Aww poor college students boo hoo!

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck
catching a ride to the space station has nothing to do with dumbing down the population. that has everything to to with greed and crooked politicians.

If the population still demanded excellence, it would not have come to be in the first place. A very specific degree in the Humanities may limit one's employment prospects outside of academe, but it still represents an ability to think and reason critically. If education is limited to job skills as the OP and so many others advocate, then society cannot help but dumb down.

This is an outstanding point.

I told my wife a few times over the years that I was interested in returning to college. She is dumbfounded that I would invest time/money into a pursuit that wouldn't enrich us financially. Classes in the humanities and classes in psychology.

School isn't my "thing", but that is because it was something I had to do, not something I wanted to do. I didn't get the time to study the things that were interesting as I spent my time trying to meet core curricula.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I concur.

There needs to be a balance of basic job skills, tradesmen skills, humanities, science fields, technological development, etc in order for a country to properly function at all levels - from both the bottom up and the top down.

If a country does not provide its citizens with an affordable post-secondary education opportunity that's easily accessible to ALL of its citizens, you end up with a country that's going to fall into some serious economic/sociological hardships due to an imbalance of skills vs job vacancies.

As an example: Too many ditch diggers and not enough engineers, is not what a healthy economic flow makes.... You end up with a lot of unemployed ditch diggers for lack of available job vacancies, and not enough engineers to oversee new projects that create new jobs.

The end result: You have to bring in foreign engineers to fill the needed positions because there's not enough in-country to fill the quota.


Edit to add:

The sociological hardships are that you end up with a populace with a higher percentage of non-thinkers vs thinkers... which is exactly what you so concisely pointed out.

a reply to: CranialSponge

That's already happening.

www.cbsnews.com...

You know this is bull#?

These employers won't create entry level jobs and apprentice positions to teach the younger generations. The reason they can't find skilled workers is because they aren't training anyone.

a reply to: onequestion

Of course it's happening.

If people can't afford to get some post-secondary education under their belts, you end up with a country filled with ditch diggers and having to bring in foreigners to fill the other jobs.

Great for foreigners with regards to job opportunities... not so great for the native citizens with regards to forcing their leaders to come up with post-secondary education solutions.

a reply to: onequestion

These employers won't create entry level jobs and apprentice positions to teach the younger generations. The reason they can't find skilled workers is because they aren't training anyone.

You can't run a company with nothing but entry level employees. You're going to need to have skilled employees taking the helm as well.

Not all skilled jobs can be 'trained' on site.... many of those positions require post-secondary education.

And now you're back to square one.


Edit to add:

You seem to be concerned with availablity of apprentice positions. But what you're not understanding is that there are only so many apprenticeship openings that a company can offer. This is due to certain laws requiring that a company must have a certain percentage of journeymen to a certain percentage of apprentices in its employ.

You can't have 4 apprentices working under 1 journeyman.

It's the law, and if not followed, can get a company shut down due to serious liability issues.

a reply to: CranialSponge

But you can't run a company with no one working for you either so how do you get skilled workers?

At what point do companies need to start obsorbing the cost of education?

a reply to: onequestion

See my additional edit to my post...

There is only so much 'education' an employer can provide before stepping over liability lines.

a reply to: CranialSponge

ahhhhhhh ok I just read your edit

originally posted by: subject x
I have doubts as to whether the education is worth the money. I've have a friend going to college, and I've been helping him a lot. I've been consistently getting 80s without even reading the book. Now,I've never been to college, and if just my general knowledge is scoring B's, why would I want to pay to take the class?

As far as paying for it, we're all expected to be in debt for life these days, so what's another payment?

maybe not an law degree, only half get hired in the first year into a some type of law practice...how about an engineering degree....best 4 year degree as far as employment.

a reply to: onequestion

If you're itching to get into an apprenticeship program, than allow me to offer you some sage advice based on my experience of working in the construction/manufacturing industries for 25 years:

Get a job working for a company that offers apprentice sponsorship in the field that you're aiming for. You won't necessarily get hired into the apprentice program right away, but you will be working for the company as a 'ditch digger'.... which will give you first dibs of getting into that apprenticeship once another position opens up (so long as your employer is happy with your work and you've proven yourself to be competent and reliable). It might be a year or two before another apprenticeship position opens up, but patience is a virtue in this case.

