QUESTION to ALL Atheists!

A friendly reminder...

Please stick to the topic at hand and refrain from tossing around personal insults.

Consider this fair warning.

Ok, I'll just say it nicely then Mr. moderator, let this little argument serve as a lesson for all Christians who waste their precious time and yoke themselves with unbelievers, for those who fraternize with the enemy.

Once again...

Please stick to the topic at hand and refrain from leveling personal insults at your fellow ATSers. Seriously, that's all the staff is requesting -- civil discourse.

If for some reason -- and it doesn't matter which side of the fence one happens to personally prefer -- a post or thread upsets you, kindly take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard until cooler heads prevail.

Again, consider this fair warning.

Oh, and if one happens to find a particular post that runs afoul our T&C, please alert the staff. We'll handle it.

Many thanks!

originally posted by: maria_stardust
Once again...

Please stick to the topic at hand and refrain from leveling personal insults at your fellow ATSers. Seriously, that's all the staff is requesting -- civil discourse.

If for some reason -- and it doesn't matter which side of the fence one happens to personally prefer -- a post or thread upsets you, kindly take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard until cooler heads prevail.

Again, consider this fair warning.

Oh, and if one happens to find a particular post that runs afoul our T&C, please alert the staff. We'll handle it.

Many thanks!

Oh I have VERY cool head, colder than ice itself. I ain't the one that "threw the first stone" as my enemy put it, and its always his type that are the first to lose it.

a reply to: BlackManINC

Please check your inbox.

a reply to: mOjOm

Hold on. If that's true and Man Created the Computer but the Man Doesn't require a Creator then this conversation is over.

Things that have semiotics dimensions always imply intelligence our body communicates in such away that DNA has a semiotic dimension that is independent of our minds.(Example protein synthesis)

The reason you know a computer is created(aside from history and observation) is that it functions using binary code.

". Binary Code or Strings derive their meaning from us applying that meaning. "

Exactly, but if one was only examining the code in action it would appear as certain streams had certain functions, and that would cause a person to infer intelligence. We don't have to use a computer we can use the very sentences you are reading. In reality if you were reading these in pen and paper these words would be nothing but scratches on paper, but because you recognize the semiotics behind the scratches you imply intelligence. The same is true for Binary Code or DNA.

They have meaning because we have applied that meaning to them, not the other way around.

I agree, but we didn't apply the semiotics dimension in DNA. It has always existed...its how DNA and the Body function...they function using codes that have semiotic dimensions within the body not our mind. DNA mRNA and a Ribosome communicate using information with semiotic dimension to make a protein.

a reply to: Noinden

Oh dear really? All this effort for this gambit. Ok using your "logic" there is no reason this "creator" needs be a single being. It could be a group. OR it could be none.

Don't really know how your using my "logic" here. You could have a polytheistic belief. We would then have to examine both theologies and see which one is most coherent with reality and history.

a reply to: TzarChasm

"You can't be serious. are you really that oblivious to special pleading fallacy? "

No special pleading nice try though.
Premise 1: Just because something can create doesn't mean it was created
Premise 2: Something only requires a creator if there is a reason for thinking it needs a a creator
I applied both of these equally to God, Humans, and Computers.

So lets go through together:

Do computers need a creator? Yes.
Why? They function on semiotics

Do Humans need a creator? Yes.
Why? They function on semiotics

The next question is where you are claiming special pleading when really you are required to justify your answer and I am required to justify mine.

Does God need a creator? I would say no because there is no reason to think that an eternal being had a beginning.

If you say yes you need to tell me what attribute of God requires him to have a creator. Its not special pleading it just makes the atheist justify there position rather than throwing up an empty claim.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: TzarChasm

"You can't be serious. are you really that oblivious to special pleading fallacy? "

No special pleading nice try though.
Premise 1: Just because something can create doesn't mean it was created
Premise 2: Something only requires a creator if there is a reason for thinking it needs a a creator
I applied both of these equally to God, Humans, and Computers.

So lets go through together:

Do computers need a creator? Yes.
Why? They function on semiotics

Do Humans need a creator? Yes.
Why? They function on semiotics

The next question is where you are claiming special pleading when really you are required to justify your answer and I am required to justify mine.

Does God need a creator? I would say no because there is no reason to think that an eternal being had a beginning.

If you say yes you need to tell me what attribute of God requires him to have a creator. Its not special pleading it just makes the atheist justify there position rather than throwing up an empty claim.

I mean you used some fancy language but essentially you are saying that humans must have been created because they exist and are not eternal. We do not know God exists let alone if he is eternal.

