Speaking of the Devil....

We must remember that Jesus is a rock of offense and a stone of stumbling. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength Cor 1:25. What is more universally offensive than stench? # smells the same in every language ....and yet is it necessarily a moral offense ? ( God is Judge ). And how God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are 1 Cor 1:28. Encopresis, Halitosis and other such despised things are very effective psychological chains to steer or bind souls ( who could know whether such a thing would be imparted by a friend or an enemy ?). But God uses things of honor and things of dishonor to accomplish His purpose. I think it's all part of the scapegoat deal...

originally posted by: HarryJoy
We must remember that Jesus is a rock of offense and a stone of stumbling. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength Cor 1:25. What is more universally offensive than stench? # smells the same in every language ....and yet is it necessarily a moral offense ? ( God is Judge ). And how God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are 1 Cor 1:28. Encopresis, Halitosis and other such despised things are very effective psychological chains to steer or bind souls ( who could know whether such a thing would be imparted by a friend or an enemy ?). But God uses things of honor and things of dishonor to accomplish His purpose. I think it's all part of the scapegoat deal...

If you place God at the wheel of the vehicle it is driving (humankind) it could be a sociopath, no regard for the individualized souls/life we are at all; or driving under the influence of its self inflated Ego. It could also be experiencing the most it can in a short term experiment IT set up (we being IT are its own Lab Rats) so can sacrifice a bit of Itself to know itself. A long Con sort of slow self suicide. We always have to report back after the recent physical death; and the question is always this: "What was your experience of the CRAZY thing I set up"?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Explain, please, how Zeus/Jupiter is the Devil.

In your own words, please, at least for now. Save the links and quotes for later.

a reply to: Astyanax

Baal, Bel, Marduk, Zeus, and most if not all the pagan gods that is identified with Satan in the Bible are astrological kings of their pantheon and an embodiment of planet Jupiter, and are in effect the same god but with different names reflecting different cultures and historic periods. The Dragon is the Imperial Pantheon. Satan is Zeus. The Empire is the Beast. Imperial Religion is Babylon. High Priest is their Prophet.

ETA: Notice how when Jesus is tempted by the Devil, he is first taken up to his big mountain, which would be Mount Olympus. He is then taken to a wing of the temple wall, where Herod the Great is supposed to have placed prominent Zeus/Jupiter idols or some kind of ornaments relating to Rome and Jupiter/Zeus, probably the imperial eagle or something, I have never managed to retrieve any good source as to what exactly was put up there. Jesus says Zeus' throne is in Pergamon in Revelation. The prominent throne of Zeus was found on top of the Pergamon acropolis, but was disassembled by German archaeologists during the late 1800's and moved to Berlin where it was reassembled and stands to this day. Hitler (with his Dritte Reich an extension of the German/Roman Empire, the little horn, and the apex of the Beast, he wanted to revive the greatness of the Roman Empire) was the first to broadcast live footage of the (1936 Berlin) Olympic Games, which was full of nazi propaganda with nazi banners and well i could carry on....

A second parallel would be IS and their direct connection to the former world empires (Empires Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Media), they recruit soldiers en masse from Europe (Empires Greece, Rome) are apparently also directly connected to the Assassine order, and their 'Man on the Mountain'.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Baal, Bel, Marduk, Zeus, and most if not all the pagan gods that is identified with Satan in the Bible...

Where in the Bible does it say that Zeus is Satan? Are you going 'The Bible says Satan = Baal, Baal = Zeus because they are both identified with the same planet, therefore Satan = Zeus'? That's a goulash you have cooked up by mashing ancient superstition together with modern comparative mythology. The latter was unknown to the authors of the Bible. Intelligent Greeks like Herodotus understood that the gods travelled (though he was wrong to place the origins of the Greek pantheon in Egypt) but the camel-jockeys who wrote the Bible knew nothing of this.

The Dragon is the Imperial Pantheon. Satan is Zeus. The Empire is the Beast. Imperial Religion is Babylon. High Priest is their Prophet.

And I am Gradgrind. Spare me your interpretation and stick to the facts.

Notice how when Jesus is tempted by the Devil, he is first taken up to his big mountain, which would be Mount Olympus.

Mount Olympus is in Thessaly, not in the Sinai.

Thank you for your reply. No further questions. No further interest in this argument either.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Where in the Bible does it say that Zeus is Satan?

