Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
It's a woman's responsibility to make sure she is being a responsible person in public and not putting herself in situations that could turn harmful. Example that's been used this whole time: Don't get #faced with random people.

You're not responsible for that rape. You are responsible for your actions.

Then why bring rape into it at all? Of course women are responsible for getting drunk when they get drunk. Period. Why, then, add rape? Because it sure SOUNDS LIKE you're saying she's responsible for putting herself into a situation where she got raped. It SOUNDS LIKE you're saying that getting raped is at least partially her doing.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
It's a woman's responsibility to make sure she is being a responsible person in public and not putting herself in situations that could turn harmful. Example that's been used this whole time: Don't get #faced with random people.

You're not responsible for that rape. You are responsible for your actions.

Then why bring rape into it at all? Of course women are responsible for getting drunk when they get drunk. Period. Why, then, add rape? Because it sure SOUNDS LIKE you're saying she's responsible for putting herself into a situation where she got raped. It SOUNDS LIKE you're saying that getting raped is at least partially her doing.

You and a few other people are the only people who are reading that far into it. You shouldn't. It'll stress you out, lol. The reason it was brought up the way it was is because while I agree with the interview, I disagree with the quote. Maybe it's time that women do change in order to possibly secure their safety, because these organizations refuse to do anything to change the other end.
Sacrifices to make changes, I think Tavi was the one that said that.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

No, rape is wrong, period. I already said that, but if your dressed like your putting out, and acting like a straight up slut, than I will have less sympathy for you. Rapist should still be convicted to the full extent of the law.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

How did white people own up to slavery? They had to be forced with a huge civil war to stop and the Civil War wasn't really even fight for slavery but a multitude of other reasons. They then spent a hundred years finding new loopholes to oppress them (Jim Crow laws etc.). Even after MLK and the civil rights movement oppression just became more subtle.

This is off topic though. My fault for bringing up other things that people who don't know history can't follow.

If men take no responsibility for rape it will never stop. Women in Burka's get raped and abused so clearly even the MOST EXTREME example of women being careful doesn't stop the problem. So since that hasnt worked so far let's try holding men accountable for once.

"Insanity : doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" -Albert Einstein

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

How did white people own up to slavery? They had to be forced with a huge civil war to stop and the Civil War wasn't really even fight for slavery but a multitude of other reasons. They then spent a hundred years finding new loopholes to oppress them (Jim Crow laws etc.). Even after MLK and the civil rights movement oppression just became more subtle.

This is off topic though. My fault for bringing up other things that people who don't know history can't follow.

If men take no responsibility for rape it will never stop. Women in Burka's get raped and abused so clearly even the MOST EXTREME example of women being careful doesn't stop the problem. So since that hasnt worked so far let's try holding men accountable for once.

"Insanity : doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" -Albert Einstein

Oh boy.

Only on ATS can a thread about rape turn into a thread about whether or not white people have owned up to slavery.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Let me tell you a story BH, maybe you'll understand where I sort of get this mentality from.

Years ago while living in Toronto, I had this friend , let's call her Kate.

Kate was the kind of girl who did indeed go out and get drunk, black out drunk, wear clothing where there was more fabric on the how to was tag than on the garment itself.

All of that was fine.

So Kate, disappeared for about 3 days and being good friends who saw each other everyday, we got worried and went over to her mum's house to see about her.

Her mom at first refuses to let her see her, but caves eventually. I get upstairs and have a look at her, she looks pretty beat up and obviously got into some kind of fight or trauma. Anyway, long story short, she tells us she got raped, knows who did it and that she's afraid to go to the police because of repercussions.

Classic story of she went out, got black out drunk, got roofied and then woke up in a strange place etc.

Fast forward to a month or two later. Me and my friends doled out some good old fashioned justice to these two men who had raped her. We are in court, they care convicted and sent to prison.

Years later, like 10 years later, Kate confessed the following to me, which is what really happened that night.

She was drinking and approached by these two guys that she already knew from previous drunken nights, they ASKED her whether or not she wanted to do some GHB ( which is date rape drug), she said and I quote " I knew what GHB was and I'd been roofied before so I thought, no big deal let's have some fun".

Then she says she woke up to them you know...and she asked them to stop and they did and then she left.

So she CHOSE to do something and two men went to jail because she got ashamed or scared or wtv like you mentioned.

Although I'm sure the majority of cases aren't like this one, the problem is that these cases like the above, never get talked about, because there is NEVER any way possible that ANYBODY could be responsible for something like that happening to them.

Rape is sometimes used by women as a weapon against men. Where they were consenting at the TIME and changed their minds LATER. That's not rape, that's bad decision making.

