A Clear Presentation of the Gospel

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: Klassified

You studied yourself into atheism.... How does that happen?
How does a faith alone, Bible believing Christian study themself into atheism?
Literally, how is that even possible?
We're told to reject the world, and the wisdom thereof.

Exactly. And we're told to fellowship with believers on a regular basis, and study the word of God. I was never one of those who was satisfied with being able to quote and expound whole chapters of scripture. I studied my bible word for word, on a daily basis, year after year, with lexicons, concordances, and exegesis of the received text. I had a voracious appetite for the truth. The truth was more important to me than my indoctrination.

I don't expect you or any other christian to be like me, but I do expect that you will be open enough to pray to god, and sincerely ask him to guide you into all truth, and not what you have been taught to believe is the truth. If you're going to be a christian. Then endeavor to be more like christ. Not like your indoctrination. Forget what you've been taught, and live as he lived. "Let the greatest among you be servant of all". He came to serve. Not to be served.

Perhaps do a study on love in scripture. Vitriol, elitism, and bitterness have no place in the christians heart. For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

ETA: Just read what you added. Lol. You remind me of me many years ago. Except I did that study on love, and it mellowed me out a lot. Always remember: Your God makes it to rain on the just, and the unjust. And if he can speak through a donkey to Balaam. Who or what else can he speak through...to YOU?

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: guitarplayer

The "non-burning" side of Hell....
Riiiight...

Every OT sacrifice was burned.
We know that the sacrifices were a picture of Jesus Christ.
He didn't need to go preach to the spirits in the "non-burning" side of hell. That doesn't even make any sense.
People have ALWAYS been saved by Jesus Christ. They didn't know his name, or the meaning behind what they were doing, in regards to the sacrifice, at the time, but people have always been saved the same way : Calling upon the name of the Lord. From Genesis to Revelation.

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.
I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord.
I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the Lord.
For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the Lord, and called upon the name of the Lord.
And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the Lord, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.


I don't even know who Kenneth Copeland is.
This is the only interpretation that makes sense, biblically.

Yours sounds like nonsense....

You need to read the bible Jesus went to what was called Abrahams bosom. He did not go to hell.

a reply to: guitarplayer

I've already shown you mine. Now show me yours.
What are you even talking about?

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence

This has nothing to do with Jesus. This is about the rich young man in HELL who sees LAZARUS in Abraham's bosom....which is afar off, with a gulf fixed between them, through which neither could pass to the other side....

You, sir, need to read the Bible.

a reply to: Klassified

I just fail still to understand how my love for people, and my rebuking of sin and false doctrine.... What do those have to do with each other?

Jesus rebuked and told people they were wrong during his entire ministry....

From the abundance of LOVE in my heart, my mouth speaks, that people may not have to suffer eternal torment.

If I didn't care about these people, or possible silent readers, why would I even waste my time?

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: arpgme

I guess.... I kinda toss Islam out of the water considering they deny the Gospel, yet still hold to the base of the Abrahamic religion, which all points towards Jesus Christ. Their "prophet" was a pedophile, as well.

I don't know. The Quran just doesn't ring true as the word of God.

And as you think the Quran "does not ring true to you" some of us here feel the same about the bible as a whole. Humans trying to describe god and failing to make it clear making the bible a test instead of an instruction manual that state everything with a logic on a level that is clear and cannot be miss interpreted. Just like it was meant to be.

There are hidden gems of spiritual knowledge in all religions but you have to dig deep to find them from my point of view.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: Klassified

I just fail still to understand how my love for people, and my rebuking of sin and false doctrine.... What do those have to do with each other?

Jesus rebuked and told people they were wrong during his entire ministry....

Pray for revelation on just that. It will come, and you will see. If you really want that prayer answered, that is. But to answer your question in brief. Jesus rebuked from true knowledge and understanding. Not from indoctrination and sectarianism.
Luke 9:50

So obviously he died. His soul was sent to Hell, to pay for the sins of ALL of mankind. A perfect man, went to HELL for 3 days and 3 nights, bearing the punishment of our sins, because he loved us so much, and wanted us to have eternal life.
a reply to: graphuto

Show me in the bible where it says that Jesus went to hell for three days.

a reply to: graphuto

You said you knew what Sheol and Gehenna were but based on some of your statements I find it a little difficult to believe. Hell as eternal fiery pain has not always been a widely believed or accepted doctrine. Sorry. Do some homework on those early days and the evolution of your religion. There's a lot of fascinating things to be learned.

