The USA. Did Germany help rebuild England in any way (they bombed/destroyed 40% of London)? NO.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

No one was conscripted here (USA) during WW2 . . .

The Selective Service Act of 1940 brought it back. They just replaced the term "conscription" with "the draft".

No one working for the war effort lived in cramped quarters, they lived at home . . .

Their "home" was in the country, and when they came to do war work, they were in the city, and they were not building the cities bigger at the time, so people were "doubled up", as I mentioned earlier.
My mother had to go through that since all of a sudden there was a lot of job openings in the War Department offices in DC, where she went to work, previously living in West Virginia. She didn't work from home, and she was not commuting hundreds of miles every day, she had to move there.

both wars THEY instigated ended badly for them

The on-purpose bombing of people's houses was started by the English bombing non-military targets in Germany. Also, the English were the first to use incendiary bombs. So the original provocation and the subsequent continuous escalation was the work of the English, starting with the bringing about of the so-called treaty of Versailles, after WW 1 was already over, to permanently break the back of Germany.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Congrats on the smackdown, well-written and simple enough for even a dumbass to understand.

I can't believe a holocaust-denying fascist d.....s is being allowed to post on ATS!

Has anyone reported this nonsense to the mods?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Fantastic response, lots of great information & food for further thought.

And thank you for not doing what most people do when challenged (including myself usually) - you gave zero argumentalism, and demonstrated no feelings of affront over my misrepresentations of your understanding (such as the pre-6000 yrs civilisation bit). It's yet again, refreshing. And sorry for the use of the term 'derisive' - I fully get how it's easy to get wound up by particularly irksome knuckle heads. I had only read a couple of your posts when I initially replied, so hadn't really got to understand your character & substance yet (I don't usually get mired in this particular forum..)

One of the saddest things for me personally, is that I do feel a connection to the Infinite One through the church, through prayer/ self-reflection/ meditation/ mindfulness/ vision questing, etc... However, the denizens of the church, the leaders of the church too, are in great number so woefully ignorant of all manner of topics, such as are absolutely crucial to a proper understanding of the world, as to make it near-impossible to debate the really interesting stuff with any of them.. In the context I write here, 'church' refers to non-Roman Catholic traditions; the Vatican & affiliates have a full understanding of it all, and yet peddle a charade. I confess that sometimes I also fall into the trap of resting on firm foundation instead of treading upon the waters. We're like sheep without a shepherd, like a brood of chicks without their mother Hen.

Your knowledge is clear and bright, and I respect you with regards to Religion in the same way I respect the Gut in terms of UFO/Mil-Industrial shenanigans, and after reading your response to my post, I am reassured that we actually don't sit too far across the fence from each other. Mutual respect, persistence in the search for knowledge & understanding, a gathering of intelligent counsellors, with access to accurate information - it all adds up to a phenomenal trove of potential for personal growth. The fault is certainly not with our stars, as they say - I feel it's perhaps time for me to man up & step out of the boat.

Cheers, I will sign of with a simple: 'look forward to future discussions'. I would love to go into depth over a number of issues you raised in your reply, but I am sadly pressed for time, so my reasoning went that a bit of gratitude, plus a dash of idolatrous fawning, was mos-def in order..




FITO..




Here's a nice song which represents the situation we face:

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

For some reason, after reading through the lyrics of that song, I came to think of a certain Celtic goddess, or rather a triplet of said kind-- we might find use of truce. Reason may be, of course, that it's indeed something I recently read, then again, time and coincidence are fluid elements, a memory lingers, of what not quite sure, maybe some poetry ftw be proper;

Of descent, what could I say?
To fair ground, suppose, or nay--
This serpent seems polite, assume--
Its bite so gentle, rare perfume--
Genuine I wonder, resume or lay?
Can infinite night consume the day?



As for my concept of God and the divine, there is confusion, and there is a twine tail to it, of standing behind oneself. As it is All and Nothing all at once, ever evident but impossible to point out or grab-- there is conflict and contradiction, as the mind starts rationalising making way through paradox and dilemma, bug-fixing almost, like with physicists and that damned cat of theirs, a tool for remembrance, how it's both dead and alive and still neither just to keep the argument alive and healthy and further refine the sharpest truths; so you will find many concepts of God and Divinity in my scribbles, I respect them all however, as they are aspects of the greater, what'd you call it...