OT: On Kislev 25th in 168 BC the Syrian king Antiochus IV turned the Temple in Jerusalem into a Zeus temple in an attempt at forcing Hellenism on the Jews following a long period under the Ptolomy rulers where religious freedom was enforced. By installing a large statue of Zeus in the sanctuary, to which Antiochus IV demanded sacrifices to be made, the prophecy of Daniel concerning the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled. Antiochus IV took the Greek title Epiphanes which means "God Revealed" and he identified himself with Zeus and/or Baal Shamem.

NT: In Revelation 2:13 Jesus proclaims to the angel of Pergamon: «I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is» and further in Revelation 13:2 «And the beast that I saw [...] to it the dragon gave his power and his throne».

A: Who's throne was found in Pergamon?
B: When was it given to the Beast?

A: The massive Zeus altar was prominent on top of the Pergamon acropolis
B: Around 1880 when it was given to the German Empire by the Ottoman Empire and moved to Berlin and reconstructed
Source

As most people should know, Hitler's Third Reich, was a succession of the two former German Reichs:
==> First Reich: The Holy Roman Empire (911–1806)
==> Second Reich: The German Empire (1871–1918)
==> Third Reich: Nazi Germany (1933–1945)
Source

Daniel says about the last beast which is obviously the Roman Empire and it's final extension/horn, Hitler and his Third Reich:

...It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. [ESV] Daniel 7:7-8

When Hitler came to power, he plucked out the three highest seats of power in Germany, the Reich President, the Reich Kansler and the Reich Army Minister and replaced them with one head of state, himself, Der Führer. Hitler fulfilled the prophecy of "the Little Horn".

I could carry on, but let's get back to Zeus:

Zeus/Jupiter was the king of the Greco-Roman pantheon and the godhead of the religion of the Empires, and our days are traditionally named after the gods of this pantheon, in Germanic culture the Norse equivalent gods are used for most days, but it follows the same pattern as has been in use since Babylon. Thursday (Thor was seen as the equivalent to Zeus) in Latin is Dies Jovis, Day of Jupiter, and it is named after the planet AND the god. The god assigned to planet Jupiter was the head of these pantheons, and placed in the middle of the week. Every second fortnight an eighth day was inserted to complete the Lunar cycle of 29 days, compare with Re. 17:11. This 8th day was "the second Venus" (compare Lucifer-Vesper, they saw Venus as two separate planets). The pantheons of these world empires are in all essence identical, save for the names and different changes made to fit these gods and heroes into the cultures of these successive empires.

If you analyse the Bible and compare it with history, you will soon identify seven (or eight) major imperial enemy world empires with more or less identical pantheons, enemies of the Jewish nation and monotheistic Judiasm, the successive world empires, one devouring the former being devoured by the next and so on, and they all served under similar, almost identical astrological pantheons. Fast back to the Beast, the instrument of the Dragon:

[The seven heads] are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. [ESV] Revelation 17:10-11

1 ==> Egyptian Empire
2 ==> Assyrian Empire
3 ==> Babylonian Empire (Daniel: Lion)
4 ==> Medo-Persian Empire (Daniel: Bear)
5 ==> Greek Empire (Daniel: Leopard)
6 ==> Roman Empire, Curia led by Caesar (Daniel: Ten horns. John: The severed head)
7 ==> Holy Roman Empire, Curia led by the Pope and the Preussian emperors (Daniel: Ten horns. John: chapter 17 Beast and Mystery Babylon)
8 ==> Hitler's Third Reich (Daniel: Little Horn. John: "The 8th") was an extension of the German-Roman empire, his vision was to revive the greatness of the Empire, an Aryan one (Persia, Iran means lit. "The Aryan People"), but the Third Reich only lasted a few years (1933-1945).

Are you going 'The Bible says Satan = Baal, Baal = Zeus because they are both identified with the same planet, therefore Satan = Zeus'? That's a goulash you have cooked up by mashing ancient superstition together with modern comparative mythology. The latter was unknown to the authors of the Bible. Intelligent Greeks like Herodotus understood that the gods travelled (though he was wrong to place the origins of the Greek pantheon in Egypt) but the camel-jockeys who wrote the Bible knew nothing of this.

Those camel jockeys were mostly Roman and Greek scribes who wrote the Septuagint and most of NT. Didn't they know about Zeus and Jupiter and how they are basically the same god as Hadad, Marduk, Bel and Baal and others?

