Fast Food in Denmark Serves Something Atypical: Living Wages

a reply to: Aazadan

Out of curiosity what is your college degree in?

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Aazadan

Out of curiosity what is your college degree in?

Associates degrees in Game Design, Computer Graphics, and Web Programming. Bachelors in Computer Science. Currently working on another (and final one) in Simulation/Game Engineering. My job is creating software for an engineering company, I'm at the bottom of the totem pole in an area of severe economic depression (it's the poorest area of the country) which partially explains the wage but... that also means I can attend school cheaply so that I can get the education to make my dreams a reality (those dreams happen to need a lot of skills and it's more economical to learn them than pay others for them). I'll be damned if it doesn't tick me off though that jobs which require cutting edge tech skills and degrees only pay minimum wage... my previous job was the same way.

The point being, in our current economy a degree does not get you a job and it does not get you a wage. I know a lot of programmers who work at pizza hut. In my case, I have a lot of skills that are in demand in some of the hottest jobs in the country but at the same time I am competing in a global market. Digital skills can be worked on collaboratively from anywhere, and in programming especially unless you're in a tech mecca like Austin or San Francisco you're competing with people in India who will work for $1/hour. Companies know this, and they outsource.

Like I said earlier, if you're relying on a business to pay you a fair wage it simply isn't going to happen. A job brings about X revenue to a company and they want to make a profit on your work. That means that while your job is worth X you're only ever going to be paid a maximum of X-profit. Not everyone can own their own business some people simply have to be employees for the system to work, but I sure would like to see the trend of businesses consolidating into mega corps reverse. Smaller businesses mean more competition and less of a concentration of power.

originally posted by: pexx421
Do you not realize that with every generation now, there is less opportunity than for the one before? Do you not realize now that America has less social mobility than it had in the past, and much less than most of Europe? Do you not realize now, that people performing a job today will get less real compensation than a person performing the exact same job 15 years ago? And that 15 years ago it was less for that person than for someone 25 years ago?

I agree with a lot of what you say here and I would like to see it change but I want to bring up a couple of points. As technology evolves doesn't it make sense for the older skillsets to be worth less? To give an example look at the value of knowing how to make buggy whips in 1890, 1900, 1910, and 1920. Is it a bad thing that the buggy whip manufacturers peaked and then declined in demand? Similarly knowing how to build websites was much more marketable in 2010 than 1990.

Do you not realize that over the last 30 years corporations and executives and shareholders have used manipulation, bribery, lax immigration policies, outsourcing, specifically in an attack on the middle class to force the workers share of profit down, while driving their own up (not through more productivity, but from stealing it from the workers)? Because, I have to say, all of your posts sound like you are ignoring all of these facts. Please just answer those questions.

We've been on a decline since 1967 but a large part of that is due to the rest of the developed world rebuilding from WW2. The real problem in my opinion came about due to the combination of deregulation throughout the 80's and the change to how CPI and by extension the inflation rate have been calculated since 1982. The current corporate atmosphere is in the wrong, but they're simply a product of the environment legislation has created.

Less and less people are doing so. So my question now is.....are people being born now just less intelligent, strong willed, hard working than you? Because if you think that is the case, I can point you to many other nations where everyone is stronger and smarter than you, and show that they experience detrimental social change that affects the vast population as well.

Every nation doing better than us is utilizing economic protectionism to some extent. They're limiting outsourcing, they're taking on wage stagnation, and they're making major investments in the future with low cost education. What the US is trying to do is have our workers compete with the workers of undeveloped countries with low costs of living compared to the rates in the west. That's simply not an area where we can compete and we're foolish for trying. We as consumers are partially to blame though. If you demand the lowest possible prices you are also essentially demanding the lowest possible wages. When we allow corporations to hire people outside our borders that then craters the wage everyone earns while only marginally reducing the price.

originally posted by: pexx421

Lastly....61% tax....when you get free healthcare, free education, plenty vacation and family time, maternity and PATERNITY leave, and pay while you do all these things. That makes the majority of that 49% left over disposable income.....something almost non existant in the us.

Unless that 61% is paying for your food, shelter, transportation and clothing than the 39% (not 49%) left is not disposable income.

Disposable income is what you have after you pay your fixed charges.

It is also a bit comical that you say it is all free when they are paying a 61% tax rate. It is obviously not free, they are paying for it.

a reply to: Aazadan

My job is creating software for an engineering company,

cutting edge tech skills and degrees only pay minimum wage

I'm a little confused , you say you are getting minimum wage as a software developer?

