Kristallnacht : A warning from history

Okay, hello again.

Now, do you not realize that the Old Testament of the Torah and Christian traditions posits God telling the Israelites to commit genocide on the Canaanites? And, according to the Bible, they kill every man, woman, and child?

And Christians say that the OT is still the word of God as well......

So, Judaism and Christianity also are founded on a blood-thirsty history or at least text. Can you admit that?

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: neformore
a reply to: TechniXcality

You do realise that Goebbels would be proud of that line, don't you?

Actually TechniXcality and Semperfortis are right.

BTW, I am not saying all Muslims are radical, or bad people, but the fact is Islam was written (well, actually he recited it) by a man who was a murderer, who chopped off heads of the men of caravans who would surrender, who took slave wives from caravans he and his groups raided. Muhammad, a man who went against the mandates he himself claimed came from God (or the archangel Gabriel) such as having only 4 wives, when he had 11-13.

When some people claim that "radical Islam was invented by the west" I often refer back to the first major wars the U.S. had to fight, alongside some countries in Europe, against the northern African nations (Barbary states) in the early 1800s.

All we have to do is read what Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman, told Thomas Jefferson and John Adams in 1785 to their question of "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury" the ambassador replied:

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It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.[21]

Jefferson reported the conversation to Secretary of Foreign Affairs John Jay, who submitted the Ambassador's comments and offer to Congress. Jefferson argued that paying tribute would encourage more attacks. Although John Adams agreed with Jefferson, he believed that circumstances forced the U.S. to pay tribute until an adequate navy could be built. The U.S. had just fought an exhausting war, which put the nation deep in debt. Federalist and Anti-Federalist forces argued over the needs of the country and the burden of taxation. Jefferson's own Democratic-Republicans and anti-navalists believed that the future of the country lay in westward expansion, with Atlantic trade threatening to siphon money and energy away from the new nation on useless wars in the Old World.[22] The U.S. paid Algiers the ransom, and continued to pay up to $1 million per year over the next 15 years for the safe passage of American ships or the return of American hostages.[citation needed] A $1 million payment in ransom and tribute to the privateering states would have amounted to approximately 10% of the U.S. government's annual revenues in 1800.[
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en.wikipedia.org...

Muhammed was not a peaceful person, and he encouraged the expansion of Islam by any and every way, including by use of the sword, or the use of deception or "al-Taqiyya".

Islam Permits Lying to Deceive Unbelievers and Bring World Domination!

By Don Boys, Ph.D.

Published Nov 17, 2004

deception; the islamic word for concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies.

It is impossible to understand Islam and Muslims by listening to their protestations against terror and their proclamations of patriotism for America. Usually, it is wise and fair to give people the benefit of the doubt but when it comes to national safety and the future of America, we had better look twice, even thrice at Muslim patriotism. Why? Because Islam permits lying! It is called “Al-taqiyya.” One Muslim said that Al-taqiyya means dissimulation then he expanded it to diplomacy but he should have gone further to deception. Now some Muslims who do not follow the Koran are as faithful Americans as any of us, but the problem is, we cannot know.
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www.muslimfact.com...

If you don't want to believe the above link, there are others.

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Introduction

The word "al-Taqiyya”literally means: "Concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury.”A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."

The above definition must be elaborated upon before any undertaking of this topic is to ensue. Although correct, the definition suffers from an apparent generalization, and lacks some ndamental details that should be construed:

First, the concealment of one’s beliefs does not necessitate an ABANDONMENT of these beliefs. The distinction between "concealment”and "abandonment”MUST be noted here.

Second, there are numerous exceptions to the above definition, and they MUST be judged according to the situation that one is placed in. As such, one should NOT make a narrow-minded generalization that encompasses all situations, thereby failing to fully absorb the spirit of the definition.

Third, the word "beliefs”and/or "convictions”does NOT necessarily mean "religious”beliefs and/or convictions.

