A question for everyone regarding immigration

originally posted by: Domo1

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom

originally posted by: Domo1

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
a reply to: Daedal

If you have two people who are going to change the world, why would they have to be in the United States? Maybe they would have better opportunities in another country. Maybe being in the US is a hindrance to their world changing mission. I haven't seen a lot of "world changing for the better" stuff coming out of the US lately.

Oh please. Being in the US is going to give anyone an advantage when you compare Mexico.

Some little genius tucked away in a crapass Mexican city is going to have a much better education and a much better chance of succeeding here.

What about Britain? France? Canada? The Vatican? China? Japan? Lots of countries have many fine educational opportunities. Then there is the opportunity to do the work. Will someone in the US provide the world with a better solution to GMO crops? Not if Monsanto has anything to say about it. Do you see the US becoming a leader in solar technology, or producing a cheap substitute for oil?

The US may be the go-to country if you want to be a lawyer, a soldier, a government employee, a business leader, or a prisoner. But world changing innovation doesn't seem to be our strong suit anymore.

Sweetheart we're talking about the US. The whole point of the OP was the recent events in the US. So that's what I'm talking about.

I stayed on topic. Illegals (from crappy Latin American countries especially Mexico) would have a much better time in many other countries. Again, we are talking about the US.

Will someone in the US provide the world with a better solution to GMO crops? Not if Monsanto has anything to say about it. Do you see the US becoming a leader in solar technology, or producing a cheap substitute for oil?

Wow. You tried to turn this into a GMO debate. Not at all the topic. I'm embarrassed for you.

Do you see the US becoming a leader in solar technology, or producing a cheap substitute for oil?

How is this in anyway related to the OP and the question posed? Pretty sure the US will carry on as usual and spank competition. Apple is worth more than Russia now. We landed on the moon. How's the internet treating you? If you want to have a pissing contest between countries the US will ALWAYS win. It's past your bedtime.

If you had been paying attention, you would have realized that what I was pointing out was that the question, as stated by the OP, was too vague to give a right or wrong answer. The OP did not mention Mexico or Latin American people, it just said 5 million.

Assuming you have two world-changers in a group of 5 million, there is no way to know if the US is the best place for them. The OP doesn't indicate how they will change the world, so it would be the height of arrogance to assume that the US is the best place for every given world-changer to do their thing. Mother Teresa went where she was needed. With our laws, stem cell research might be more productive in another country. Maybe the US would be the best place for them. Maybe being in the US diverts of distracts them from their goal. Maybe they become victims of random crime.

Unless you know exactly how those two individuals will change the world, and you have a crystal ball in your back pocket, there is no way you can say with any degree of certainty where the best place for those two individuals may be.

And I really can't believe you thought I was trying to "change this into a debate about GMOs." I would have thought most people would have understood that the point was that some areas of endeavor might be best pursued in a country other than the US. I guess you're right, maybe it is too far past my bedtime. I could have explained that more plainly, but I thought most people would get the point.

a reply to: Phage

Sounds like a productive member of the community.

He is, for himself and his own. He isnt hiring English speaking college kids or something. He also is fraudulent. He is doing better than he declares to the system and still asks for all the free stuff he can get. I knew a legalized immigrant Dominican man who owned some businesses after a while and still got food stamps...He was not poor by a LONG LONG stretch and his family still got food stamps and everything else because "F the idiots who never checked". He is now in jail.

what's the point of kicking out a long standing productive member of the community. Does this have to happen?

This culture of fraud and hungry self justified greed has to stop. If we dont start to do things correctly things will get that much worse with each successive generation.

This is neither here nor there, but this guy in my first example has kids that are growing up seeing this all. Its wrong to do things that are wrong or it doesnt matter. If it doesnt matter to this world then lets just do what ever the hell we want and lose the farce. Thing is civilization doesnt work like that.

I wont "bust him" because I am not a dick. I tell him he is being a scum bag and shame him when it comes up. He shouldnt get ANY assistance, but I am not God to judge him.

It hasn't been working for a long time. You just pointed out at least 20 years of it not working.

No I pointed out that they never cared to do things correctly in 20 years. As a business owner it would have taken my dad a few months and some letters in the 80s to make him legal. Like I said, all we got was "meh".

EDIT TO ADD:
MY great grandmother took her citizenship test in her late 80s and passed somehow. I remember helping her study as a kid. She didnt even know English past the stuff she memorized for the test... You mean to tell me none of these people could have taken advantage of the system in place in all this time to do things correctly? They didnt care to.

a reply to: tadaman
There seems to be a trend that you think that legal citizens don't engage in fraudulent activities.