And I am Gradgrind. Spare me your interpretation and stick to the facts.

Facts? The Bible and Greeco-Roman mythologies are facts to you? Spare me.

Mount Olympus is in Thessaly, not in the Sinai.

Sinai? Please. Zeus' mountain was Olympus, not Sinai. And btw it was a mythical place, not the mountain we call Olympus today. That one has been named in courtesy of the Myths. In Norway we have a place called Hell. And other places called Valhall and Gimle etc. Would you say these places are identical to their mythical namesakes?

Thank you for your reply. No further questions. No further interest in this argument either.

Fine. And thank you for participating and contributing. On a side note, it's important to note that the hierarchies of the Beast and the Dragon are present in every Christian nation and was also enforced by Moses and David earlier on. It is our way of securing freedom. Beast is trad. royalty and politics and secular justice. Dragon is our militaries with our generals, admirals, secret services and martial law. Hell or the Lake of Fire is the state of war.

As I close: We should really love our satans and our beasts, for in times of trouble they secure the peace and defend us against outer enemies.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Astynax: Where in the Bible does it say that Zeus is Satan?

text edit see above post

Utnapisjitim: Fine. And thank you for participating and contributing. On a side note, it's important to note that the hierarchies of the Beast and the Dragon are present in every Christian nation and was also enforced by Moses and David earlier on. It is our way of securing freedom. Beast is trad. royalty and politics and secular justice. Dragon is our militaries with our generals, admirals, secret services and martial law. Hell or the Lake of Fire is the state of war.As I close: We should really love our satans and our beasts, for in times of trouble they secure the peace and defend us against outer enemies.

It is OUR way of securing freedom through the dark side utilizing it (have we been on the wrong side all along; that of enlightenment all that exists as we know as GOOD and MORAL are a false premise)? There is no positive outcome here (YET this universe grows by this concept not by negatives). You are promoting war and chaos as the vehicle to changing this paradigm (into WHAT EXACTLY: your vision of some type of perfection)? Fascism isn't the answer, I called you out as I perceived you, another Alexander Dugan. What exactly are you securing freedom from (who are your overlords/outer enemies). Love your Satan and beasts; have they guaranteed you a free front row seat in Satan's Salon (otherwise, you might frantically change your mind last minute and may have to trust buying a scalped ticket to heaven, that will be a forgery actually; sending you strait to the ABYSS of no mans land).

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Who ever said the Dragon is evil beyond the evils of war and law enforcement? Yes, our kings and presidents DO have armies and terrible weapons, and yes killing eachother and dropping bombs on people IS evil. War IS evil. The Dragon is the gauntlet on God's right hand, beside whom the Son stands. The dragon are those who rule in the Father's absence making sure humankind is behaving and don't break the rules. The Dragon stands between the Father and the Son of Man. God made Satan first to be the Son of Man's big brother and protection. Call him Jesus' bodyguard if you like. Don't you know that both good and evil comes on behalf of God? Yes, Satan is evil, he better be, for if he wasn't, we'd be extinct long time ago. For all I know life as such wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Samael and his dragons, there certainly wouldn't have been birds around.

Satan is a necessary evil in the current world, but in time, and soon, things will change, and Satan will become a huge AI computer cluster monitoring people's minds and whereabouts via a huge network infrastructure sporting millennium grade encryption (the Lucifer cipher comes to mind) buried into the ground connecting all parts of the world with unlimited capacity and stability. But until then we need our police and our armies and politicians and their main religion, Homer basically. Since it's useful.

Big data, full surveillance of all individuals, constantly analysed. Crime drops drastically. War and terror non-existent. Check with your bible, it's basically what's gonna happen. Or rather, what's happening as we speak. The spiritual entities relating to the Dragon, will inhabit the insides of the Earth, and live inside the AI mainframe and network. After all, copper and serpent is more or less the same word in Hebrew. Go figure. As most people should be aware of by now, we already have the technology, and the future/primordial AI is already monitoring matrix style, directing the past-- our present.

There is no enmity between God and Satan. Satan is God's instrument. Same with the Beast. Royalty used to be a necessary evil, and today's politics, well. We need our dragons and our beasts. It's what God and Jesus is all about really. While they drink tea in Paradise, Satan is out doing the dirty work. Where does it say that we should hate Satan? I thank God for the bastard. Wouldn't be much beauty, rock'n'roll and progress without him I'm afraid. If you don't want the mark of the beast, well, simply don't enter the army and don't marry. It's really that easy.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: veteranhumanbeing

Dragon nonsense edited out as does not exist within our current perception (not that it didn't at one point in time exist I think they were called dinosaurs remembered as myth or scaled flying machines who knows they may have existed) so no fault goes to the idea of that potential reality (probably existed) no way to take 'selfies'.