I happen to be in the software industry myself , and I have yet to see anyone that is actually a developer get paid minimum wage?

The point being, in our current economy a degree does not get you a job and it does not get you a wage.

True ,that is a tool set that helps you get a job.

I know a lot of programmers who work at pizza hut.

Like I said I'm in the industry and I have yet to find one ?

you're competing with people in India who will work for $1/hour. Companies know this, and they outsource.

Some advice, a programmer can replace a programmer but not a programmer that specialise in a certain area like asset management or financial management , or databases, etc.

Those are critical fields in the business world.

Gaming is an area from what I understand that does not pay well because everyone out of college wants to do it. So they are flooded with demand.

Hence, if you want to make money and make yourself valuable in the business world, use your programming skills but also specialise.

If you can't get into the industry than I suggest to try to intern or get involved in a co-op program.

Best of luck.

a reply to: AlaskanDad

Maybe you should do more research before jumping to conclusions, the cost of every day items are higher than the USA same here in the UK if something costs you $200, here it will be £200 which is more like $320 at today's exchange rates also in the UK and most of Europe we pay a lot more for petrol/diesel etc.

For example where I live diesel is £1.25 a litre so $9.00 a gallon at today's exchange rate.

a reply to: Aazadan Thank you for your reply to my questions, azadan. To discuss your responses, first off we are not talking about decrease in wages as a skillset becomes obsolete. What I am referring to here is that a burger flipper now makes much less than what a burger flipper made when I was a kid. A minimum wage job when I started working in 93 (prep chef) made 4.20 an hour, which was enough for about 4.5 gallons of gas. A minimum wage worker now makes enough for about 2 gallons of gas. We are talking more or less similar positions, where you are working your butt off, but now you get less return on it. Nursing 10 years ago started at 25 an hour. Now where I live it starts at 18.50 an hour.....and that 18.50 today is the equivalent of about $10 from 10 years ago. I don't think there is any profession that has opened up that has made nursing obsolete. In this way, similar positions that have not been replaced, but the wages have been driven down, while the profit the hospital or company, or whatever, rakes in has increased. More money is being made....the only shift is in who's pocket it ends up in.

Now, your next point supports mine. Deregulation, how CPI is factored, outsourcing, these are the tools that the business class has used to manipulate and justify how much of the profit goes to them vs the workers. They use money to bribe legislation, and talking points to excuse the shift of wealth from the workers to themselves. Its not that the companies are making less money and so the workers take a hit, though that is the talking point. In fact, stocks are soaring, and corporate profit is at an all time high.....but through exploitation of the system, the business owners have made sure that all the increased profit has been hoarded by them, not shared out among the actual producers of it (the workers). And they are not an environment that legislation has created, quite the opposite. Legislation does not happen in a vacuum.... THEY pushed to create the legislation. Your last point supports mine as well. Those nations that utilize economic protection, limiting outsourcing, providing low cost education, are more accountable to their people. They are choosing to put their peoples needs ahead of the profit for the few. Here the opposite is true, our government is accountable to those footing the bill for them to get into office, and who they accept bribes and kick backs from. So they pass the legislation that provides companies with cheaper labor (destroying our labor), with a massive labor pool (pushing down labor costs further, and instilling a sense of desperation which allows more exploitation and abuse of workers), and more profit to be taken by the wealthy (who's household income has risen massively over the last 8 years) rather than the subjugated workers (whos situation has drastically fallen over the last 8 years).

This is my whole point. We live in a system with a declining opportunity and standard of living, not because of lack of money in the system, but due to manipulation of the system by a small wealthy group. It is one thing to continue to work hard and try to get ahead (this is what everyone should do in any time period), but to ignore these truths, and to ridicule those who point them out is doing a disservice. It needs to be recognized, it needs to be addressed. Many examples should be made again and again, of where better social practices, fairness to workers, limitation of corruption of officials by corporations, etc....the more alternatives people see the better, so they are better informed of what kinds of changes could be made here. To brow beat people because they RECOGNIZE that life could be better here, and want a fare share of the profit based upon their part in creating it, is wrong. No one browbeats the corporations for manipulating currency, for forcing people to bail them out, for creating farcical statistics on labor, CPI, inflation to keep wages low, all so they can steal more profit. That is the real crime, that is the real immoral issue, not people struggling for survival and NEEDING more, rather corporations already massively wealthy, TAKING more.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus Ok, so the person working a fast food job for $20 an hour in Denmark makes 3,200 a month. Then deduct their income taxes which are about 40% for the lowest bracket (8% for medical program, 5.8% for income tax, average 25% local income tax) which puts them at right about 2000 take home a month. WITH no medical bills, and no education costs.