You need to get your foot in the door that way because there is an overabundance of ditch diggers trying to do the same thing as you are.

If you are already working for the company, you're already one step ahead of the competition because your employer is already familiar with your work ethics and capabilities.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

again your wrong, there was and continued to be many voices of opposition to the decision to become solely dependent on the Russians for transport to the space station. you can go back as far as 2004 and find where people started saying that was a bad decision. some will say that it was a safety concern, well it may have been but it is well known that they knew of the heat shield problems just like the o ring problems. once big business and government put their mind to something is going to be it is very rarely does it go the other way.

your comment

Which attitude all goes to explain why a once proud America now has to hitchhike to the space station. Folks that actively promote the dumbing down of its population.

made it sound as if the sole reason the U.S. was relying on Russia was that U.S. citizens have become to stupid to build and launch space vehicles. which is not the case. as a matter of fact it is far from it. see my above comments.

it was political, and corrupt businesses practices that forced the shuttle to be scraped until the next generation or the CEV came into being. you can say there was money to be made.

now yes i do agree with you that there are some occupations that should and do require a degree, but the entire work force of a country can not be someone that makes 100,000 plus a year right out of school, or doesn't have to gain experience just because they went to school to get a degree. there have to be people to repair, build and maintain the systems and equipment. really in a lot of jobs all you need to know is the basics and then the rest comes as you gain experience in the field.

as a commercial / industrial service tech i can tell that the technicians that didn't go to school or have a degree are more than likely to know as much if not more than engineers. when i first started i was cleaning parts, then as i moved up, i was often given a service manual and told to fix it, never having any formal training or schooling, or able to find anyone in the company that knew anything about them.

there was this one company that we had a warranty service contract with. they came out with a new drive, and were having a great deal of problems with. i was sent to work on one and their service manual had very little information in it.
i did what was in the book, which there was very little of. then my own trouble shooting, and called the service engineering department, asked what they thought was the problem and was told that what was in the book was what they had. i told them that all that was fine, and what i had found, they asked me if i had if i had made notes and what steps i did to come to that conclusion. i said yes, they asked me to email them the notes so they could check. i did and they sent me the parts. fixed the unit and never had any problems with that one again.

the next time i had to work on one, i pulled the service manuals and service bulletins that had come out and there in my own hand writing were my notes and steps i did to repair the first one. they didn't even bother to retype or correct spelling mistakes or give me credit for the notes.

no there maybe some who want to dumb down the population, it's not the population is dumb, a degree doesn't make you the sharpest tool in the shed.

@cranial spong and 1Q.

This is the dilemma we live with today. Everything requires two years experience. Even people fresh out of college can't get into their fields due to this stupid requirement. That is why I had the idea of creating a school that is just for that. Creating experienced individuals. The only reason why companies do this is to encourage people to get experience somewhere. But how? It is just like 1Q said... There are not enough "journeymen" as you put it, but at the same time there are not enough followers currently enrolled for our most wanted needs.

But then there is the general public's perception on how everything is supposed to work. If something breaks they buy a new one. They don't want to try and fix things they just want a new one. They don't care how they obtain it they just want a new one. And this broken thing can be anything or anyone for that matter. What I am tired of seeing is companies not willing to train at all. I have seen it at all of my jobs, as well as people who say they would hire me but I have no previous experience. I want to learn as much as possible. But the problem in this country is people getting tired of training people, not keeping them, tossing them into the junk box, and then continuing to become even more lazy about it. They keep putting that 2 year bull # on everything.

Only because they can't teach. They don't want to teach anymore. That is why I think there should be a school that teaches individuals how to do everything. Get hands on experience, create better professionals. Because at this rate of 2 year requirements, we will run out of desireable people as of 2008. Oh yeah that was 6 years ago. So that means foreigners with that ability to get experience while #ing up in their own countries can move over, give them a paper with that 2 year bs and move on.

Our problem in our country is lawsuits. And we keep becoming more stupid with each new law suit that shows up.