Utnapisjtm: Satan is a necessary evil in the current world, but in time, and soon, things will change, and Satan will become a huge AI computer cluster monitoring people's minds and whereabouts via a huge network infrastructure sporting millennium grade encryption (the Lucifer cipher comes to mind) buried into the ground connecting all parts of the world with unlimited capacity and stability. But until then we need our police and our armies and politicians and their main religion, Homer basically. Since it's useful.

Why would Satan be a necessary evil unless you believe it will/MUST insert itself to cause change (its an idea form you profligate) not REAL unless your agenda is one FEAR BASED and promote an imbalance to inject chaos into this system to disrupt it. SATAN, seriously; I hope you are using that moniker only as a metaphor for something else more meaningful such as ("The return of Quetzalcoatl") authored by 'Daniel Pinchbeck' describing a change in paradigms. Homer and Plato would be useful if anyone knew their names as far as describing how the Greek Republic worked 2500 years ago.

Uptapisjtm: data, full surveillance of all individuals, constantly analysed. Crime drops drastically. War and terror non-existent. Check with your bible, it's basically what's gonna happen. Or rather, what's happening as we speak. The spiritual entities relating to the Dragon, will inhabit the insides of the Earth, and live inside the AI mainframe and network. After all, copper and serpent is more or less the same word in Hebrew. Go figure. As most people should be aware of by now, we already have the technology, and the future/primordial AI is already monitoring matrix style, directing the past-- our present.

You are admitting to having no problem with CCTV as it protects you unless caught committing a "states deemed" infraction of the governing districts law. The bible has nothing to do with state security, governments use its time honored laws to define human criminal activity. Artificial Intelligence is the nursery child of the human STILL, do not be afraid. Better to be afraid of existing 3D printers that can print/create biological components and Colt Commanders (it is true).

Uptapisjtm: there is no enmity between God and Satan. Satan is God's instrument. Same with the Beast. Royalty used to be a necessary evil, and today's politics, well. We need our dragons and our beasts. It's what God and Jesus is all about really. While they drink tea in Paradise, Satan is out doing the dirty work. Where does it say that we should hate Satan? I thank God for the bastard. Wouldn't be much beauty, rock'n'roll and progress without him I'm afraid. If you don't want the mark of the beast, well, simply don't enter the army and don't marry. It's really that easy.

Enmity? God and Satan are not brothers in wartime. What happened to Utopia or any idea of having one (oh that's right Lucifer ruined it). You think Satan created rock and roll to/in opposition to Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, or Prokofiev? It WAS ALL GODS DOING HIS CREATION, Satan was a shill and I would imagine is not happy about it.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

By installing a large statue of Zeus in the sanctuary, to which Antiochus IV demanded sacrifices to be made, the prophecy of Daniel concerning the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled. Antiochus IV took the Greek title Epiphanes which means "God Revealed" and he identified himself with Zeus and/or Baal Shamem.

This is scholarly speculation, which nothing in the Bible bears out. Where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

A: Who's throne was found in Pergamon?

Whose, not 'who's'. You're a scholar, right? You'll get more credibility from your intellectual peers if you spell like one.

No throne was found at Pergamon. A large altar to Zeus was found there. There was one in every Graeco-Roman city of any size, for obvious reasons. Where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

When Hitler came to power...

An irrelevant detour. Where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

Those camel jockeys were mostly Roman and Greek scribes who wrote the Septuagint and most of NT. Didn't they know about Zeus and Jupiter and how they are basically the same god as Hadad, Marduk, Bel and Baal and others?

Then why didn't they say so? Why didn't they say in the Bible that Zeus is Satan?

Facts? The Bible and Greeco-Roman mythologies are facts to you?

The facts about Graeco-Roman (not 'Greeco-Roman') mythology are facts. It is a fact, for example, that there is a myth about Actaeon and Diana. It is a fact that the myth includes a scene in which Acteon, transmogrified into a stag, is torn apart by Diana's hounds. The scene is fictional, but that it exists is fact.

Now, where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

Zeus' mountain was Olympus, not Sinai.