Then we have the American minimum wage worker. Wages $7.40, so, gross pay is $1184 a month. Taxed at 15% that leaves them with about 1000. So the worker in Denmark has double the take home pay. And they can get sick whenever they like without setting them back a week, month, or decade. And they can easily pursue education (and get paid 1000 a month while doing it without working) if they ever get tired of making their measly 40,000 a year minimum wage, in order to better themselves.....all school and study, no having to work and stress, not deprived of sleep? No wonder more of them get an actual education.

Yes, their costs for things are higher there, but with 100% more income in their pocket, and prices there not being double what they are here.....I think they are still better off than their American counterparts....even before you take education and healthcare into account.

And yes, I know its not "free". its paid for by their taxes, which again, as I pointed out before, at least they get something back for the taxes THEY pay. We get more wars and richer politicians and corporations. At any rate, maybe when I say their healthcare and education are "free" what I mean is they are free of exploitative costs and profiteering.

Oh, and by the way, the Danish lowest tax bracket (40%) applies to all people making about $71000 a year and below.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus Ok, so the person working a fast food job for $20 an hour in Denmark makes 3,200 a month. Then deduct their income taxes which are about 40% for the lowest bracket (8% for medical program, 5.8% for income tax, average 25% local income tax) which puts them at right about 2000 take home a month. WITH no medical bills, and no education costs.

You left out the 6% medical tax for your hypothetical earner. Rework your numbers, you are now down to $1,748. With the cost of living being 1 1/2 more expensive on a conservative average and using your figure of $1,184 for the American worker, you arrive at an adjusted figure of $1,500 versus $1,748.

Then we have the American minimum wage worker. Wages $7.40, so, gross pay is $1184 a month. Taxed at 15% that leaves them with about 1000. So the worker in Denmark has double the take home pay.

You are omitting the fact that an American adult worker making minimum wage is also eligible for government assistance for food, housing, telecommunications, internet and additional subsidies.

And yes, I know its not "free". its paid for by their taxes, which again, as I pointed out before, at least they get something back for the taxes THEY pay. We get more wars and richer politicians and corporations. At any rate, maybe when I say their healthcare and education are "free" what I mean is they are free of exploitative costs and profiteering.

I firmly feel that profitabitlty and a diverse market compel producers and providers to offer more competitive rates on goods and services. The government is a de facto monopoly.

Oh, and by the way, the Danish lowest tax bracket (40%) applies to all people making about $71000 a year and below.

It is 46% as I pointed out and frankly, if the Danish want to piss their money away to be swaddled in government 'security', then that is their prerogative.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus did you miss it? Its 8%, not six, and its already in there.... "8% for medical program", so no, your whole post is invalidated by this, as it stands where I put their salaries. 2000 a month take home for micky D's, and 40% tax for those making under 71000 a year. Secondly, yes, a bare minimum wage worker at 7.40 an hour MAY qualify for food stamps, as long as his net take home pay is under 956 a month. But I have not known any who get housing, phone, or internet subsidies. And if you are making just 25 cents more than minimum (and FYI there are many more jobs paying slightly above minimum than there are jobs paying minimum), then you don't get snap either.

Anyway, profitability and diverse market creates competitive rates on goods and services? Is that what you see here in the US? Cause that's where I live, and what I see is we pay more than double the next highest countries rate for 32nd class healthcare. I don't know how that demonstrates your theory, but if that's what you are going for, then you can have it. I would prefer their version (and most of the rest of the developed worlds) of higher class healthcare available for the majority at a massively reduced cost. You complain about them spending 8% on their healthcare? Well, the median health plan in the us sits now at about 12000 a year per person. That is what, about 50% of the median americans salary (27000 a year is the median income) after taxes. And it comes with big deductables, co pays, and lower limits each year.

