Fast Food in Denmark Serves Something Atypical: Living Wages

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: Xtrozero what do you mean by producer, exactly? If you mean the owners of the corporations....

Producers are people who provide more than take.

Human nature at its leisure climbs mountains, builds pyramids, and creates great works of art. It is your society of capitalistic implied hopelessness that robs human nature of its majesty.

Who provides for all this leisure? The Government? Who then provides for the Government? I have lots of leisure and though I have lived all over the world I'm very happy right where I'm at and wouldn't trade it for any other place.

When people aren't getting enough sleep, food, security, then you find the drive for the path of least resistance. Lastly....61% tax....when you get free healthcare, free education, plenty vacation and family time, maternity and PATERNITY leave, and pay while you do all these things. That makes the majority of that 49% left over disposable income.....something almost non existant in the us.

Where does the money come from? As I said your society might do well like this, obviously Greece could not do the same. In America we have a good number of people that feel they are entitled without giving anything into the system, so your system would fail here.

With all that said I want for nothing and I work for a living.

a reply to: Xtrozero ah, in that case then, all workers are producers, since the businesses make much more off of our labor than they pay us. I personally know that in my various professions (painter, medic, MHT, UST) my work usually bills for at least twice what they pay me.

As for leisure....well, the creator granted us leisure I would say, as in the early days, not a hell of a lot of time was needed to provide housing (once it was built, it was pretty much done), and food (a little hunting in a few hours could provide food for days). this left plenty of time for introspection and thought, which developed wisdom and expansion of consciousness. However, in today's society they have found ways to make us work 40-60 hours a week, every week, just to keep meeting the needs of food and shelter, and distractions for the rest of the time, such as alcohol and football, so we never progress past maslow's first two in the hierarchy of needs. Therefore we never develop past a certain level and never achieve the potential of our humanity in developing the wisdom, compassion, and humanity that is our birthright. sadly, this is why we live in a society where people are constantly vying with the joneses for material gain, getting breast implants and botox, and acting like children into our grandparenting years.

As far as americans feeling entitled and not wanting to put in the work...well, America is a pathological society, where every life has a dollar value, and our worth is measured by our possessions and acquisitions. We don't have the values of community and family, and there is very little real wisdom in our leaders, role models, etc. We are taught that every man is responsible only for himself, and our fellow man is not our responsibility, and we live in luxury and largesse provided by our raping the third world of its natural resources, through the murder of millions and imposition of sweat shops and destructive industry on far away lands, all the while blind of our responsibility for these very atrocities that provide us with our abundance, even to the point where we willingly support our government expanding them further. You want for nothing. You work for a living. And this has been provided to you on the backs of sweating slaves in south America, Rwanda, and china. The diamond on your wifes finger provided by murder and theft in Africa. Your taxes paid for illegal wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc to provide you with the cheaper gas that you rave we have over Denmark. Americans growing up now may feel entitled. They may feel entitled an hour of their labor being worth more than half of what it was when YOU were coming up. And they should, because the profit is still the same. The last generation has just let a select group of society steal it from them all unknowing.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: IWasHereEonsAgo Hm, interesting, thanks for the info. Beef is about the same here, 5 dollars or so a pound of ground beef. Chicken is cheaper...but it certainly is not "fresh" chicken, usually comes from some huge industrial center, and all of it is thrown together there in offal, and pumped with chloride, but it still gets to you with pretty much guaranteed salmonella, so you always have to rinse it off good and cook it well. We live in a 3 bedroom here in baton rouge, la, and its very cheap at 1150/month, 1290 sq ft, but its falling apart, and no maintenance.

Am I reading this right, is your electric bill actually 200 dollars every three months?? Because ours is about 200 a month. Anyway, we are a family of four, me, girl, and two kids, and our food bill is about $500 a month. Though, to be honest, when I was single and making good money, I easily spent $500 a month on groceries myself. Ah, its been too long since I had a good buffalo ribeye

yeah... 200 every three months hehe, to be honest I find that expensive, but I guess you've got it quite worse. Then again, it all comes down to the relationship between what you earn and how much you pay here and there in tax and so on.