As for the geocentric model:

About four centuries ago the position of the church was the geocentric model.

These verses imply the Sun has a motion around the Earth:

Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. Joshua 10:12-13

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat. Psalms 19:4-6

The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises. Ecclesiastes 1:5

These verses imply the Earth does not move:

Tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved. 1 Chronicles 16:30

The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved. Psalms 93:1

Say among the nations, "The Lord reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." Psalms 96:10

a reply to: Klassified

He who is not against us is for us.

I fail to see how that relates.
The man in question was rebuking spirits in the name of Jesus. He just didn't happen to be part of their little clique yet.


A person bringing forth false doctrine and teaching is against us, is he not?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Just because their only frame of reference was from actually ON the earth at that time, doesn't necessarily support a geocentric earth model. From their perspective, the statements are still true.

To me, the earth not moving is obviously not LITERAL in the sense that it never moves, physically.
In context, it seems to imply that the earth is HERE, and it's not going anywhere.

As far as the sun and moon standing still, that was obviously a miracle of God.

a reply to: guitarplayer

I've already outlined my position with scripture to back it up.

Now outline YOUR position, with scripture to back it up.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: Klassified

He who is not against us is for us.

I fail to see how that relates.
The man in question was rebuking spirits in the name of Jesus. He just didn't happen to be part of their little clique yet.


A person bringing forth false doctrine and teaching is against us, is he not?

Who is any christian to truly judge false doctrine? "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Let god do the judging. They either believe in christ or they don't. If they do, god is big enough to straighten them out to his satisfaction. Not yours.

ETA:

He just didn't happen to be part of their little clique yet.

Exactly. A clique or sect. Same thing.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Paul towards faith being what matter vs faith by works. Even if he was a person who knew what he was talking about. his words only confuse and distort what spiritual teaching in both the east and the west have said for a long time to be true. Faith without works is dead.

There is no real difference on meta level from Jesus teachings thru James and Matthew, Buddha, Nanak and Rumi or Krishna. Paul is the one who say you need faith his way towards an idol of Christ he creates while Jesus teaches thru James and Matthew to follow him and pay for your mistakes, instead of cheap grace going into heaven like a robber unwanted. I have no need for idolizing when all I need to do is follow Jesus teachings that fit perfectly with all the other blessed ones.

Namaste

According to you Christ died and went to hell for three days. Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with Christ that very day. So you’re saying that Christ lied to that man? You still have not provided any scripture that states that He went to hell.
a reply to: graphuto

a reply to: guitarplayer

Considering that Jesus IS God, that's not hard to reconcile....

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Cheap grace? Are you kidding me? Jesus Christ paid for that grace, and it is by no means cheap.

Your WORKS are cheap.
Salvation is the GIFT OF GOD.

A GIFT is FREE. It's ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR by the GIVER.

It's like someone bought a house for a million dollars, and tried to give it to you. You refuse the gift, and earnestly try to give the man 300 dollars, ALL WHILE INSISTING THAT THE HOUSE IS ONLY WORTH 300 DOLLARS!

YOU are cheapening it.

a reply to: Klassified

Thanks Klassified!

I figured there would be no convincing graphuto, or other people who are adamant in their positions. Still, you never know. Plus there are always others who read these threads and some of them may not be so stubborn or indoctrinated. They may be like you or I were when we first started asking questions. You made it out alright, didn't you?

Plus, I'm not going to lie here... I find a lot of amusement in debating some of these guys. Sometimes the blind frustration and/or shock to things that is conveyed in their responses makes me laugh out loud.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: WakeUpBeer
Just because their only frame of reference was from actually ON the earth at that time, doesn't necessarily support a geocentric earth model. From their perspective, the statements are still true.

Nice try but, what happened to the Bible being the literal inerrant divinely inspired word of God? Unless I'm mistaken that that is your position?

a reply to: guitarplayer

We know that the Old Testament sacrifices were a picture of Jesus Christ.

Romans 10
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

We also know that every sacrifice was BURNED.
If the sacrifices were a picture of Christ, it only stands to reason that he would be burned.

I provided what I believe to be two different verses earlier in the thread to indicate why I believe he went to Hell, aside from the sacrificial picture.
Go back and find them.

Again, you STILL have not outlined your OWN position with scripture, yet seem content to sit here and criticize what I have already outlined and provided my proof text for. Whether you agree with it or not.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

From the perspective of someone who has never used a telescope or explored space, their statements were still true. The sun DOES appear to rise in roughly the same place every day. It DOES appear to set in the same place every day.