Lastly, they are not "swaddled in government security" as you put it. The people there are active participants in their government, who used it to enact the programs they want that benefit themselves.....As opposed to here where we have allowed our government to become a tool for corporate greed and power, with almost no citizen representation going on. Their way is how its SUPPOSED to work. The government is supposed to be a collective tool to execute the will of the people, working within the constraints that the people chose to impose, and enacting social policies that the people think will be beneficial to their society. SURPRISE! I know that's a shocker to many here in the US where government seems to be something that all people must constantly fight against, that is trying to amass power, and steal all our hard earnings. But guess why our government is doing that? Because we don't run it. And guess who does? you know the answer. Ive stated it time and again. Those wonderful companies that you think will self regulate with "enlightened self interest" who are compelled by profitability and a diverse market to offer competitive rates on goods and services. Of course, they would never engage in price fixing, would they? Or creating artificial scarcity to drive up profit? Or manipulating markets? Or creating monopolistic oligarchies to secure their own future while preventing others from becoming competitors? Or push for war in other countries to steal their resources at the same time they steal our tax dollars to rebuild those countries afterwards (with their own privately owned construction companies in no bid contracts)? To push legislation taking away peoples rights to negotiate pharmaceutical prices so our programs have to pay whatever the company asks (under Billy Tauzin LA-R who then got a multi million dollar contract after his term to work for said companies)?

originally posted by: pexx421
did you miss it? Its 8%, not six, and its already in there.... "8% for medical program", so no, your whole post is invalidated...

No, but apparently you did.

Let me help you:

All income from employment or self-employment is taxed at 8% before income tax. This tax is termed a "gross tax" (Danish: Arbejdsmarkedsbidrag). Income below DKK 42,800 (USD 7,600) (2014-level, adjusted annually) is income tax-free, but subject to the gross tax.

Interest paid up to DKK 50,000 is tax deductible. Commuting exceeding 24 kilometers/day receives a DKK 1.90 per kilometer tax deduction. For commutes exceeding 100 kilometers per day, the rate is reduced to DKK 0.95 per kilometer. A number of other deductions apply. The general rule is that the taxpayer is able to deduct his/her expenses in acquiring their taxable income, although there are many exceptions to this rule. Employees have very limited possibilities for tax deduction as it is assumed that the employer covers the expenses related to the employee's work. The employer will then be able to deduct most of these expenses from his own taxable income. Furthermore Union Fees are tax deductible.

The state income tax has two income brackets (base and top). In 2014 income from DKK 42,900 to DKK 421,000 is taxed at 5.83% and income above DKK 422,000 is taxed an additional 15%. Other taxes include Municipal income tax, currently in the range 23% - 28%, though on average 24.09%. A Health contribution of 6% apply on all income above the tax free allowance in year 2014, though from there the health contribution is getting merged with the regular income tax by one percent per year. Under the Danish tax system, it is possible for a high-wage earner to pay up to 51.5% of their total income after gross tax, giving a total of 57% of total income. Source

I bolded the taxes paid. Adding them up we get 8%+5.83%+24.09%+6%=43.92%, call it 44% for rounding. This is the average which means 50% of the people will be higher and approaching 50% total taxation even if they are making minimum wage.

Secondly, yes, a bare minimum wage worker at 7.40 an hour MAY qualify for food stamps...

Not may, will. And stop setting up strawmen about anything above minimum wage. You brought up the Danish minimum wage as compared to the American minimum wage so do not move the goalposts.

But I have not known any who get housing, phone, or internet subsidies.

You need to start looking things up:

To participate in the program, consumers must either have an income that is at or below 135% of the federal Poverty Guidelines or participate in one of the following assistance programs:

•Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (Food Stamps or SNAP);

Qualify for food stamps and you get a free phone with service. Section 8 Housing is available to low income earners. The societal benefits portion of your utility and cable bills are used to provide low cost service to low income earners.

Anyway, profitability and diverse market creates competitive rates on goods and services? Is that what you see here in the US? Cause that's where I live, and what I see is we pay more than double the next highest countries rate for 32nd class healthcare.

Because of government regulations many providers are not permitted to cross state lines, this hampers competition.

Lastly, they are not "swaddled in government security" as you put it. The people there are active participants in their government, who used it to enact the programs they want that benefit themselves.....As opposed to here where we have allowed our government to become a tool for corporate greed and power...

Did I miss that cluster-f Obamacare getting passed? Was that an alternate universe where the People voted in this cretin and they implemented that law?

This is all feel-good bull, you want government taking care of you, good for you. Personally, I want government as far away from me as possible because it is inept, incompetent and dangerous.

And frankly, if it is so much better in Denmark what are you still doing here moaning about how bad you have it? Get a visa, head on over and send us a postcard.

a reply to: pexx421

I suggest you compare everyday items for example AVG cost posted on the net.

Meal for 2, Mid-range Restaurant, Three-course 45.00 $ so 268 kr
Meal for 2, Mid-range Restaurant, Three-course 600.00 kr so $100

Exchange rate today $1 = 5.96 kr plus having been in the USA a couple of times your portions are OUTRAGEOUSLY large.

Cars are also half price in the USA !!!

Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre USA $1,903.73
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre kr 24,005.24 that's more than 2X as expensive than the USA!

Gasoline (1 liter) 0.96 $
Gasoline (1 liter) 12.06 kr again more than twice the price!

So they are not as well off as the OP makes out!!!

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus Ah, youre right, I misread that. But no, here in La, full time minimum wage puts you right under 1k, which is just above required for food stamp assistance, which is only offered to people making 956, I believe. Also, your post about coverage not crossing state lines hampering competition doesn't even begin to account for all the ridiculous fees and charges for healthcare. Its all about profit, and has skyrocketed in the last 30 years not because of cost, but because of all the companies that want a hand in the healthcare profit pool. Insurance alone takes 45% of every dollar spent, and contributes absolutely nothing to the actual healthcare itself. Point being, the costs are inflated solely by greed. As for obamacare.....people didn't vote him in. Corporations did, just like every single other presidential candidate. Only people willing to play ball will be on the ballot, and anyone voted in will only work in the corporations best interest. You think the people wanted Obama or obamacare? It was a profit mongering windfall for the insurance agencies and pharmaceutical industry....who donated heavily to Obama's campaign by the way. I don't want the government to "take care of me", I want it to do its job, which is represent my interests and the interests of other tax payers, not campaign contributors. And you are wrong. It is not inept and incompetent.... it is extremely competent at doing exactly what it is meant to...... fleece the American public in order to fatten the wallets of CEO's, shareholders, and stockbrokers. Finally, why should I have to leave? This is supposed to be MY country, as much as anyone elses, and its our duty, as citizens, to honestly recognize the faults and work to change them. But instead, you and others like you seem to just want people to shut up, and allow the kleptocracy to keep swindling them. I don't know why people seem to get so upset and angry when others attempt to point out deficiencies in the system. How else will they ever get fixed? Or should our children just continue living in a system with dwindling living conditions, and a disappearing middle class, indefinitely, without ever deciding to fight for their own rights and protections from exploitation and taxation without representation?

originally posted by: pexx421

Also, your post about coverage not crossing state lines hampering competition doesn't even begin to account for all the ridiculous fees and charges for healthcare.

The fees and surcharges are generated by government involvement. Government hinders competition, not encourages it.

Insurance alone takes 45% of every dollar spent, and contributes absolutely nothing to the actual healthcare itself.

That may be your case but it has never been my case.

I don't want the government to "take care of me", I want it to do its job, which is represent my interests and the interests of other tax payers, not campaign contributors.

The People are also contributors. Everyone has their pet projects and pork they want sent their way.

And you are wrong. It is not inept and incompetent.... it is extremely competent at doing exactly what it is meant to...... fleece the American public in order to fatten the wallets of CEO's, shareholders, and stockbrokers.

Since I am a shareholder in several companies why would I not want them doing well? Do you think I want to invest in a company that is not going to make money?

Finally, why should I have to leave? This is supposed to be MY country, as much as anyone elses, and its our duty, as citizens, to honestly recognize the faults and work to change them. But instead, you and others like you seem to just want people to shut up, and allow the kleptocracy to keep swindling them.

Is that so? Maybe I do not see businesses as some boogeyman hiding under the bed. I have been in business and worked for others and they all involve people and they all had the same goal, profitability.

a reply to: wmd_2008 Honestly, any time I go out to a mid-range restaurant, say PF changes, or Houstons, it usually costs about 100 if I want a three course meal for 2 as well. The entrees are usually 20-30 each, appatizers about 8-12, dessert about the same. Add in wine and it goes up much higher. Who eats three course meals, anyway? Most often we go to small ethnic or mom and pop places, and yes, the food there is much cheaper...and fresher. Made with real ingredients too.

I see what you are saying about cars too.....but isn't scootering or biking feasible there? Here, a car is pretty much a necessity. Most people work 10-20 miles from home, I have worked 60, and know many others who did the same. Many jobs will not even hire you if you don't have a vehicle. I got the impression that the situation is different in most of Europe, you not being the commuter society that we are, and also with you having reliable public transportation. There isn't even a bus that would get me from my home to work.