With the above in mind, it becomes evident that a better, and more accurate definition of "al-Taqiyya”is "diplomacy.”The true spirit of "al- Taqiyya”is better embodied in the single word "diplomacy”because it encompasses a comprehensive spectrum of behaviors that serve to further the vested interests of all parties involved.
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www.al-islam.org...

But hey, I guess it is true that "diplomacy" is the art of "deception" huh?

Anyways, I don't believe that all Muslims subscribe to the extremist view, but Islam does allow extremism despite claims of the contrary. You will find some sections of the Quran which would seem to be peaceful, but you can find other sections speaking of the same thing but having nothing to do with peaceful intentions.

The worse part is, how do you separate the radicals from non-radicals? There are those that call themselves as being non-radical and then they demonstrate the contrary.

And, how is the Old Testament different?

It has God telling the Israelites to commit genocide on the Canaanite people because they are "unclean" and of the wrong religion.


Have you actually read the Old Testament, that which both Jesus in the NT and Christians assert is still the "Word of God?" That Jesus said that nobody can take a word from?

It has exactly what you are accusing Nazis AND Muslims of: Genocidal tendencies, xenophobia, racism, bigotry, "Chosen people."

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Ridhya

The rulers of USA are definitely atheist. A Christian label does not make you a Christian. A Christian is one who follows Jesus Christ. Celebrating Easter and X'mas does not make a Christian.

You are correct that atheist are the worst. However Islam is close second in murder.

Islam ideology is very close to Nazi ideology, which is a tribal ideology where people external to tribe are rejected.

The civilized people who bow to ONE God all believe that God is impartial and one for all living beings.

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon
a reply to: neformore

There's one big difference between the US and nazi Germany, though.

Muslims are actually attacking us.

But not all Muslims are, yet all Muslims are feeling the backlash because of the actions of a small minority of radical crazy a-holes.

I'm sure at some point we'll start requiring Muslims to be identified, maybe a yellow crescent moon?
It's heading that way and the OP is absolutely right in what they're saying.

Exactly, and meanwhile a bunch of Christians have been running around colonizing, invading, and suppressing countries around the world for nigh on 500 years..

But of course, a few bands of violent Muslims doing small attacks (relatively) on the big Western countries makes Islam far worse, even though the Western countries are factually responsible for far more war-like actions for 500 years.

This, is how I know that most Christians and westerners have never actually thought through their viewpoints or biases.

originally posted by: thirdcoast
Kudos to the OP, and many of the replies. But LOL, us? Learn from history? Look where we're at. We didn't learn sh*t from history.

originally posted by: GargIndia
When Jesus Christ gave a preach of love and kindness, there was a reason to it. If you want to live a good life, the most important ingredient is peace. And peace come from love and sharing, not from hating.

The biggest problem with Islam is HATE. Islam is full of HATE.

I can't speak for Islam becuase I don't subscribe to any religion. But, i confidently say, Islam is not full of hate. No religion is.

a reply to: neformore

To add to my previous post a couple of pages ago, I'd like to say this.

If anyone should be heeding a warning from Kristallnacht, it's the European governments concerning the safety of their own peole.

Like when the Nazi party swept in, with the majority of the vote, so is Islam being swept in with the majority of the governments allowing it to happen. And when the Nazi's took to the streets, much like Islam is doing, innocent people had to pay the price.

In the 20's it was the Jew's. Today? It's the Europeans.

Islam is equally as dangerous to the European people as the Nazi party was towards the Jewish populace. However, this time around people pussyfoot around the issue because it isn't politically correct.

originally posted by: stargatetravels

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon
a reply to: neformore

There's one big difference between the US and nazi Germany, though.

Muslims are actually attacking us.

But not all Muslims are, yet all Muslims are feeling the backlash because of the actions of a small minority of radical crazy a-holes.

I'm sure at some point we'll start requiring Muslims to be identified, maybe a yellow crescent moon?
It's heading that way and the OP is absolutely right in what they're saying.