That's what I said. You, not I, said Satan took Jesus up to Mt. Olympus.

And btw it was a mythical place, not the mountain we call Olympus today.

It is the same mountain. They held the Olympic Games there for a reason. But this, too, is irrelevant. Saying Satan took Jesus up a mountain, saying the mountain is Mt. Olympus (a claim that not even a hint, let alone a shred of evidence, supports) and concluding from this claim that Zeus = Satan is a circular argument, don't you see?

So, where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

Actually, don't bother to answer. It doesn't — as both you and I know very well — and that, my scholastic friend, is that.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

By installing a large statue of Zeus in the sanctuary, to which Antiochus IV demanded sacrifices to be made, the prophecy of Daniel concerning the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled. Antiochus IV took the Greek title Epiphanes which means "God Revealed" and he identified himself with Zeus and/or Baal Shamem.

This is scholarly speculation, which nothing in the Bible bears out. Where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

OK. Scholarly speculation hehe.

A: Who's throne was found in Pergamon?

Whose, not 'who's'. You're a scholar, right? You'll get more credibility from your intellectual peers if you spell like one.

English isn't my first language. As for being a scholar? Not likely. I actually edited whose to who's since I always mess up the genitives and plurals in English. Anyway....

No throne was found at Pergamon. A large altar to Zeus was found there. There was one in every Graeco-Roman city of any size, for obvious reasons. Where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

Where in the American constitution does it say that communism is USA's nemesis? It doesn't say that straight out, it's a matter of experiencing stuff like how Liberalism and market economy, the ideals of the American Dream and liberty-- doesn't play well ball with communism. The Bible doesn't say straight out that Zeus is Satan. Neither did Machiavelli name his Prince. There are certain things you are left to figure out, you get a few pieces it's up to you to put it together. If you don't like the idea that the gods of Greece and Rome are opposing forces to the Biblical Jahveh or that Greece and Rome were enemies of the Hebrew nation. Fine. I don't see how that is my problem.

I don't think you appreciate the important prophetic mechanisms that were at play as the Pergamon altar was moved to Berlin and what significance these events had as to the prophecies of John. You seem quite intelligent, but somehow you believe that Zeus is God? I'm confused. If Zeus isn't Satan and the Pantheon is not the Dragon, then who are they? Is Zeus some colleague of God? A peer?

Take a look at Daniel 11 and pay attention to 11:38. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges has the following notes to the verse/passage:

biblehub.com... (link goes to verse 36, skip back and forth using the arrows):

38. But in his place he will honour the god of strongholds] it is not certain who is meant by the ‘god of strongholds’: possibly the reference is to some deity (? Mars) of whose worship by Antiochus we have no other notice; more probably, however, the name is simply an alternative designation of Jupiter Capitolinus.

and a god whom, &c.] No doubt, Zeus or Jupiter (cf. on Daniel 11:37). It is true, the first three Seleucidae, as their coins testify, recognized Zeus Olympios,—not, as Behrmann (misunderstanding a sentence of G. Hoffmann, Einige Phön. Inschr., p. 29) states, Zeus Polieus,—as their patron; but Zeus was not, of course, a native Syrian deity.

When Hitler came to power...

An irrelevant detour. Where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

Irrelevant to you perhaps, and no need to repeat yourself, but Hitler and his marketing experts used the Pergamon altar in the marketing for the '36 Berlin Olympics, that was televised and dreaded down with nazi banners, beastly athletes and the whole thing was basically Nazi propaganda placing Hitler in Zeus' place. This is insignificant? And how it relates directly to biblical prophecy?

Those camel jockeys were mostly Roman and Greek scribes who wrote the Septuagint and most of NT. Didn't they know about Zeus and Jupiter and how they are basically the same god as Hadad, Marduk, Bel and Baal and others?

Then why didn't they say so? Why didn't they say in the Bible that Zeus is Satan?

Walks like a duck....

Facts? The Bible and Greeco-Roman mythologies are facts to you?

The facts about Graeco-Roman (not 'Greeco-Roman') mythology are facts. It is a fact, for example, that there is a myth about Actaeon and Diana. It is a fact that the myth includes a scene in which Acteon, transmogrified into a stag, is torn apart by Diana's hounds. The scene is fictional, but that it exists is fact.