Denmark is basically considered salmonella free now, but we are having HUGE issues with our swine production as big parts of the pig population are suffering from MRSA due to weak control of farmers use of anti-biotics.

Anti-biotics are bad in any sense, even the rubbing alcohol we use to rinse our hands, because prolonged used will cause resistant bacteria.
Just this summer 13 people, mostly elders, died from a bad case of MRSA because some company didn't oversee their health situation on the cutting machines. Those people litterally died from eating meatroll sausage

Our cows are in decent health as well. But it is slowly dawning on people here, that both pig and milk are very unhealthy for the human body. Quite ironic since most of us have been brought up thinking that dairy farming is "the Danish way" and so on... Ads will sell you anything, even poor health for a revenue.

So, in that sense, having universal health care is almost a must here. Otherwise we would really be in trouble!


In regards to the OP, about wages. Again we have to look at all things as a whole.... how much are the taxes, what do you have to pay etc.
The easiest way would be to compare percentages of what things cost in relation to what you have left after tax.

- How much is milk a gallon as a percentage of your monthly wage?
- How much is electricity as a percentage of your monthly wage?
- Etc etc.

originally posted by: pexx421
Lastly....61% tax....when you get free healthcare, free education, plenty vacation and family time, maternity and PATERNITY leave, and pay while you do all these things. That makes the majority of that 49% left over disposable income.....something almost non existant in the us.

pexx421 - There are so many fine points you've made in this thread, a veritable pleasure to read. Keep fighting the good fight.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Unless that 61% is paying for your food, shelter, transportation and clothing than the 39% (not 49%) left is not disposable income.

Disposable income is what you have after you pay your fixed charges.

It is also a bit comical that you say it is all free when they are paying a 61% tax rate. It is obviously not free, they are paying for it.

It's clear that paying 61% of their taxes in Denmark for ALL that is mentioned above, nets them a WHOLE lot more than you get in return for the taxes YOU pay in the US. Just stating the obvious.

Food, shelter et al is MUCH easier to pay for, when your country supports you in having higher education in the first place (and thus receiving a higher wage for your efforts), and supports your remaining healthy enough to be employed as well. Not to mention the added bonus of maternity/paternity pay and vacation time that is crucial to a happiness quotient in life as well as creating a solid family unit, where parenting is a valued concept. Appreciating these ideals more, is a win for any society.

It seems like many in these types of threads would rather pay taxes to be able to complain about how the "poor folk" are stealing from their hard-working selves...rather than imagining ways it could be very, very different.

a reply to: IWasHereEonsAgo

Wrong, I'm quite sure we Swedes take in much more immigrants, honestly, you should know this since Danish politicians keep warning us about the stupidity of our policies.

Hell, your political establishment has even welcomed the immigration critics(Dansk Folkeparti) and made them a part of the establishment, something that would never happen here in Sweden.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: Xtrozero ah, in that case then, all workers are producers, since the businesses make much more off of our labor than they pay us. I personally know that in my various professions (painter, medic, MHT, UST) my work usually bills for at least twice what they pay me.

In Greece we see a situation where a large number of the population works for the Government, get the best pay with the least hours/production invested. Governments never get smaller, they grow and grow. It is human nature to want to do better, and so in a Government position where a person's work is not directly tied to any kind of need to make a profit so that the business can continue, it is desirable to give each other raises and not do hardly a damn thing.

My neighbor owned a Quiznos, and he paid his workers a little better than minimum wage. That is what he could afford and still have a viable business. He was not well off, and about a year ago he had to still close up shop and go work for someone else which he now actually brings home more than when he owned his own business.

A business needs to make profit to survive, when one day you run your own paint business there are a lot of expenses outside of wages that requires that 2x charge of what you make. All the supplies, that office girl wage, rent etc all come out of your brush work.

As for leisure....well, the creator granted us leisure I would say, as in the early days, not a hell of a lot of time was needed to provide housing (once it was built, it was pretty much done), and food (a little hunting in a few hours could provide food for days). this left plenty of time for introspection and thought, which developed wisdom and expansion of consciousness. However, in today's society they have found ways to make us work 40-60 hours a week, every week, just to keep meeting the needs of food and shelter, and distractions for the rest of the time, such as alcohol and football, so we never progress past maslow's first two in the hierarchy of needs.