They harvest their radicals from the general Muslim population, especially newer converts. The new converts get aid in the form of daily essentials like food shelter even rides to appointments. They are brought into the big wealthy mosques that symbolize stability and power and represent longevity. The trappings of the Muslim world are used to recruit. In the prisons it may be companionship and security along with a well funded flow of contraband to pass the time. If these radicals were left on their own to hovel in dirty caves they would not be attracting so many recruits but they are using the Muslim world establishments as collateral to draw in people and funds.

Most of the hostility in the Quran/Koran seems to be directed towards 'Idolaters', specifically.

While many Muslims and others take that to include, for example, Buddhists or Christians who may pray in front of a statue of the Buddha or Christ, this is not so. This is a personal interpretation.

'Idolaters' in the Koran/Quran is referring to a very specific people/culture it seems, in the same region.

I don't know much about it, but these people had 'idols' or Teraphim which were like little dolls shaped like man used for who knows what. Reminds me of Vodou.

en.wikipedia.org...

In what we have learned recently of the antics of groups such as the NSA/CIA or whatever governmental organization otherwise named, it seems that forums (perhaps such as ATS) are being manipulated for purposes of changing/leading opinions or disrupting discussion. I am going to hope that all of those that aren’t understanding the OP are simply part of this campaign, otherwise, I have to conclude humanity has no hope.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

There's no Christian tradition in the old testament

Acts11
And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Galatians4
for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

disciples of who? Jesus, which=

John 6
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

1Corinthians11
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood

Matthew28
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

murder?

1John3
know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

?

Revelation 19
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

a reply to: neformore
People have been hating on the jews and STILL DO today the exacxt same way.

a reply to: Auricom

And again, thank you for your input - your post is typical of the kinds of propaganda the Nazis' used about the Jews, and exactly the kind of thing I was referring to in my OP.

The kind of thing that will end up with internment, tattoos and gas chambers.

You know, I read the posts by some folk here and the degree of absolutism just astounds me.

Applying the "logic" I'm seeing from some people, Ireland should be a smoking wasteland, because of the actions of the (fundamentalist catholics) of the IRA. Not only that but, apparently, all catholics are terrorists and deserved to be wiped out.

Using that same "logic" gun owners are royally screwed because the idiots who go out on spree killings mean they are all murderers.

Think about it. It must be the case because people are incapable of understanding that the actions of a minority cannot be blamed on the majority.

Its a really, really scary thought process.

a reply to: neformore

I was thinking how best to characterize you and since we used a lot of biblical themes in this thread
you are best called "multicultural pharisee"

You warning about some imminent hate, but you yourself accusing people of hate much and using words like Hell whereas I said Hamdullila.

a reply to: Auricom

Exactly - for the irrational fear of being labelled anti-you-know-what. Either that or some other sinister agenda.

originally posted by: neformore
a reply to: semperfortis

The difference is that people will readily accept that not all Germans were Nazi's.

Speak for yourself.

They might now-a-days, but I assure you, my grandfather and his brothers hated the Krauts, every last one of them. To him every German was evil. And, I'm glad they thought that way as it likely kept them alive as they helped reclaim Europe. With out that mentality, there would be no such thing as .com websites as they would all be .de if you catch my drift.

Go ahead, keep ignoring the fact that the closest thing today to German National Socialist Fascism is the idea of Shariah Law.

BTW, as a history buff, how did the Nazi German war machine find financing? As I recall western nations wouldn't lend to the Germans. In a related question, why did Persia change it's name to Aryan? The hate that bank rolled the German War machine and provided it the oil it needed is the same hate that today demands the Caliphate. It never went away because of the weak mentality of the west.

a reply to: neformore

You know, I read the posts by some folk here and the degree of absolutism just astounds me.

