A question for everyone regarding immigration

a reply to: tadaman

So I think what we are looking at, is prevention yeah?

You can only have so many dogs, people and barbed wire.

What is the foreign aid spending by the US to Mexico? Is there any way the US can help Mexico keep their citizens?

Apart from putting a bullet between the eyes of a drug lord, that is!

a reply to: auroraaus

Well thats the thing.

As these people come here more and more they create more of a dependency on us and the more that the pool of talent in their home countries is diminished.

I have said it a few times already on other threads that Mexico for example, has LESS immigration to the US at this point. The reason is that their new president and his administration managed to broker an energy reform that yielded LOTS of money. That money was and is being invested into things like free healthcare, education, small loans for start up businesses, food aid, rent assistance, ect.

They can now survive in their country since corruption and organized crime is being fought as well. THAT'S why there is so much cartel activity in part, they are fighting back an organized and concerted effort to curb illegal activities.

I would love for immigrants to be seen with dignity and respect. For them to come as doctors and engineers....professionals. To take a flight here with peanuts and a movie instead of trekking through a desert with hardships like RATS. I HATE that they fry my french fries and make my burgers. What a freaking waste.

The only way that ends is if they start to fix their countries. If they all just leave then that never happens. The hardest working people they have to offer are here cutting grass and raising our kids for a pittance. These hard working people have NEVER been more needed in their home countries. If they are such productive, useful and hard working people, then they NEED to do the most good they can, and they are most needed there making a difference...not here scraping a living.

Thats how I see it.

a reply to: tadaman

You sir, I raise a glass!



See, healthy debate yo!

originally posted by: Daedal
If this is the wrong forum, then please mods move to the appropriate one.



Would this change your mind, and would you feel differently about it knowing this was the case?

Because it is possible that the next great inventor or scientist, or whatever maybe is amongst this group.

So, what do you think?

Since my sister is a teacher who is fluent in South American Spanish-lived there for years with her husbands family, and says that all the kids she tested in her district who came in the recent (amnesty flood of kids) are illiterate, even in their own language - and have very poor vocabulary and understanding of even Spanish beyond a very simple level. Well given that is the word we hear from many districts around the US.
I'd say chances of one of those kids making a huge breakthrough is nearly impossible. Their children maybe, but doubtful because their children will start out behind because of their parents, the third generation there is a good chance a prominent researcher will come along, but we'll all be long dead.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom

What about Britain? France? Canada? The Vatican? China? Japan? Lots of countries have many fine educational opportunities. .

how many of the 5 million that just got granted the amnesty are from those countries?
how many from mexico?

i agree with domo.

the opportunities for some genius would be better here...

of course in other countries it is possible to do great things...to change the world....it does happen but they dont have the same resources in many countries.

look at srinivasa ramanujan.....his story is amazing but it is not common for people from areas lie his..

originally posted by: Daedal
If this is the wrong forum, then please mods move to the appropriate one.

The question I am posing is regarding president Obama's recent executive action regarding immigration, and the some 5 million people he's shielding from deportation.

What if you found out that amongst these 5 million people was one or two individuals that were going to cange the world for everyone, for the better, but you couldn't know who they were, only that amongst them these two people were.

Would this change your mind, and would you feel differently about it knowing this was the case?

Because it is possible that the next great inventor or scientist, or whatever maybe is amongst this group.

So, what do you think?

Erm simpley put.....

THATS WHAT HB-1 VISA ARE FREAKING FOR!

if they are that special then getting a LEGAL visa wont a problem.

Hell USA visa are not that hard to come by if your bright and work hard I have been offerd 2 without even wanting them!

originally posted by: oblvion

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: mugger

I be fairly certain, most in our jails and on our welfare system are not.

Do you think they are in jail for a free ride? Don't those get deported?
How do illegal immigrants get welfare benefits?

phage....come on man...you act sooo smart, and prove it without adoubt in the science forums.
There are many states that give full welfare benifits to illegals...dont be a douche.

You also damn well know they steal and use valid AMERICANS IDs.

Stop playing stupid.....you have long since worn this routine out.

It is both pathetic and boring.
Very soon nobody will listen or even respond to you ever again.


PLZ Sir, you disrespect yourself at your own behest.....it is for naught but the stuff of lesser men than yourself.

You are better, we deserve better from you!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to say I was disappointed in Phage as well. All it takes is one stolen identity, fraudulent papers or an anchor baby. An entire family of illegals can benefit from an anchor baby alone. They save money on food, housing and health care.

a reply to: Grovit

Once again, the question in the original post didn't mention the country of origin for the 5 million. I guess you can assume any country you like there.

My point is, you can't make the blanket statement that for every potential genius, the United States is the country where they will get the best opportunities. For instance, I think Japan would have more opportunities for someone with a talent for robotics. Finland or Germany may offer better schools for a musical genius.

It's easy to find examples where a particular type of genius might do better in another country. And that's when you only consider academics and job opportunities. Other factors like religious, political, economic, or business obstacles, would play a part as well. Religion hampers stem cell research. Politics gets in the way of climate change research. And imagine the opposition someone would face if they were working on Tesla-type free energy in the US.