This is a joke right?....

Go back a few decades and our "creator" had us working every waking hour of the day to just survive. Now you can put in 8 hours a day, go buy all the food you need on your way back home, come into a house where all you need to do is turn a nob to get either hot or cold air, cook your food and eat it with electric or gas in less than an hour then spend the rest of the night do anything you choose.

Therefore we never develop past a certain level and never achieve the potential of our humanity in developing the wisdom, compassion, and humanity that is our birthright. sadly, this is why we live in a society where people are constantly vying with the joneses for material gain, getting breast implants and botox, and acting like children into our grandparenting years.

Well once again we really do not need to go back very far in our past when 50 was very old age. Today 70 is the new 50 of what 50 was like even as near as the 1940s. We live longer healthier lives and have the freedom to do as we choose.

We are taught that every man is responsible only for himself, and our fellow man is not our responsibility, and we live in luxury and largesse provided by our raping the third world of its natural resources, through the murder of millions and imposition of sweat shops and destructive industry on far away lands, all the while blind of our responsibility for these very atrocities that provide us with our abundance, even to the point where we willingly support our government expanding them further.

This leads back to the OPs point of working at a fast food place (or any generic low skill/low education type job) should pay a single income living wage, and here you suggest that "We are taught that every man is responsible only for himself", and you are right. This is why people feel that flipping burgers should provide a single income living wage no matter what, but when if you look at the rest of the world and even history very few people live/lived in a single income mentality.

I, at the age of 54 and a lifetime of self improvements have a single income lifestyle where my wife does not need to work and takes care of the house and my two kids and we live a very comfortable life. In my 20s I could not make it on my own so I had roommates. My education and skills were very low, not much to offer the working sector, but I got better and better.

You want for nothing. You work for a living. And this has been provided to you on the backs of sweating slaves in south America, Rwanda, and china. The diamond on your wifes finger provided by murder and theft in Africa. Your taxes paid for illegal wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc to provide you with the cheaper gas that you rave we have over Denmark.

No diamonds in Denmark? BTW I bought my wife's diamond in Russia, but I get your point. To be truthful if we just told Sadam, Iran etc they could do what they wanted but give us gas at $50 a barrel I would bet gas today would be a hell of a lot cheaper. You complain about going into Iraq and not just letting them do as they see fit, but then complain when we do exactly as you suggest with China etc...lol can't have it both ways...

You quote above can be applied to every country in Europe too.... I can't fix other countries and when we try we get Iraqs, Afghanistans... BTW no oil in Afghanistan so you need another theory for that one, but it would be all the same no matter what country. We cant fix them....

a reply to: Xtrozero Ha. No, my brother owned a painting and drywall company, and I did payroll, so I know how it went. He billed the customers 32 an hour for my labor, which he then paid me 16 an hour for. He also billed them for the paint and supplies, so no, that does not come out of what he billed them for my services. He only had about 15 employees, he never had to paint or anything himself, and he made 16k a month profit off of our labor after he paid all his workers....and all he had to do was make estimates, and then go inspect finished jobs. You can bet he was living it up.

My second point was not a joke, I was speaking of pre-industrial era, which describes the vast majority of human history. I have friends from non-industrial, but healthy nations, and he and many others, described to me the differences in our societies, and many remark on the fact that in their land the oldest people are the wisest and smartest around, while here our elder population are not very different from our children. They also remark how in many of their countries there is little to no alzheimers and dementia. Could have to do with our different lifestyle habits as well, but I think there are many parts of our brains and our consciousness we just don't use or even acknowledge exist here.

As to life expectancy, yes, industrial and pre industrial western society was pretty brutal, dirty, and hard. And we have come very far in treatments of simple diseases (if not complex ones), and in keeping people alive well past their age of self care ability. But I would imagine that if you subtracted the 40-60 hour work week, we actually have less free and family time now then we did back then, excluding, perhaps, slavery.