It's Greco-Roman, lady. And no, not much, if anything, relating to mythical astrology is fact. We can only assume or treat the material as-is. It is considered a historical fact that Antiochus IV Epiphanes saw himself as an embodiment of Zeus and that he erected Zeus idols and performed pig sacrifices in the Jerusalem Temple. It's not a fact that Jason managed to get hold of the golden fleeze. They are allegories and fairytales, esoteric wisdom passed down through the generations. Knowledge about them is everything but factual. The study of mythologies and religion belongs to the humaniora, not the world of facts.

Now, where in the Bible does it say Zeus is Satan?

Among other places in Daniel 11, Luke 4 and Revelation 2 and a few other places. You don't like it. It's not written out in plaintext. Fine.

Zeus' mountain was Olympus, not Sinai.

That's what I said. You, not I, said Satan took Jesus up to Mt. Olympus.

I explained how the Gospel says Satan (temptation scene) is present on a high mountain showing Jesus all his riches, the known world, and also on the wings of the Temple, how Zeus ornaments were found alongside Jahveh on the wings of Herod's Temple. What other god than Zeus/Jupiter fits this description? What other god ruled over "all the nations" of the known world at the time of Jesus? And what other god did Herod honor and place on the wings of the Temple in Jerusalem?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Bible doesn't say straight out that Zeus is Satan.

Right. That's that then. Case closed.

Still, to be civil, I'll respond to your other points.

Where in the American constitution does it say that communism is USA's nemesis?

I am not American, but where does it say anywhere that communism is America's nemesis? Looks like the boot's on the other foot to me.

There are certain things you are left to figure out, you get a few pieces it's up to you to put it together.

Why is that? If Zeus Piter, Top God of the Roman Empire, was in reality Satan, wouldn't it be something all Roman Christians ought to have been told, and told as a matter of urgency? Why all the hints and join-the-dots? To put the authorities off the scent? That's just silly. Pagans weren't more stupid than Christians or anything; they could read between the lines just as well as anyone else. That's no excuse for hiding such important information behind coded messages and riddles. There's no excuse, really.

If you don't like the idea that the gods of Greece and Rome are opposing forces to the Biblical Jahveh or that Greece and Rome were enemies of the Hebrew nation. Fine. I don't see how that is my problem.

It is your problem because you hope to convince people of this idea, and I am not convinced. Besides, I don't really care about it; while obviously, you do.

I don't think you appreciate the important prophetic mechanisms that were at play as the Pergamon altar was moved to Berlin and what significance these events had as to the prophecies of John.

You mean to say you believe this addlepated tripe? Surely you are joking?

the whole thing was basically Nazi propaganda placing Hitler in Zeus' place. This is insignificant?

Not only insignificant but utterly meaningless. Just empty fables of prophecy and doom. Hitler was another addlepate, you know. Most dictators are: simple-minded, superstitious oafs. They wouldn't be dictators if they were anything else.

It's Greco-Roman, lady.

It may be on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but where I and most of the English-speaking world live, it is Graeco-Roman. And I am certainly no lady.

not much, if anything, relating to mythical astrology is fact.

Astrology? Who said anything about astrology?

There are no facts concerning Hercules and Nike I'm afraid.

No? Here's a fact concerning Hercules: the ancient Greeks believed that someone by that name, or rather the Greek equivalent, which is Herakles, killed a terrible wild boar on the island of Euboea. Hercules does not have to have existed to establish that fact; it is a statement about popular belief. If you cannot see the distinction I am making I despair of you.

It's not written out in plaintext. Fine.

Fine. That's all I needed to know. Have a nice thread.

originally posted by: Astyanax

not much, if anything, relating to mythical astrology is fact.

Astrology? Who said anything about astrology?

Hehe. You didn't notice? Haha, sorry, you amuse me almost as much as you disappoint me, but I'll give it a try.

These stories are all based on astronomical observations (as you noted Herodotus identified) and the cyclical drama of the clockwork above. I mentioned Daniel 11. There you can see the Hebrew prophetic approach to the same thing. Since Alexander The Great and Antiochus and these other generals and kings looked to the stars for oracles and transferred the movements of the stars into their own strategies, literally playing out the orders of the Dragon-- Sol, Luna, Venus, Jupiter and the rest, though they called them by different names. Greeks would say Zeus, the Babylonians Marduk or Bel. The Hebrews Baal or Tzedek.