Honestly, rent wise, yes, Denmarks seems more expensive than what I see here in baton rouge, but not near twice as much. I saw plenty apartments listed there in the range of 1500-2500 usd/month for three bedrooms. In all honesty, here in baton rouge (and I have been looking a lot lately), for any barely decent apartment its at least 1500 a month for three bedrooms, and we are not talking granite or stainless steel either. Now, imagining two minimum earners (im thinking a couple, here....if you are single, you can just rent a room or something), each taking home about 1000 a month here, and being able to afford that....not likely. They are left with about 500 for everything else. Thinking of two people in Denmark at McD, with 4000 a month income between them, being able to afford a 2000 place (2k was the midrange)....they still have half their money left over. Just seems a bit more feasible. I really don't know though. I know that over here 500 will get you utilities (about 200....if you are very careful) internet (another 50), cell phone (45) and 200 left is not going to buy much food or gas...but you cant afford the car note anyhow. How well can you get by with 2k in Denmark? Is that enough for food and necessities?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Unless that 61% is paying for your food, shelter, transportation and clothing than the 39% (not 49%) left is not disposable income.

Disposable income is what you have after you pay your fixed charges.

It is also a bit comical that you say it is all free when they are paying a 61% tax rate. It is obviously not free, they are paying for it.

Their tax rate really isn't that much higher than ours and they get a lot more for it. Once you add up all the taxes in the US: Property, Income, Sales, Gas, and all the rest how much are you really paying? I bet it's close to 50%. So you're paying 50% and getting virtually nothing but they're paying 61% and getting a lot.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
You are omitting the fact that an American adult worker making minimum wage is also eligible for government assistance for food, housing, telecommunications, internet and additional subsidies.

You would be surprised at how little. My income is roughly $750/month with a rent (that includes utilities) of $500/month. That qualifies me for $60 in food stamps according to the great state of Ohio. Our support systems do not support the poor, they support people with kids that they can't afford.

originally posted by: interupt42
I'm a little confused , you say you are getting minimum wage as a software developer?

I happen to be in the software industry myself , and I have yet to see anyone that is actually a developer get paid minimum wage?

Correct, it's due to a mix of things.
One: I'm currently attending school and work part time so the company feels they should only pay me minimum wage.
Two: This is a very poor area, our median income is only about $14,000 which is less than the full time minimum wage of $16,328. No one is actually making a to of money.

It goes beyond the company though, my previous job was as a tutor which required having a degree in the subjects I was tutoring. That was also minimum wage. I shouldn't complain though, 75% of my graduating class is completely unemployed.

My current job has me creating games/simulations in Unity that show off motion capture systems. Note that this requires both the ability to program as well as my graphics degree which gave me knowledge of 3d systems, motion capture, and so on.

Some advice, a programmer can replace a programmer but not a programmer that specialise in a certain area like asset management or financial management , or databases, etc.

Those are critical fields in the business world.

Gaming is an area from what I understand that does not pay well because everyone out of college wants to do it. So they are flooded with demand.

Gaming is the lower paid more difficult field of software creation. But, it's what I want to do which is why I'm still in school for it. Everyone wants to do it but few actually have relevant degrees or the skills to make something successful. There's a reason 80% of games fail.

What I'm learning now is a bit of specialization, there's a lot of programming that's game specific which you don't really get in a regular programming education largely revolving around memory management and code efficiency. When I'm all done (or atleast have learned everything I need) I'm going to launch my own product, I work on it a lot in my spare time but given the failure rate of games I'm not confident it will succeed.

The other problem is that tech skills just aren't all that in demand around here. For example a year and a half ago or so I made a system for a local business. There was no way he would pay me what it was worth but I wanted to improve his business which was a gaming card shop so I did it anyways. It involved making a website, point of sale system, online store, building a database, and a few other things... I even built the server for him. The end result of all this was that he saved about 4 hours a day constantly repricing things, and had an actual inventory of every single thing in his store, as well as an online presence so he wasn't just limited to walk ins. I recently just tried to sell the same thing to another local similar business and the response was basically "I don't want a computer to run my store". Those skills just aren't in demand around here. I wish that wasn't the case but poor areas tend to also be the areas to shun technology.

Will that change in the future? Possibly, but I'm living where I currently do for another two years first in order to finish school.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus Very well done at completely avoiding each point. Hospital costs are NOT generated by government involvement. I have worked in hospitals for over a decade. The costs are, in fact, completely made up, with no expectation of full pay, just the hope of getting as much as possible from each patient. These are PROFIT costs, not expense based costs.

Insurance is a scam. I pointed out that in the us, 45 cents of every dollar spent in healthcare goes to insurance companies. And the insurance company does not suture a wound, compound a drug, or talk you through your problems. That's what I mean by "they contribute nothing to the healthcare"....all they do is make it 45% more expensive. This is not your case? I don't even know what that means. it certainly doesn't address the point.