Afghanistan was about gas....it was about the oil pipeline that Unocal wanted to build to bypass Russia, and we wanted Unocal also to get the 400 billion contract to build it. Unocal was run, by the way, by condi rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and hamad kharzai. Cheney stood to make a killing off the deal to as haliburton was to support the construction. My complaints are not necessarily about going into Iraq this time. It is about our whole history of creating and destabilizing the middle east in order to keep our oil profits coming to exxon, BP, etc. Its about destabilizing south America for decades so we can push our cheap consumption of their fruits, veggies, oil, etc. And the same in Africa. Our whole economy rests off of us expanding hostilities around the world to keep their products being filtered through the hands of our corporations so that they get the slice of the pie.

All this is details, and they explain what I am trying to say, but they are so varied that they also destract from the the main point....which is this. 90% of americans are poorer now than they were in 1986, as posted in another excellent article on ats recently. Yet at the same time, the stock market is through the roof, and the top 10%, expecially the top 1% have massively more money than they ever had before. This is a massive shift in power and wealth, and that does NOT come about by "chance" or "hard work" or any other thing that you might mention, other than THOSE WITH WEALTH USE MANIPULATION AND LEGALIZED BRIBERY TO PASS REFORMS AND LEGISLATION THAT STEALS THE WORKERS SHARE OF OUR NATIONAL GROWTH. Our share has been and continues to be STOLEN. Its very simple. If you disagree then please, show how this is not true. Show me how our country has a fair system that equally represents everyone, and is not being abused by those with power to disenfranchise everyone else.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: Xtrozero Ha. No, my brother owned a painting and drywall company, and I did payroll, so I know how it went. He billed the customers 32 an hour for my labor, which he then paid me 16 an hour for. He also billed them for the paint and supplies, so no, that does not come out of what he billed them for my services. He only had about 15 employees, he never had to paint or anything himself, and he made 16k a month profit off of our labor after he paid all his workers....and all he had to do was make estimates, and then go inspect finished jobs. You can bet he was living it up.

My second point was not a joke, I was speaking of pre-industrial era, which describes the vast majority of human history. I have friends from non-industrial, but healthy nations, and he and many others, described to me the differences in our societies, and many remark on the fact that in their land the oldest people are the wisest and smartest around, while here our elder population are not very different from our children. They also remark how in many of their countries there is little to no alzheimers and dementia. Could have to do with our different lifestyle habits as well, but I think there are many parts of our brains and our consciousness we just don't use or even acknowledge exist here.

As to life expectancy, yes, industrial and pre industrial western society was pretty brutal, dirty, and hard. And we have come very far in treatments of simple diseases (if not complex ones), and in keeping people alive well past their age of self care ability. But I would imagine that if you subtracted the 40-60 hour work week, we actually have less free and family time now then we did back then, excluding, perhaps, slavery.

Afghanistan was about gas....it was about the oil pipeline that Unocal wanted to build to bypass Russia, and we wanted Unocal also to get the 400 billion contract to build it. Unocal was run, by the way, by condi rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and hamad kharzai. Cheney stood to make a killing off the deal to as haliburton was to support the construction. My complaints are not necessarily about going into Iraq this time. It is about our whole history of creating and destabilizing the middle east in order to keep our oil profits coming to exxon, BP, etc. Its about destabilizing south America for decades so we can push our cheap consumption of their fruits, veggies, oil, etc. And the same in Africa. Our whole economy rests off of us expanding hostilities around the world to keep their products being filtered through the hands of our corporations so that they get the slice of the pie.

All this is details, and they explain what I am trying to say, but they are so varied that they also destract from the the main point....which is this. 90% of americans are poorer now than they were in 1986, as posted in another excellent article on ats recently. Yet at the same time, the stock market is through the roof, and the top 10%, expecially the top 1% have massively more money than they ever had before. This is a massive shift in power and wealth, and that does NOT come about by "chance" or "hard work" or any other thing that you might mention, other than THOSE WITH WEALTH USE MANIPULATION AND LEGALIZED BRIBERY TO PASS REFORMS AND LEGISLATION THAT STEALS THE WORKERS SHARE OF OUR NATIONAL GROWTH. Our share has been and continues to be STOLEN. Its very simple. If you disagree then please, show how this is not true. Show me how our country has a fair system that equally represents everyone, and is not being abused by those with power to disenfranchise everyone else.