I agree that if fraud is being committed the perpetrators should be dealt with, whoever they are. Under the President's order illegals will be, if they apply for "amnesty" and are found to be committing a crime in the process they will be deported. If they don't apply, nothing is any different.

a reply to: Metallicus I could not agree more with Metalicus. If there where two individuals that would "Change the World" in that group. I do not think it would matter where they where living. If they where then they would know what they are doing is illegal and wrong.

a reply to: Ceeker63

It depends though if they actually have the mental capacity to know if what they are doing is illegal. For instance, children, the unborn and those who might be considered intellectually disabled etc. And I say this, knowing that these examples would be taken across the border by their parents/guardians.

And then, that opens up another can of worms doesn't it?

a reply to: Phage

You seem to think that its a meaningful measure of legal citizens compared to illegals who are fraudulent.

Also, its far worse to take advantage of the system if you arent even here legally and contributing at 100%

It is kind of besides the point. That is who people are arguing to stay?

a reply to: tadaman

You seem to think that its a meaningful measure of legal citizens compared to illegals who are fraudulent.

I can't parse that statement.

Also, its far worse to take advantage of the system if you arent even here legally and contributing at 100%

I disagree. Fraud is fraud no matter who commits it.

That is who people are arguing to stay?

I can't parse that statement.

a reply to: Phage

Well, I agree fraud is fraud. Just like breaking the law is breaking the law.

These are ILLEGAL immigrants.

a reply to: tadaman
Yup. Have you ever committed a misdemeanor? Just as illegal as what they are doing if they entered illegally.

a reply to: Phage

NO. Its not just like jay walking or something.

defying a deportation order or the standing laws of immigration and naturalization by entering a second time is a felony offence. These people HAVE visited family and entered the US several times illegally in all these years. Hell, PLENTY went on vacation a few times. Some tried to go back home but would come back for a new car or wedding expenses or what have you. Some became so good at crossing they helped their family members do it. Also a felony.

I pay my tickets and shut up. When I am wrong I dont argue. I may even apologize if its called for. I dont go ahead and do what ever the hell I want and follow only the laws that are convenient.

a reply to: tadaman

defying a deportation order or the standing laws of immigration and naturalization by entering a second time is a felony offence. These people HAVE visited family and entered the US several times illegally.

Then I don't suppose they will be applying for "amnesty" because if there has been a deportation order, well, they're busted.

a reply to: Phage

I and you dont know that.

Records get expunged after a while. It also depends on if they went before a judge or just turned back voluntarily at the border or similar circumstance. If it was a border patrol or such they wouldnt even see a holding facility in some cases and especially not a judge. They would still be deported in the sense that they are kicked out of US territory. They can do that a few times if they are lucky and not be charged with the felony it is.

A formal deportation order would require a judge, but if it happened in the 90s or 80s they are fresh as a babies bottom to the system.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Phage



Also, its far worse to take advantage of the system if you arent even here legally and contributing at 100%

You can be here illegally and contribute just as much. Even though one may be illegal or undocumented, doesn't mean they can't work legally and pay taxes.

a reply to: tadaman
So you're just guessing about it?

Unauthorized entry is a misdemeanor. It is not a crime to be an undocumented alien.
blogs.findlaw.com...

a reply to: Daedal

You CAN contribute but not JUST AS MUCH. You are right, you can NOW contribute taxes and even get a licence. If you are a repeat offender then you wouldnt qualify for such programs....which would keep you doing what has been done for decades.... Fake working papers or tax free cash pay.

a reply to: Phage

I am not guessing.

Repeat offences are felonies

a reply to: tadaman

Repeat offences are felonies

Source? If I am found guilty of multiple misdemeanors they become felonies?

a reply to: auroraaus Auroraaus, I am of the opinion that anyone that comes into America without first doing it the legal way should not be allowed to stay, they need to be deported. No other country in the world allows people to cross over borders without proper visa's, and permission to stay. Here is a example, most Cubans I know that have come to America applied for and where granted citizenship because they went through the system. Why should South Americans and Mexican people be any different?

a reply to: Phage

Multiple illegal entries into the US are felonies. You have to apply for a pardon as your first step in the naturalization process.

Are you kidding? you expect me to post immigration legal mumbo jumbo? HAHA

Good luck with that phage. Nice trick. If you think I am wrong YOU do the home work.

I know because I almost had to file for a pardon for my wife.

Here is this if it will suffice:

Noncitizens prosecuted for an immigration offense are typically charged with illegally reentering the United States. Although any illegal entry into the United States is a criminal offense, illegal entry cases are rarely prosecuted unless the noncitizens had made multiple illegal entries.

justice.uaa.alaska.edu...

Thats FEDERAL prosecutions mind you not state....

a reply to: tadaman

Not true. If an undocumented individual is picked up by immigration and held while a background check is conducted, and it is determined they are not a risk they are freed.

Now if this person files an I-765 form with immigration and the DHS, they are petitioning for work authorization.

If approved, the illegal or undocumented person is then legalized to work and pays into all the same taxes as any legal individual.