A Clear Presentation of the Gospel

a reply to: Akragon
Are you saying you agree with Ghandi?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You attack the teaching of Paul all the time. Yet the Bible tells us how to recognize false prophets. Why don't you show us that Paul is a false prophet based on our teachings?

I'll ignore the rest of your ramblings from the post im replying to... typical Christian crap... and I won't lower myself to your standards...

Read John's letters... he's quite clearly speaking of Paul, not that you would realise that...

Perhaps i'll deal with you another time, I can only take so many insults and or slander from the same person at once.

Approach me about this in a civil manner... because you don't deserve my time the way you did

I have no patience for your idiocy or ignorance...

peace

a reply to: Klassified

yeah I would most definitely say I agree with him on that statement...

Nothing could be more truthful...

a reply to: graphuto

if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul was talking about the idea of righteousness being obtained through the works of the old written Mosaic Law, which would make the gospel "not a gospel", as he puts it, meaning: if that is the only true path to righteousness, then the gospel serves no purpose, since we already had the Law before Jesus even came.

The gospel idea is that we become sanctified through our connection with Jesus, making us in that sense of the word, holy, so that God can be "in our presence", as you put it in the thread's OP.

The implication being that we become the elect by decree to receive the spirit from God that leads us to true righteousness.
So rather than the "giving of himself for our sins" (as Paul says it in your passage from Galatians) being the end, it is the beginning for us. What comes afterwards is what we do with that gift that comes through Jesus (the spirit from God), do we follow it, or do we block the promptings of the conscience that afflicts us of our sins, meant to turn us away from them in order to be like Jesus.

I just read over the thread and realized that I'm an asshole. I'm sorry everyone, especially jmdewey.

I just read over the thread and realized that I'm an asshole. I'm sorry everyone, especially jmdewey.
It was extremely wrong of me to say what I did to you, and I wish I could take it back.

As for the hateful things I said to everyone else, I'm sorry for that too....
I wish I could just delete this thread...

Don't get hung up on it, and make yourself miserable. Learn from it, and move on. We ALL make mistakes. I've made enough of them on ATS for several members. Just ask the mods.

Yeah just as klass said just to add if you preach on ats expect many ex members of your club which includes ministers to show you more than you know about Christianity.

a reply to: Akragon

All that came before me were thieves and liars...

The verse is "thieves and robbers", not liars, and Paul came after Jesus, not before.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

All that came before me were thieves and liars...

The verse is "thieves and robbers", not liars, and Paul came after Jesus, not before.

right... my mistake...

it happens

Wait, when did I say Paul came before Jesus?!?!?

that's just silly

a reply to: graphuto

I just read over the thread and realized that I'm an asshole. I'm sorry everyone, especially jmdewey.

Don't worry about it, and I agree with what Klassified said, that I have done plenty of that myself on this forum.

a reply to: Akragon

Wait, when did I say Paul came before Jesus?!?!?

It's in that same verse, John 10:8,

All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.
(2011 NIV)

a reply to: jmdewey60

Ok... that isn't what I was saying...

it was two different points relating to what was asked of me...

All that came before me were thieves and "robbers"

AND

Paul didn't know Jesus...

More or less removing both the OT and most of the NT... that's what I was getting at...

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus did not go to hell... and said firely place certainly isn't located in the center of the earth LOL

I think that it is, just from my personal experience, it certainly felt like I was in the center of the Earth.
The thing is, if Jesus was in that place, his physical body would have been still lying there in the tomb where it had been left.
What this means is there is a sort of other dimension parallel with the normal one, where people can go in spirit bodies, regardless of what might otherwise be there in the normal material sense.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Yes I recall you saying you've been there... and it would be rather impossible to invalidate your own personal experiences, just as no one can invalidate my own...

The issue is that there is really nothing that says Jesus went to hell... its assumed based on one extremely vague verse...

Now I realise that this is something that Christianity does on a regular basis, but it doesn't make sense either...

Why would he go to "hell"?

the usual explanation is that he went there to preach... as if those that are in hell would listen anyways...

IF the place exists, those that dwell in said pit of despair are there for a reason...

Then again to Christians Jesus is God, so basically God sent people to hell only for God to come down and scold them one more time...after he was executed for doing nothing but preaching the truth...

Sorry but to me this is just another one of the topics that make no sense at all, and are backed by nothing but assumptions based around nothing but a few words...

Though its part of the apostles creed, which the apostles had nothing to do with...

and so on... and so on...

a reply to: graphuto

The story of Job. Metaphorical?

I think so.
If you look at the spelling in Greek in the Septuagint of the names Jacob and Job, you see they are identical except the letters missing in Job compared to Jacob.
Jacob is the other name for Israel, used that way notably in the Book of Isaiah, so the story of Job could be a metaphor for what happened to Jacob/Israel with the Assyrian destruction and the Babylonian captivity.

a reply to: Akragon

IF the place exists, those that dwell in said pit of despair are there for a reason...

If you go by the belief at the time that was written, they were there simply because they had died, where it wasn't according to what developed within Christianity, that this is where people go after already being condemned by the only judgment that they will ever get.
I think that the idea from the pertinent verse is that it should be understood that we have a new judge and judgement to come through Jesus.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Why would we have a new Judge IF Jesus came from Heaven in the first place?

Personally I think the beliefs that existed before Jesus came were all wrong... not even close to the truth...

Even as Jesus said, No man knows the Father but the son...

They were clueless... and after Jesus died some how this belief spread that he "opened the gates of heaven" a place which was inaccessible before hand... save perhaps one or two people... like enoch, who never died... but in reality he died just like everyone else.

Shall we blame Paul? Perhaps... sounds reasonable all things considered, but who knows really

So much myth is spread as absolute truth because its in the good book...

a reply to: Akragon

So much myth is spread as absolute truth because its in the good book...

The New Testament writers were working with the beliefs as they existed at the time, and went from there.
The metaphorical value that was there in that way at the time may not be there today since we believe differently, but we can appreciate the points being made if we take into consideration what they meant to the original audience for them.

originally posted by: graphuto
I just read over the thread and realized that I'm an asshole. I'm sorry everyone, especially jmdewey.
It was extremely wrong of me to say what I did to you, and I wish I could take it back.

As for the hateful things I said to everyone else, I'm sorry for that too....
I wish I could just delete this thread...

No real harm done from my point of view.

When we are shown opposing view and feel like we are different like a dog and a cat then frustration with the opposing view comes naturally and the frustration can be very hard to master. . That is part of duality. One day I might have better control myself and be better at turning the other check myself. I have a long way left it seems.

I wish you find what you seek on all levels. At least I can agree with you that Jesus is a good teacher (a blessed One and therefor connected to "the existing ONE") even if our thoughts differ on Paul:s teachings as told in the bible.

Namaste