When I then point out that the government represents monied interests you state that people are also contributors. But every recent study has found that voters have almost zero say in legislation and government, while corporations get just about everything they ask for.

lastly, most businesses may have profitability for a goal....but not all of them are willing to pursue that goal at the expense of human lives and dignity. Certain corporations are completely willing to allow their actions to cause cancers and other illnesses to the populations that live near their industry. Some are willing to lie, and sell thousands of vaccines infected with live HIV because they don't want to lose the profit of the vaccines they already made. Some are willing to sell medications proven not to work, some are willing to employ children in slave-like conditions. Some are willing to force American tax payers to pay billions of dollars in welfare because they don't want to pay their workers enough. Some are willing to destabilize the whole economy so they can use the opportunity and the crash to buy up all the smaller banks and consolidate their control of the moneys of the US. Some are willing to, well, you get the point. Yes, I think there is a difference in how businesses choose to make a profit, and I think that the strongest businesses, that control most of our government, are also the ones with the least scruples. I think MANY people recognize this, and they are speaking out about it (like the OP), and you guys come on here and suggest everyone else should just keep their head in the sand, like you, and ignore what is really going on. What you are doing is detrimental for the movement to fairness and correction of the problems. If you don't want to help, if you don't want to secure the future of your descendants, that's fine. But don't try to undermine those that do.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: pexx421

Lastly....61% tax....when you get free healthcare, free education, plenty vacation and family time, maternity and PATERNITY leave, and pay while you do all these things. That makes the majority of that 49% left over disposable income.....something almost non existant in the us.

Unless that 61% is paying for your food, shelter, transportation and clothing than the 39% (not 49%) left is not disposable income.

Disposable income is what you have after you pay your fixed charges.

It is also a bit comical that you say it is all free when they are paying a 61% tax rate. It is obviously not free, they are paying for it.

This is the way of a peoples who actually give a # about eachother rather than just ourselves.

I happily pay those taxes.... HAPPILY. Because its secures the life and well being of me, my family and friends.

- Free public school
I pay 80 dollars a month for my daughters afterschool ours in the care center. That's it.....

- Daycare subsidised....
My youngest is in daycare, but the state pays 40% of the bill.

On top of that, having a kid you get something that is called "kid and youngester benefit" which is around 800 dollars every 3 months. Per kid.......

- Free healthcare....
A couple of months ago our son had a bad case of intestine infection. We had to go to the hospital. So we did.
We had 3 doctors look at him, we had bloodwork, we got driven by ambulance to the State hospital in Copenhagen where we were quartered in a room that had two beds for two kids, each with their own tv and Playstation setup.
There was a playroom loaded with toys, after he was cleared, our son could eat what ever he wanted from the kitchen that had several brands of cereal and other types of food and juices etc.
During the stay at the state hospital our son was x-rayed, ultra sound scanned and was seen by another two doctors.
The was over the course of 24 hours.... when we were sent home in good health (no clear threat apparent to him), how much did we pay???? Not a single dime...

If I need something from my practioner I just go and have it fixed and I'm sent off again without paying for anything.
Me personally, have had apnea treatment, where I was checked by a specilist and ended up with an apnea machine sitting on my bedroom table. Again... without payment.

Dentists cost money, but the bill is greatly reduced because the state pays a lot of it....

- Transport deduction....
Me personaly.... I'm getting around what equals to 71% of 1 months pay in tax deduction for transportation compensation to my workplace.

- Wellfare....
If I ever become so unfortunate as to lose my job and don't manage to get a new one within two years time, I will be eligeble for wellfare benefits which amounts to around 36% of my current salery. Basically everyone is entitled to this (with some prohibitions though... people with personal wealth that they don't "need" like a house or a car, will have to sell them before receiving benefit. This is fair enough in my opinion)

- If you drive an electric car.... like the Tesla or a Nissan leaf, you will not be charged the same taxes as those driving in cars that run on gas.

If we were to look past the debt that I have established due to foolery in my younger years, I would after having paid all bills and the food the family needs every month, have just over 1000 dollars left each month to dispose of as I please.
You can get quite a lot for that kind of money here in Denmark.

So.... I'm immensely happy living here.

If I were to choose any other country it would be Norway where my mother lives;
- Half tax in june and no tax in december.
- Same as all of the above.
- Massive STATE oil wealth, means good times for all.
- I heard that the Norwegian government is buying up a lot of real estate in the US.....

originally posted by: pexx421
How well can you get by with 2k in Denmark? Is that enough for food and necessities?