Let's assume for a moment that we were created by a God. How do you know he is the only one? Maybe we were created by a god and there are other competing gods.

How do you know he is eternal anyways? Maybe the reason there are no burning bushes these days is because he no longer exists.

The possibilities for the origins of the universe and ourselves are literally infinite and all of them are far beyond our capacity to understand.

The biggest issue to me with organized religion and Christianity in particular (since that's the one I'm intimately familiar with) is the utter arrogance involved in it.

If there is a Christian god do you really think that his entire being can be summed up in any one book? Do you really think that we are created in his image? The god portrayed in the bible is essentially a human being with amazing cosmic power. You might as well worship the genie from Aladdin.

The presumption, arrogance, and smallmindedness involved with thinking that some being who exists on a level so far above us as to be unfathomable is just like us just defies reason.

That's the core of it. The entire premise of monotheistic Abrahamic faiths just defies any reason. The fact that you are trying to use reason to justify it makes no sense. Either it's utterly true and you believe through sheer faith with no reason or its not true. So which is it?

I know my mom has it the right way. She just believes. She doesn't try to reason about it. She doesn't try to push it on other people. She doesn't try to bring reality into her faith, like many people do when trying to rationalize events in their life as part of God's plan. She just believes. There are no conditions beyond believing in God. I suggest you learn from her truly Christian example of faith and faith alone and stop trying to use reason to convince people of the existence of God. It's a compete waste of time and actually counters the very idea of faith.

I'm assuming that's too much to ask though?

I can't believe I just sunk even further by responding. I'm not even gonna comment in this thread anymore.

About time

originally posted by: TechUnique
What would be proof of God existing for you?

What would have to happen for you to go 'OH.. yeah, ok'

IS there anything that would do that? If God physically entered your room, performed a miracle and proclaimed that Jesus was his son and rose from the dead would you believe it or would you think you were hallucinating? Or would you 'Just know'?

Please answer any and all of those questions, I'm trying to understand the psychology of an adamant atheist.

No hate in this thread please.

I don't know. I could name one specific act, such as conjuring up pink and green pigs that sing christmas songs, but that doesn't mean some other miracle wouldn't do it for me, either. I'd love it if God'd use his power to fix the world, though Then I'd probably believe if it's obvious and undeniable enough, and I might even start admiring him!

(I never quite understood why belief in God also implies admiration of said god/God)

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Premise 1: Just because something can create doesn't mean it was created

okay...

Premise 2: Something only requires a creator if there is a reason for thinking it needs a a creator

...aaaand stop right there. i do have a reason, and its the same reason you think we were created. a perfect being doesnt just happen anymore than we imperfect beings just happened.

Does God need a creator? I would say no because there is no reason to think that an eternal being had a beginning.

if you want to use the eternal argument (heh) you have to prove it. the universe itself isnt eternal. so "might be" or "just is" isn't an answer.

do you know what eternity is? do you know how that applies to something like the universe? can you tell me what the substratum of the universe is? which came first, consciousness or matter? how do you prove that? looks like you have some work to do yet...

a reply to: tavi45

I mean you used some fancy language but essentially you are saying that humans must have been created because they exist and are not eternal. We do not know God exists let alone if he is eternal.

First if the God your talking about isn't eternal its not the same God as the God of the Bible because he is eternal. At no point in time did I pose the argument that humans must have been created because they exist and are not eternal, so you obviously just got confused by my fancy language lol. My argument for the creation of humans is that our genetic code carries a semiotic dimension and therefore implies intelligence behind its creation, just like a book or a computer.

Now it would be up to you to prove the God of the Bible has an attribute that requires Him to be created just as I have done for humans.

Let's assume for a moment that we were created by a God. How do you know he is the only one? Maybe we were created by a god and there are other competing gods.





How do you know he is eternal anyways? Maybe the reason there are no burning bushes these days is because he no longer exists.

Well the God I believe is omnibenevolent omniscient omnipresent and omnipotent. You drop any of those attributes your no longer talking about my God and are attacking a strawman. He is also eternal. Drop that attribute its no longer the same God and again is a straw man. Also, God(the Creator of the Universe) must logically be eternal. If you believe in God or Gods that are not eternal your logic is extremely flawed. Time had a starting point so if God did create the universe he created time.

I believe the Bible and the Bible tells me he is the only one. If you actually held a belief of multiple Gods the conversation we are having would be totally different. We would then have to compare our theologies to see which one synchronized with reality, rather than just discussing whether or not God exist.

If there is a Christian god do you really think that his entire being can be summed up in any one book?

Do you really think an omnipotent being can't reveal himself to beings on a lower level if he chooses to?