What your dealing with is people who cannot seperate themselves from their perspective. They can only see what's happening from their own experience. I know I don't get it either but for some reason it's very difficult for the average person to take on this perspective.

a reply to: onequestion thanks one question, my friend. It is sometimes difficult to u understand the "everything is fine, move along" crowd. If they still had the option I would place you in my "worthy friend" group. Whatever happened to that and the "worthy foe " status on here? I'd have several New people to add to both.

originally posted by: pexx421
THOSE WITH WEALTH USE MANIPULATION AND LEGALIZED BRIBERY TO PASS REFORMS AND LEGISLATION THAT STEALS THE WORKERS SHARE OF OUR NATIONAL GROWTH.

Did you think what you brother did was wrong? He provided jobs for 15 plus people that none of them were able to do for themselves or others. So you suggest he made 200k a year, great, but I have a point here and I use your brother and the CEO of Boeing, my boss, in my example. First I want to say that the standard employee cost is around 35% of the gross, your brother's was 50% it seems, this is not too good for a company to continually grow and survive.

If your brother did HIS job and got contracts so all 15 of you had work to do, and lets say you all worked 50 hours a week with all the business available, not even talking overtime pay.... That comes to 24k a month gross. Minus 12k for your pay checks leaves 12k for him and RUNNING THE COMPANY, so I think your numbers are off. I'm a manager and I have hourly people that make more money than me, just saying...

So my point is lets say he gave you all 3 bucks an hour raise that would be another $150 a week in your pocket, is that enough to change your life to reaching Maslow's hierarchy of needs? What that does to the other end is increase his cost $9000 more a month, that is a good chunk of money leaving only 3k a month to run the business and live on... See my point? Why didn't you go out and get your own contracts, buy your own equipment and be self employed?

Now my CEO, did great last year and better this year, I have stability for a good while. I think he made 15 million last year...is that a problem to you? It isn't to me... But lets use the same logic of reducing his salary from 15 million to 200k and put the 14.8 million in the pockets of his employees. That would give each employee a whopping $113 a YEAR raise!!!!

Yes, he is taking all that money out of my pocket...hehe I would rather have good leadership that provides me a long term job...BTW the average pay at Boeing is about 80k a year.

So back to the question of why we are poorer than we were in 1986.... After 6 years under Obama it has been extremely bad for most, under Bush I did well, under Clinton I did really bad, and under Reagan I did very good... For me there is a personal pattern here...

For me I work and need no entitlements that my basic taxes should provide, so when jobs are available I do good, period... We can take all the money from the rich and it would not put a dent in the 18 trillion debt...I'm not saying that there are not evil/selfish rich people out there, just like there are selfish/lazy poor people too, but in either case the majorly are not.... But we are talking numbers here and there is not enough "rich" to do a damn thing. Its their job to provide us jobs and one just needs to ask why do the rich not have enough jobs available for us? During these last 6 years it is easy to guess...also when the cost of living goes up 30% over all these last 6 years, employers can not keep up with it in pay, but we are now seeing $10 or more an hour minimum wage in many places.

I do not, will not ever, work for Walmart, or even shop there....so a company like evil Walmart can do whatever and it has almost no or little affect on me. When Obama screws up I see it everyday in my cost of living and my lower pay increases due to the company not growing.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Their tax rate really isn't that much higher than ours and they get a lot more for it. Once you add up all the taxes in the US: Property, Income, Sales, Gas, and all the rest how much are you really paying? I bet it's close to 50%. So you're paying 50% and getting virtually nothing but they're paying 61% and getting a lot.

Your shifting the goal posts again. Their VAT tax is 25%, I did not include gas, which is 3 times the price there and their property taxes are higher. We are comparing straight gross income versus cost of living, they take home more on minimum wage but pay it all back in taxes and higher prices for goods and services.

You would be surprised at how little. My income is roughly $750/month with a rent (that includes utilities) of $500/month. That qualifies me for $60 in food stamps according to the great state of Ohio. Our support systems do not support the poor, they support people with kids that they can't afford.