Our monthly food purchases that will cover breakfast, lunch packs and dinner for the whole month is around 700 dollars. Are we eat well... we only buy the milk the kids need for their cereal. Milk is completely unhealthy for humans who are not still growing. We drink tap water and very occasionally a soda.
Meat is around 5.5 dollars for a pound of lowfat minse beef. This is roughly 0,13% of my monthly salery.
Fresh chicken breast is about the the same, ecological is a litle more expensive, but tastes FAR better and leaves you without a guilty conscience of eating a totured animal.
These purchases allow me to make a lunchpack every day for my son that contains:
- Two slices of whole grain rye bread (rye is big in denmark ), cut in half to make four slices with liver paté, beetroot salat, sliced fish ball, and today also salmon.
- 6-7 pieces of fresh raspberry, strawberry or blueberry
- A lump of cucumber.
- A slice of bell pepper.
- Raisins
- A stick of fig cold cut
- A stick of cheese.
- and occasionally a slice of crispbread with strawberry jam if I feel like it ;P

Our rent is 1450 dollars a month, which covers rent of our 4 bedroom apartment with a balcony, two toilets and a bathroom (1180 square feet), water and pre paid heat which we just had a refund of 450 dollars from last years pay.

The electric bill comes every three months and is pretty steady at 200 dollars.

Internet is 50 dollars a month for a 30mbit / 30 mbit line.

I pay 25 dollars for my current phone subscription which has more data and phone time than I need, along with free texts and MMS'

We don't have a car, because that's just another debt trap and cars are notoriously expensive here in Denmark. A good family sized car will set you back 37000 dollars for a brand new one.

Thankfully my girlfriend works in the local area and I use the publica transportation to get to work. Actually I get more in transport tax deduction than my train pass costs me

a reply to: IWasHereEonsAgo Hm, interesting, thanks for the info. Beef is about the same here, 5 dollars or so a pound of ground beef. Chicken is cheaper...but it certainly is not "fresh" chicken, usually comes from some huge industrial center, and all of it is thrown together there in offal, and pumped with chloride, but it still gets to you with pretty much guaranteed salmonella, so you always have to rinse it off good and cook it well. We live in a 3 bedroom here in baton rouge, la, and its very cheap at 1150/month, 1290 sq ft, but its falling apart, and no maintenance.

Am I reading this right, is your electric bill actually 200 dollars every three months?? Because ours is about 200 a month. Anyway, we are a family of four, me, girl, and two kids, and our food bill is about $500 a month. Though, to be honest, when I was single and making good money, I easily spent $500 a month on groceries myself. Ah, its been too long since I had a good buffalo ribeye

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus Very well done at completely avoiding each point. Hospital costs are NOT generated by government involvement. I have worked in hospitals for over a decade. The costs are, in fact, completely made up, with no expectation of full pay, just the hope of getting as much as possible from each patient. These are PROFIT costs, not expense based costs.

Insurance is a scam. I pointed out that in the us, 45 cents of every dollar spent in healthcare goes to insurance companies. And the insurance company does not suture a wound, compound a drug, or talk you through your problems. That's what I mean by "they contribute nothing to the healthcare"....all they do is make it 45% more expensive. This is not your case? I don't even know what that means. it certainly doesn't address the point.

When I then point out that the government represents monied interests you state that people are also contributors. But every recent study has found that voters have almost zero say in legislation and government, while corporations get just about everything they ask for.

lastly, most businesses may have profitability for a goal....but not all of them are willing to pursue that goal at the expense of human lives and dignity. Certain corporations are completely willing to allow their actions to cause cancers and other illnesses to the populations that live near their industry. Some are willing to lie, and sell thousands of vaccines infected with live HIV because they don't want to lose the profit of the vaccines they already made. Some are willing to sell medications proven not to work, some are willing to employ children in slave-like conditions. Some are willing to force American tax payers to pay billions of dollars in welfare because they don't want to pay their workers enough. Some are willing to destabilize the whole economy so they can use the opportunity and the crash to buy up all the smaller banks and consolidate their control of the moneys of the US. Some are willing to, well, you get the point. Yes, I think there is a difference in how businesses choose to make a profit, and I think that the strongest businesses, that control most of our government, are also the ones with the least scruples. I think MANY people recognize this, and they are speaking out about it (like the OP), and you guys come on here and suggest everyone else should just keep their head in the sand, like you, and ignore what is really going on. What you are doing is detrimental for the movement to fairness and correction of the problems. If you don't want to help, if you don't want to secure the future of your descendants, that's fine. But don't try to undermine those that do.

Damn pexx, you just laid the smack down on everyone in this thread good job.