We need better education. All of us 80s to 90s kids are all getting screwed. The 2000 and 2010 kids are going to get screwed by the 1970 kids, and us. That is the way I see it.

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
...a degree doesn't make you the sharpest tool in the shed.

No...but it could show you where the caps key is.

a reply to: GiulXainx

There actually are some options for anyone wanting to get into an apprenticeship, but the spaces available are limited to a degree, and I'm not sure how it works in the US, I'm only familiar with how it works in Canada.

There's a pre-employment program offered by the apprenticeship board.

What this program does is educates you in some of the basics of the field you want to get into, thereby giving you a little post-secondary education as well as, and more importantly, a little bit of hands-on experience in the field. This program also credits towards your first level apprenticeship. It doesn't actually get you into an apprenticeship (you need to be sponsored by an employer for that), but it gives you the necessary skills needed to get your foot in the door with an employer.

Also, the apprenticeship board gives you lists of employers who are offering available apprentice positions and/or future ones. It gives you a heads up on where to apply for jobs as a labourer/helper... again, a foot in the door.


I'm just assuming that this is something offered in the US, but I might be wrong.

a reply to: CranialSponge

God I wish.

a reply to: CranialSponge

As 1Q said..... We are not sure that this even exists in the US. At least I don't have any knowledge of a place like this existing for people in my age group. Here in New mexico they have something called Job Corps. But it is limited to people between the ages of 18-25.

I have called around my state and the best thing anyone could point me in the direction of was either College, or a temp agency. Temp agencies here are kind of sad really. They just throw you into a position with just a pamphlet to read about the job.

There isn't anyone really there to prepare you for anything. Instead we have to rely on what the supervisors want us to do.

Seriously if something like this exists in the US then I haven't found it yet.

Hey guys,

The class I am currently taking "microeconomics," has a good explanation onto why an education can be an important.


from our book (Principles of economics, 7th ed.) on education and human capital

"Human capital is the accumulation of investments in people. The most important type of human capital is education. Like all forms of capital, education represents an expenditure of resources
at one time to raise productivity in the future. But unlike an investment in other
forms of capital, an investment in education is tied to a specific person, and this
linkage is what makes it human capital."

Mankiw, N. Gregory (2014-01-01). Principles of Economics, 7th ed. (Page 397). Cengage Learning. Kindle Edition.

So if a person want's to increase his or her value (especially hiring value) an education can be extremely helpful. Regardless of anything, an education should always be viewed as a personal investment into oneself, as opposed to a future meal ticket.

the only apprenticeships I've seen in the states have been offered by the unions
try doing a search with your state along with apprenticeship and see what happens
I found this

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKs9_mgYSMQ&feature=relmfu

and played with it some did find one employer listed for a machinist apprenticeship but that was all although I didn't search for other areas and did a search on a few of the occupations..
there's lots of occupations listed though

originally posted by: Metallicus
It doesn't hurt to have some empathy for your fellow humans. One thing I think we as a society should pay for is the education and betterment of our fellow man (or woman).

That assumes the education and betterment being paid for is actually beneficial and effective. Most degrees won't get the holder a job that pays enough to justify the cost of the degree.

The whole degree system is a con game. It's not about preparation for a career. It's about ideology.

Would it be an exercise in empathy to pay for someone elses participation in a Ponzi scheme?

originally posted by: catface
So if a person want's to increase his or her value (especially hiring value) an education can be extremely helpful. Regardless of anything, an education should always be viewed as a personal investment into oneself, as opposed to a future meal ticket.

A lot of people fail to see experience as an education. Both are valuable separate but both are extremely valuable when tied together. Getting a education can be a short cut to how things work, but getting hands dirty and actually doing the work is a much more valuable experience.

People all to often pish-posh the idea of the former mail-boy/girl starting at the bottom and working their way to the top. But it does happen.

I would rather have a high school grad (or even drop out) running my business, that started out at the bottom, but learned everything that there is about that dept. and applied for the next higher level and did the same thing and continued doing so throughout their career. Yes that takes time.

And guess where I would put that college grad if I hired them? At the bottom, where he/she will have to work their way up and learn the business...just like everybody else.