Your anecdotal employment is irrelevant as your are part time.

originally posted by: pexx421

Very well done at completely avoiding each point. Hospital costs are NOT generated by government involvement.

Really? And the regulations and costs that force doctors to sell their private practices and be absorbed into the hospital system are derived from where?

Insurance is a scam. I pointed out that in the us, 45 cents of every dollar spent in healthcare goes to insurance companies. And the insurance company does not suture a wound, compound a drug, or talk you through your problems. That's what I mean by "they contribute nothing to the healthcare"....all they do is make it 45% more expensive. This is not your case? I don't even know what that means. it certainly doesn't address the point.

If insurance is such a scam why does the government want to give to everyone for 'free'? I would personally prefer a health savings account but we, as adults, are apparently not responsible enough to handle our own issues and need our nanny, Uncle Sam, to brush our teeth these days.

When I then point out that the government represents monied interests you state that people are also contributors. But every recent study has found that voters have almost zero say in legislation and government, while corporations get just about everything they ask for.

Post your 'recent surveys'. This Tuesday there are numerous referendums on the ballot at both the local and state level. These become legislation if passed. Maybe you should try voting more enough instead of bitching about it.

lastly, most businesses may have profitability for a goal....but not all of them are willing to pursue that goal at the expense of human lives and dignity. Certain corporations are completely willing to allow their actions to cause cancers and other illnesses to the populations that live near their industry. Some are willing to lie, and sell thousands of vaccines infected with live HIV because they don't want to lose the profit of the vaccines they already made. Some are willing to sell medications proven not to work, some are willing to employ children in slave-like conditions.

Examples please so we can see if they were prosecuted for their criminality.

If you don't want to help, if you don't want to secure the future of your descendants, that's fine. But don't try to undermine those that do.

And what are you doing besides crying on an internet forum about how much better it is to pay more taxes in Denmark? Frankly, YOU are the problem. I do not want more taxes I want LESS taxes. Taxes feed the bloated and corpulent government which is what drags society down to the basest level. Government wants parity, not entrepreneurs.

originally posted by: IWasHereEonsAgo

This is the way of a peoples who actually give a # about eachother rather than just ourselves.

I happily pay those taxes.... HAPPILY. Because its secures the life and well being of me, my family and friends.

Well then, that is the difference between you and me. I do not want to be a mooching slug and have other people wipe my ass for me and would rather handle my affairs myself because, honestly, I am better capable of doing so than some giant, bureaucratic machine that is in the business of keeping itself in business.

European style Socialism that inspires mediocrity is not my idea of a life or society that I want to be a part of otherwise I would have moved there by now and joined you in leeching off of my neighbor.

originally posted by: MoonBlossom

It's clear that paying 61% of their taxes in Denmark for ALL that is mentioned above, nets them a WHOLE lot more than you get in return for the taxes YOU pay in the US.

Just stating the obvious.

Bragging about how high ones taxes are is an absurd intellectual argument. There is a reverse analog to the size of government and the amount of freedom for its citizens. I do not want to reside in a nanny state.

Food, shelter et al is MUCH easier to pay for, when your country supports you in having higher education...

You are buying a bill of goods. Not everyone should or needs to go to college which is now, itself, a huge money making business supported by the government's historically, and insanely low, interest rates.

...in the first place (and thus receiving a higher wage for your efforts), and supports your remaining healthy enough to be employed as well. Not to mention the added bonus of maternity/paternity pay and vacation time that is crucial to a happiness quotient in life as well as creating a solid family unit, where parenting is a valued concept. Appreciating these ideals more, is a win for any society.

How many full time workers that you know do not get vacation or state-mandated maternity leave?

Understand that the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 guarantees a new mother up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave if the company has more than 50 employees for at least 20 weeks of the year. The employee seeking the leave has to have been with the company at least one year. FMLA

It seems like many in these types of threads would rather pay taxes to be able to complain about how the "poor folk" are stealing from their hard-working selves...rather than imagining ways it could be very, very different.

What does that even mean?

a reply to: buster2010

Oh please, you have no clue what it's like living in Scandinavia. This article paints a nice brush over it all, but in reality I know people who are living in poverty in Denmark and Norway. Not always does the "government pension" cover you, and if it does it depends on which community you're located in.