In the question stated in the OP, it's possible that you could do the world a great disservice by having a particular type of genius stuck in the US. The mathematician that could have worked out all the bugs in String Theory might be stuck writing algorithms to analyze cell phone data for the NSA. The doctor that could have cured cancer might decide that a plastic surgery practice in Hollywood is more lucrative. The astronomer that studied and worked in the US might miss that killer asteroid that could only be seen from the southern hemisphere.

I still maintain that in the question posed at the beginning of this thread, there are too many variables for a right or wrong answer. It's a coin toss as to whether keeping the 5 million is a good decision or not.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
a reply to: Grovit

Once again, the question in the original post didn't mention the country of origin for the 5 million. I guess you can assume any country you like there.

it did however say this

--The question I am posing is regarding president Obama's recent executive action regarding immigration, and the some 5 million people he's shielding from deportation.--

-------------------

thats why i said what i said

im thinking the majority of these 5 million are from mexico, not finland, germany, or japan...

so, yeah

a reply to: Grovit

I thought it was politically incorrect to assume that most illegal aliens were from Mexico or Central America. Has that changed? It's hard to keep up with these things sometimes.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
a reply to: Grovit

I thought it was politically incorrect to assume that most illegal aliens were from Mexico or Central America. Has that changed? It's hard to keep up with these things sometimes.

it very well may be politically incorrect...i dont really care about that

am i wrong in thinking the majority of illegals are from mexico? maybe
thats still what i think

a reply to: Grovit

Well, it wouldn't surprise me if a majority of illegal immigrants were from Mexico. I don't really know, don't really care. All I'm saying is that the question posed in the OP is a flip of the coin if you don't know the potential talents of the two geniuses involved. I don't see how anyone can contend that in all cases for all types of geniuses that the US is the best place for them personally or for the world as a whole.

There are a few issues with all this even if we suggest that most of illegals are hard working honest people.

1. To be undocumented is bad for all. The undocumented worker has no recourse if his employer decides not to pay, or how much, or even abuses. This also opens the door for the undocumented criminal and this makes it extremely hard to get these guys since they are basically a ghost to the system.

2. No matter what people say, jobs are taken away from Americans and wages are artificially reduced. We can all agree that there are jobs out there for the migrant worker, but when the migrant worker is no longer "migrant" they look for other work too in competition with Americans, and will most likely get those jobs since they will provide quality work for lower pay.

3. There is a drain on our system. Schools have more students per teacher, and in CA alone they spend over 7 billion a year on the education of illegal aliens that attend school there. They also spend over 1.5 billion per year on healthcare for illegals and in a state that is 15 billion in debt these are big numbers. Not to mention everyone of them is driving without a license or insurance and someone still needs to pay....

4. As Phage has asked.."no Americans break the law?" And the answer is yes they do too, but do we really need to fuel this more then it already is? Just recently around where I live an illegal girl hit two kids, killed them and took off...They caught her and all she got was probation and 250 hours of community service. Its like the court doesn't know how to handle undocumented workers. Had a guy last week walk into a 7-11 and stab a kid in the chest 2 times, killing him. He came back and the cops shot him. He was illegal and his sister said she doesn't know why he would do it, but if he wasn't here in the first place that point would had been moot. I guess the bottom line is poor people all over have more issues than middle class and so it doesn't help when we artificially add millions more to that equation.

a reply to: auroraaus Let us take a look at recent events. Think back a couple months when all those kids where crossing over from South American countries. All those kids where told to go across. They had a choice to cross or not to cross. Someone gave them the incentive to come here. They made the conscious choice to come here knowing that some would not have anyone to pick them up on the USA side of the border. Others where allowed in because they had a supposed relative someplace in the USA. However, they where suppose to meet again with law enforcement people later on. Many of them did not. Those that did not are here illegally. All those kids where thinking freely for themselves. Some made the wrong decisions to not report back, to authorities. Now America has to support more undocumented illegal children. That is just not right.

a reply to: Daedal



your what if is
countered by billions and billions of dollars wasted on these illegal aliens.

if we deported all illegal aliens, the prisons in several states would have to lay off custody officers.

how is it even possible that illegals can go to school here?

i know it happens but how is that?

when my daughter enters school i need to show her birth certificate, shot record, and proof that we live in the district...


it baffles me that illegals can enter the school system in this country

My imaginative approach. I spent a week in Mexico in 1983. I saw Mexico City, Tacso, and Acapulco. What if Mexico gave the USA the top 150 miles of Mexico, and we start them up with factories, health care , drug people elimination, farming, etc.... The immigrants could go there and be closer to their homeland and families/ friends. Turning a waste of space into a productive organize space. Pushing the boarder south. We would get something for all our resources being drained from them coming North.

originally posted by: frugal
My imaginative approach. I spent a week in Mexico in 1983. I saw Mexico City, Tacso, and Acapulco. What if Mexico gave the USA the top 150 miles of Mexico,.

bad idea...so a bunch of money gets dumped into building up the top 150 miles only for people that want to come to the states to make it to the 151 mile mark...

no thanks

if they have jobs and pay taxes let em stay and deport 5 million welfare recipients. I would rather have 5 million illegal workers and tax payers than 5 million legal bums.