The entire premise of monotheistic Abrahamic faiths just defies any reason.

You say your intimately familiar with Christianity but don't know that the Bible advocates the use of reason and scholarly criticism of the Bible.

1 thess 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1 peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

The presumption, arrogance, and smallmindedness involved with thinking that some being who exists on a level so far above us as to be unfathomable is just like us just defies reason.

Well first I don't think the Humans you see now are made in God's Image, but rather Adam's fallen image. Adam was originally created in God's Image then He fell and the rest of man was created in His fallen image. So no the God I believe in is not like us. You want to call me small-minded but you can't even imagine it being possible that an omnipotent being can reveal himself to his creation? If you think that you are obviously the one with a lack of openmindedness.

The fact that you are trying to use reason to justify it makes no sense.

Well this just goes to show that you have never entered a proper philosophical conversation with a Christian. Based on the way your talking its obvious you don't believe in a God. Therefore you are grounded to naturalism and reductionism as a world view. That world view is easily reduced to absurdity using logic. I don't even have to mention God to prove that an atheistic world view is completely absurd. For example an atheist cannot logically explain why they think fire will burn them tomorrow or seconds from now.

She just believes. She doesn't try to reason about it. She doesn't try to push it on other people

Ok well its okay if she just believes but the Bible tells us to have a reason for our beliefs I have already given you the verse. "

"She doesn't try to push it on other people..."

Well then your mom being hypocritical, because the God she claims to believe in tells us to spread the word to everyone. That is actually the main job of a Christian is to ensure that people who don't know of God's grace are aware of it.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The existence of your God is predicated on the Bible? The Biblical God is a liar, an imposter, a murderer and a rapist, who has fear and anger issues as well as a sense of self loathing.

At any rate, HE said, "My spirit won't always strive with mankind", and I haven't seen any "Pillars of Fire" recently, so I'd say HE got run out of town, like Zeus, Odin, Krishna all the other Gods. He's long gone!

a reply to: TzarChasm

...aaaand stop right there. i do have a reason, and its the same reason you think we were created

Well its quite obvious you didn't understand the argument either. I think humans(and not just humans life in general) were created because their genetic code has its own semiotic dimension independent of the human mind. Humans being imperfect and the fact that they aren't eternal has nothing to do with the argument I have posed so you still haven't produced a logical reason for assuming the God of the Bible needs a creator.

do you know what eternity is?

Eternity is the absence of time.

do you know how that applies to something like the universe?

The universe exist within space-time. This material reality had a beginning and science says it will have an end. It is not absent of time and therefore cannot be eternal.

can you tell me what the substratum of the universe is

The substratum, or basic essence, of the universe is energy. Which came first consciousness or matter? Consciousness because matter had a beginning and God was the cause of that beginning.

a reply to: windword

The Biblical God is a liar, an imposter, a murderer and a rapist, who has fear and anger issues as well as a sense of self loathing

I mean are you here to just blabber nonsense ?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

This thread is entitled "QUESTION to ALL Atheists!" As a non-believer I find your posts, justifying the existence of the biblical God to the atheists participating here, to be arrogant, pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

You are arguing that intellect, in the way of mental projections of symbolism, proves the existence of the biblical God. It does not. Furthermore, the biblical Old Testament God is an outdated, irrelevant and immoral evil bastard, whose methodology has been driven out of these here parts!

Christians have replaced the OT god with a kinder, gentler Jesus, who in the end destroys the earth and is just as bloody rotten as the Old Testament God anyway. So all is lost with the immoral, blood thirsty God of the Bible, as far as humanity concerned.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Well its quite obvious you didn't understand the argument either. I think humans(and not just humans life in general) were created because their genetic code has its own semiotic dimension independent of the human mind. Humans being imperfect and the fact that they aren't eternal has nothing to do with the argument I have posed so you still haven't produced a logical reason for assuming the God of the Bible needs a creator.

i dont assume. the logic that leads you to believe in a creator is the same logic that leads me to believe he must also have a creator. otherwise he is the SOLE exception to the rule that proves him. the one big hitch and "oh but he is perfect and eternal and - "

"scientific documentation for that claim please"

but you dont have it. all we have is YOUR OPINION.

Eternity is the absence of time.

unending time is the same as no time at all. was not aware of that.

The universe exist within space-time. This material reality had a beginning and science says it will have an end. It is not absent of time and therefore cannot be eternal.

...what is this, i dont even

The substratum, or basic essence, of the universe is energy. Which came first consciousness or matter? Consciousness because matter had a beginning and God was the cause of that beginning.

well, i eagerly await your proof.

oh. wait. once again, all we have is your opinion. so sorry.