You didn't notice? The fact that these generals and strategoi carried out the "orders of heaven" made them quite predictable, as is illustrated in Homer and Daniel. Oh dear!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

No, this is more addlepated nonsense. Ignorant addlepated nonsense at that. The Greeks named some constellations after some mythological characters, but not all of them. Where are Hades, Demeter and Persephone in the sky? Where is Hephaistos? Why are the twelve signs of the Zodiac not named after the twelve Olympians?

The astronomical obsessions of the Egyptians and Mesopotamians were not shared in the same degree by the Ancient Greeks. The way they 'followed the orders of the gods' as you (erroneously) put it was chiefly through the consultation of oracles. You haven't read much classical literature, have you? It was the Romans, and their contemporaries the Hellenized Egyptians, who were keen on astrology, and even for them it was just one of many different forms of divination in use.

The fact that these generals and strategoi carried out the "orders of heaven" made them quite predictable

Odd, then, that surprise attacks were so often successful in ancient wars. And that the stars and oracles were so often wrong.

Oh dear!

Don't fret. Though I advise finding someone attractive and getting a room. Nonsense of this kind is a bit like acne; a bit of rumpo usually clears it right up.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The fact that these generals and strategoi carried out the "orders of heaven" made them quite predictable

Odd, then, that surprise attacks were so often successful in ancient wars. And that the stars and oracles were so often wrong.

I'm not sure you understood me properly. They didn't make wars to win battles necessarily, as far as Antiochus in my example was concerned he was acting out the will of God, identifying himself with Zeus (that's the god of planet Jupiter) and just like Daniel and his collegues among the Babylonian astrologers and magoi quite accurately predicted wars and battles fought by Alexander and Antiochus and the Ptolomys and the rest of them-- for they "selflessly" carried out the message of the stars in attempts at elevating themselves into godhood and divinity, becoming imortals, As Above so Below. I am not saying astrology works, but it did back then, for the mentioned kings acted out the exact scenarios discribed by Daniel centuries before. It's not mambo jambo, they did stuff like this. And for all we know they STILL do stuff like this.

Oh dear!

Don't fret. Though I advise finding someone attractive and getting a room. Nonsense of this kind is a bit like acne; a bit of rumpo usually clears it right up.

Oh dear! Zink and salicylic acid is better, you don't have to be patronised, shat at and spat at in order to benefit from it. Cheaper too. Ptah!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
You have neglected to answer my post (5 up).

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

They didn't make wars to win battles

No, they fought battles to win wars.

Oh dear! Zink and salicylic acid is better, you don't have to be patronised, shat at and spat at in order to benefit from it. Cheaper too. Ptah!

Right, mate, you stick to your aspirin and tinfoil, and I'll stick with the rumpo.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Pergamon Altar was later used as a model for "the Throne of Hitler", but Adolf wasn't all that impressed with the size of the Pergamon Altar (but he liked the style), so he had his chief architect Albert Speer make a much bigger one more fit for his own caliber, as if to fulfil the prophecy of John the Scribe:

Hitler was not Satan, and this story is cooked-up propaganda. And Hitler did not start WW II, that was the English, who decided to destroy Germany back during WW I. If you were looking for Satan incarnate, you might want to look at the un-holy trinity of Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Pergamon Altar was later used as a model for "the Throne of Hitler", but Adolf wasn't all that impressed with the size of the Pergamon Altar (but he liked the style), so he had his chief architect Albert Speer make a much bigger one more fit for his own caliber, as if to fulfil the prophecy of John the Scribe:

Hitler was not Satan, and this story is cooked-up propaganda. And Hitler did not start WW II, that was the English, who decided to destroy Germany back during WW I. If you were looking for Satan incarnate, you might want to look at the un-holy trinity of Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill.

I never said Hitler was the Dragon. He is the little horn Daniel speaks of.

Looks like it's time for a Revelation 13 repetition:

The dragon (Zeus) gives the beast (Nazi Germany, Daniel's little horn and one of tens extensions of the Empire; it's preceding Romeo-Germanic empires and the other empires I mentioned earlier) his throne (the Pergamon Zeus altar) and his power (up like a lion, down like a fleeze).

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

They didn't make wars to win battles

No, they fought battles to win wars.

Indeed.

Oh dear! Zink and salicylic acid is better, you don't have to be patronised, shat at and spat at in order to benefit from it. Cheaper too. Ptah!

Right, mate, you stick to your aspirin and tinfoil, and I'll stick with the rumpo.

You do that. That thing you advertise means ass in Norwegian btw.