Applying the "logic" I'm seeing from some people, Ireland should be a smoking wasteland, because of the actions of the (fundamentalist catholics) of the IRA. Not only that but, apparently, all catholics are terrorists and deserved to be wiped out.

Using that same "logic" gun owners are royally screwed because the idiots who go out on spree killings mean they are all murderers.

Think about it. It must be the case because people are incapable of understanding that the actions of a minority cannot be blamed on the majority.

All that you listed now it is how YOU applied some "logic", you making sweeping broad accusations on mental processes of some people. It is mental genocide and pharisee practice.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: neformore

No obviously not all Muslims are terrorists but unfortunately because of their ideology all Muslims are potential terrorists.

I would like to rectify that, every muslim is our potential enemy ...

And with that, I'd like to state that I am really sick and tired of all this Germany and Nazi's, and WWIII ... and everything is supposed to be something similar.

You have absolutely no clue, about history ... all you have read, is a bunch of propaganda written in your schoolbooks, and you didn't have the intellect to look between the lines. Which is why all these desperate tries to equate WWII with some other event ... fails.

It isn't possible to discuss WWII, the jews or the Germans in any context. If you try to be correct about it, you risk hurting the wrong people. So, the "truth" can never come out ... and in reality, that's unfortunate. Because because the truth can't come out, the US is murdereing millions of people ... in the name of "false" justice. This, you pointed out ... correctly. And I agree with ... the war on terrorism, is probably the greatest idiocy the world has ever seen ... it's a war, on an adjective. And just like the war on "drugs" ... it's counter productive.

And this, is where you claiming to be a scholar should've stopped and thought about it. Can it be true, that George Bush, Sr. and Jr. along with Obama and all the other guys, are all just stupid morons. That they don't understand, that war on Terror, and the blaming of Muslims ... is going to paint muslims all over the world, as victims?

You truly think they're ALL that stupid ...

Or ... maybe they know exactly how you think. And that if they make they victimize muslims, you'll feel so sorry for them, and start to equate the whole situation with Hitler in your feeble little mind. And you'll cry teers of sympathy over them.

Maybe that's their purpose in the first place ... maybe it's their purpose, to increase muslim population in the US and Europe, for the purpose of paralizing the population unity in these nations. Maybe it's their purpose, to have as many muslims move out of the middle east, to Europe, so they'll have better control over the middle-east.

Which do you REALLY think is more likely ... that they're all a bunch of IDIOTS ... or that they're playing tricks with your mind.

You really think YOUR smart, and THEY'RE all stupid? :-)

The premise of the OP is based on a comparison, implicitly of injustice, regarding the Jewish people pre-ww2 and the followers of Islam present day.

My own opinion on Islam has been stated, therefore it is redundant to repeat it. I will however repeat the question that this comparison forces us to face.

My question is then, is it wrong to fear the present Islamic threat, given that it has been clearly shown that barbarity WILL, and has already been, the order of the day on the streets of the "enemies of Islam" ?

Is this comparable to the "threat" that the Nazi's sold to their countrymen? Perhaps for them it was such, but for us?

I think not. We may be being lied to, of course we may, but the public is so much more well informed of the realities of the situation today than they were long ago. Which brings me to my main point I guess.

I think what is happening here is that those of us who see the point being made, and in some degree agree with it, BUT wonder if a little bit of fear and trepidation isn't warranted, are being called idiots who can't make up our own minds nor form our own opinions...and all because we think that there may, in fact, be a personal and realistic threat to our very society and personal well-being. Therefore IF we are worried about Islam, IF we decide not to trust a follower of Islam, we are sheep, and the equivalent to the German public pre-3rd Reich.

Okie dokie, message received and understood

a reply to: neformore

Totally different circumstances today than 1930's Nazi Germany. The persecution of minorities is not sanctioned by a fascist government. Very poor comparison, in my opinion.

a reply to: Jonjonj

Are you arguing with the comparison or the premise?

The premise is that punishing a majority for the extremes of a minority is a bad thing.