I know plenty of people in Norway, Sweden, and Denmark (I reside currently in Norway) who are having a hard time keeping their head above water who are working and are disabled and literally cannot work.

a reply to: Xtrozero First off, you cannot make that assessment because I only told you what he billed for each persons labor, but that wasn't the whole cost of the jobs. Yes, I know for a fact what his personal income was, and I was correct at 16k a month. My point wasn't that he was charging a ridiculous amount, it was that bumping up the workers pay a little would not necessarily put a company out of business. You ask how much 3 an hour more would change peoples lives...well, its an extra 480 a month, and for some people that would help immensely, perhaps be the difference between making ends meet, or just going more into debt each month. Is it enough to help us achieve self actualization? No, because that is a different issue, and no matter how much you make here in the US, people don't have the time or social structure, generally, to focus on personal growth. Or if they do, they think focusing on personal growth means making more money, or working out.

As for your anecdotal assessments of national growth, no, the income gap has been expanding under both republicans and democrats, because its not a partisan issue. They all work hard to sell us out to the corporations, and all have contributed greatly to tearing down worker protections, pushing down wages, and deconstructing the very things that created the American middle class. I don't know what jobs you had during different presidencies, and I am not really talking about comparing what your personal situation was at different times. I am talking about people in the same position, as time goes on, making less.....as in nurses make less now then they did back then. Burger flippers make less now then they did back then. Mechanics make less now then they did back then. Plumbers make less now than plumbers made back then. Like that. Walmart has more money than it ever did, and yet pays its people less and gives them less benefits than it ever has. They are an example, but you can put many in its place, Automakers, hospitals, whatever.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus I am speaking of the ridiculous costs to patients. And yes, there are regulations they have to meet, but most of those regulations have been forced into place by businesses that want to reap profit off the medical industry. You go to the hospital for bumping your head, you are likely to get all kinds of exams and labs you don't need.....why? So the insurance companies, pharmaceutical groups, etc can get their cut of your visit. They send you a bill for a ridiculous amount, that is not based off of any real factors, you say you cant pay that much, and then they pressure you to get as much money out of you as possible, close to that amount. They know that medicare will only pay 1/4 of it, and insurance will only pay 1/3, so they take what they think the actual cost should be, and then usually multiply it by 4, which screws people who don't qualify for medicare but cant afford insurance.

Why does the government want to give everyone insurance? Because as I stated many times, the government is the executive arm of business. Business owns the government, and so the insurance companies paid massive amounts to get this legislation passed because it brings them a massive amount of profit. I thought everyone knew this? People wanted single payer system, instead they got this which is the opposite of a single payer system. The insurance companies helped WRITE this legislation....now why would they do that? The same reason the pharmaceutical corporations wrote the medicare expansion act.....to force people to buy their crappy product by government mandate. So tell me again who our government works for.

As for voting....what an illusion you labor beneath. You are allowed to vote, true. On things like what your states official language should be, or whether gay people can marry, or if MJ should be legal. What you don't get to vote on is anything having to do with government or corporate agenda or profit. You don't get to vote on whether we go to war or not. You don't get to vote on the banks bailouts. You don't get to vote on OBAMACARE, or the medicare expansion act. All these KEY profitable issues are kept well and truly out of your hands. Yes, you can have some effect on the local level....but money will still trump you.

As to examples of corporations criminality....well, about 7 years ago bayer had thousands of vaccines polluted with live HIV. Our congress told them they couldn't sell it to americans....so they sold them to people in Europe and south America. Shell was responsible for polluting massively along the amazon, poisoning the water and food sources for the tribes down there, and causing high cancer rates. Our corporations had been dumping chemical and nuclear waste off the Somali cost for years, which destroyed the sea life there which was the main industry of the peoples. They begged the UN to intervene many times, and everyone ignored them. After their livelihoods were destroyed by our destruction of their water fauna, they became pirates. And then there are statin drugs, one of the biggest scams ever. The largest sold drugs in the US raking in billions of dollars annually. And yet in studies they only reduce total mortality from stroke by .01%....and at the same time they increase mortality due to liver failure by .01% Every year there are new drugs being pushed out, VIOXX, etc, that later on its leaked the research found them to be dangerous and ineffective. These are just a few examples.