These modes can't all be right, but what if I add the key of Hermes-- that the Cosmos and our physical reality are but the manifested thoughts and ideas, fears and dreams and so on-- of God, good or bad, or in-between or beyond? A manifested echo from God passing by a moment all ages ago, a frozen yet deteriorating or transmuting moment, melting, cracking up, and stretched out between the illusive walls of the ever infinite yet gone, moment, and that is why everything withers, dies, rots and rusts in our presence, like memories fading out over time, transmuting into wisdom or instinct, inspiration or that lingering gut-feeling or sense of persuasive oddity, some distant illogical longing or pride even, or for chance at odds and the possibility of some elusive fortune for that matter.

--Through our minds we can make sense in all of this, we can acquire or tap into God's consciousness (or anyone else's for that matter) through reason or love, to escape this frozen Hell we're all locked inside of, and build a lush and warm haven in space, this here humble planet-- if only for faith-- or stubborn demand-- that light can prevail in darkness and void such as Heaven holds-- needed to live the next moment just to escape the former like a breath or epiphany, and return through a second cosmos-- this world is an image of a higher reality-- religion and science holds the clues, I can dig.

-- Water doesn't quench fire to rule days...

See you around

PS ==> I some times pity those protesting what I write about, I may be arrogant, but they can't possibly have what it takes....
PS2 ==> Religion is my favorite past-time, merely skin-deep. In sum: We are in heaven, we live like angels, if God shows up, it is to destroy...

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Congrats on the smackdown, well-written and simple enough for even a dumbass to understand.

Hmm. OK.

I can't believe a holocaust-denying fascist d.....s is being allowed to post on ATS!

There were fascists who supported the Hitler era German government, but that does not make them fascists.
It was the National Socialist Workers Party (sometimes shortened to NAZI, by its enemies to make it a derogatory term) that would be naturally adverse to the capitalistic aspects of fascism. Many of the highest ranking and lower level party leaders were openly critical of the ideas of fascism.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I still don't understand how you manage to reconcile all that in your mind, in terms of providing the resulting conclusions you seem to adhere to.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Are you a Nazi sympathizer?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Very quick one to show appreciation for the once more intriguing response.

Will come back later with thoughts..

originally posted by: jmdewey60
There were fascists who supported the Hitler era German government, but that does not make them fascists.

OK, you wish to shine ideologies and you seem to live in the illusion that National Socialism (Nazism) is some sort of socialism. It is not. Nazism is about as far from socialism as your bullsh*t is from cattle. Nazism is fascism in its most pristine shape. Now, let's look at what fascism is, why it is called fascism, its connection to Mussolini and Hitler and so on. A quick course.



In the picture above you see a War era German stamp featuring victorious style portraits of Hitler and Mussolini, flanked by their respective symbols under the motto «Two peoples and One struggle». To the right, the Imperial Eagle carrying a laurel wreath (symbol of Zeus) around a swastika raised on a pedestal. To the left, and please take note of this, you find Mussolini's symbol, a number of batons, and an executioner's axe wrapped up in a bundle. Baton in Latin is Fasces, and the symbol displayed in the pic/stamp is an ancient Roman heraldic symbol for police and law enforcement. The Mussolini family had such a symbol in their heraldic crest or coat of arms, and is also prominent in Mussolini's personal standart:



When there were tumults officers of the law would show up and gather a select mob of brutes, untie the bundle and have them literally beat down and cut off any insurgency. You can often see a spear (for blessed Cain and Longinus) also, in the symbol, wrapped up together with the fasces and the axe, like in the badge of the Norwegian police, their mark of protection:



Thus fascism, by popular tongue, would render into a police-state scenario/ideology. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and later Franco were all fascist despots presiding over brutally and rigorously enforced police states.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I still don't understand how you manage to reconcile all that in your mind, in terms of providing the resulting conclusions you seem to adhere to.

There are two things:
1) actual history, something that you learn from years of study reading history books.
2) fake history, something that you pick up watching TV and movies that are convenient vehicles for propaganda.

If all one knows is #2, then it is impossible to "reconcile" things.
The forces for the status quo likes to make people feel happy about their situation by making a fantasy picture of how evil the alternative might be. One way of doing that is taking things that they actually do themselves, and make a grotesque version that they project onto a group who were actually opposed to those practices, to get people to hate them and to not pay any attention to their core message, which in this case, was one of revolution, to throw off the slavery that those forces had been subjecting the world to.