Lastly....its not government that eats all your taxes. Its big business. Every bit of tax taken from you is winding up in the hands of some corporation or bank. They like this, they lobbied for it! You wonder why your taxes increase? Because the very companies that you value as "job creators" are also legislation creators, and the government is the tool they use to steal the taxes from you and take them for themselves. What am I doing other than crying on an internet forum? Spreading the word. One mans actions don't start any revolution, it requires the right circumstances and the right time. Productive and drastic change never started with a single person in a pacified society. It is only when conditions are truly critical for all that a new page can be turned. That point is not here yet, Im just trying to shed a little light on the truth, to counter all the BS propaganda put into peoples minds by the constant deluge of how our great nation is the beacon of light in a dark world, and how business has all the answers anyone needs, and that greed is the best motivator. As if greed can ever transform into or coexist with love and compassion. It is the antithesis of these things, and our society is a stark reflection of it.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus Seriously, your ability to judge the value of all Europeans and paint them as "mediocre" is amazing. I must admit, most Europeans I have met have been far more educated and cultured than the majority of americans I know. Most of them also know far more about our history than we do, and a lot more of our politics.

Also interesting that you talk about the size of government and the freedoms, as most Europeans have much more role in their governments, that are much smaller than ours, less intrusive in their freedoms, and according to you, socialist nanny states.

Lastly, we didn't say maternity and paternity leave...we said PAID maternity and paternity leave. Massive difference there, and if you don't get it, I am not spelling it out for you.

a reply to: Auricom I understand we all think our areas have poverty....but I think there is a difference. I don't know what your poverty is like.....but where I grew up, poverty was generation after generation growing up in a dilapidated home where no one ever went to school, the house had often not had utilities for decades, 7-8 people living in a home where no one had ever had a job, and every meal came in a bag or box. Malnutrition, depression, drugs, etc. We had a crack house on the corner, and prostitutes around the block. It was a great environment, let me tell you. Heard gunshots most nights, had bars on all the windows and doors. To add, in my city, about 30% were under the poverty level, and 12% were under half the poverty level. The median income was 14000 a year.....which is about, what, 70000 dkk?

originally posted by: pexx421

I am speaking of the ridiculous costs to patients. And yes, there are regulations they have to meet, but most of those regulations have been forced into place by businesses that want to reap profit off the medical industry.

Really? Businesses want more regulation? You are good at coming up with scenarios by have yet to link any examples for all your hypothetical situations.

Why does the government want to give everyone insurance? Because as I stated many times, the government is the executive arm of business. Business owns the government, and so the insurance companies paid massive amounts to get this legislation passed because it brings them a massive amount of profit.

No, it makes them less profitable, that is why they will be coming to Congress and the President looking for an industry bailout like the automobile manufacturers and banks did.

As for voting....what an illusion you labor beneath. You are allowed to vote, true. On things like what your states official language should be, or whether gay people can marry, or if MJ should be legal.

And this is a bad thing?

What you don't get to vote on is anything having to do with government or corporate agenda or profit.

I most certainly do have that capacity along with everyone else that votes our representatives in or out of office.

You don't get to vote on whether we go to war or not.

You do realize this is a representative republic and not a direct democracy, right?

As to examples of corporations criminality....well, about 7 years ago bayer had thousands of vaccines polluted with live HIV.

A German company operating overseas? Why is that relevant here?

Shell was responsible for polluting massively along the amazon, poisoning the water and food sources for the tribes down there, and causing high cancer rates.

A Dutch company operating overseas? Why is that relevant here?

Our corporations had been dumping chemical and nuclear waste off the Somali cost for years, which destroyed the sea life there which was the main industry of the peoples.

Which ones?

Lastly....its not government that eats all your taxes. Its big business.

Is that so? 70% of my property taxes go to the school budget which is mostly salary, benefits and operating expenses.

The majority of our federal taxes go to social programs.

You really need to stop making things up.