~Tenth

act reply to: Lyxdeslic

Women have sacrificed enough. That's the whole point. Asking them to start sacrificing now instead of men doing it for once is like asking poor people to sacrifice more so the rich don't get bothered. Institutionalized oppression of women and minorities was the norm for all of history until recently. The only reason new ways aren't working is because too many people are invested in defending the status quo.

a reply to: tavi45

If men take no responsibility for rape it will never stop...let's try holding men accountable for once.

> stupid generalizing statement
> assumes women dont rape
> rapist wil rape whether you tell them or not
> just makes you look ignorant to call all men rapist

originally posted by: tavi45
act reply to: Lyxdeslic

Women have sacrificed enough. That's the whole point. Asking them to start sacrificing now instead of men doing it for once is like asking poor people to sacrifice more so the rich don't get bothered. Institutionalized oppression of women and minorities was the norm for all of history until recently. The only reason new ways aren't working is because too many people are invested in defending the status quo.

If you want men to get persecuted, find a way to make it happen and I will follow behind you. But until that time happens we need to stop living in fantasy land and women will just have to deal with the fact that this isn't a perfect world and men aren't the safest people to be around if you're drugged, wearing skimpy clothes, are alone, or drinking.
I don't like it, I wish I felt safe outside in shorts. But you know what? If it means I'll be safe, I'll keep wearing jeans outside.

You think it's an overnight change and it's not. This is a world ran by men. This is reality.

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
You and a few other people are the only people who are reading that far into it. You shouldn't.

When I see a quote that appears possibly taken out of context, I look into it further. I should. Picking a quote for a discussion and not including the CONTEXT of that discussion is what causes 50% of the misunderstandings on this board.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
That's not rape, that's bad decision making.
~Tenth

That's what I've been saying. It's not rape. My main complaint here is that a drunken night of consensual sex is being called rape. I don't care who calls it rape, it's not.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

And reality is completely immutable so why bother trying to change right?

It is an overnight change. Prosecute people for the crime. Prosecute people who protect those people.

I can be arrested for questioning a police officers actions under "obstruction of justice" but someone who protects their rapist friend from justice isn't.

The reason it went change is because people like you are apathetic and accept the status quo. No positive change ever came without people standing up and declaring it wrong. Ending racial segregation in schools required Eisenhower to deploy the national guard to enforce the law.

Change happens when people stand up for what is right. I know you or I can't enforce morality but we can at least talk about how the problem is unacceptable and not make excuses or say "that's just the way it is, oh well".


en.m.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Let me tell you a story BH, maybe you'll understand where I sort of get this mentality from.

Years ago while living in Toronto, I had this friend , let's call her Kate.

Kate was the kind of girl who did indeed go out and get drunk, black out drunk, wear clothing where there was more fabric on the how to was tag than on the garment itself.

All of that was fine.

So Kate, disappeared for about 3 days and being good friends who saw each other everyday, we got worried and went over to her mum's house to see about her.

Her mom at first refuses to let her see her, but caves eventually. I get upstairs and have a look at her, she looks pretty beat up and obviously got into some kind of fight or trauma. Anyway, long story short, she tells us she got raped, knows who did it and that she's afraid to go to the police because of repercussions.

Classic story of she went out, got black out drunk, got roofied and then woke up in a strange place etc.

Fast forward to a month or two later. Me and my friends doled out some good old fashioned justice to these two men who had raped her. We are in court, they care convicted and sent to prison.

Years later, like 10 years later, Kate confessed the following to me, which is what really happened that night.

She was drinking and approached by these two guys that she already knew from previous drunken nights, they ASKED her whether or not she wanted to do some GHB ( which is date rape drug), she said and I quote " I knew what GHB was and I'd been roofied before so I thought, no big deal let's have some fun".

Then she says she woke up to them you know...and she asked them to stop and they did and then she left.

So she CHOSE to do something and two men went to jail because she got ashamed or scared or wtv like you mentioned.

Although I'm sure the majority of cases aren't like this one, the problem is that these cases like the above, never get talked about, because there is NEVER any way possible that ANYBODY could be responsible for something like that happening to them.

Rape is sometimes used by women as a weapon against men. Where they were consenting at the TIME and changed their minds LATER. That's not rape, that's bad decision making.

~Tenth

Yeah, sure. She was consenting to be beaten up and raped. Bull.

a reply to: Tangerine

That's what I'm talking about.

If the roles were reversed and it was a man who had this done to him, you would have probably said he got what he deserved for making stupid decisions.

It's so unbelievable that anybody could contribute to their own issues...

~Tenth

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Tangerine
I don't believe the OP is saying that all rapes are always the woman's fault. The main issue of discussion was with the issue of going out and getting so plastered that all of inhibitions are lowered. The morning after she can't remember agreeing to sex or out of shame, cries rape. This type of encounter diminishes the real crimes of rape. In such a scenario, personal responsibility of choices, needs to be applied.

I advocate educating women so they are prepared. No one should have to be a victim, but know exactly what to do. My daughter was raped a few years back, she immediately went to the hospital first. The hospital called the police in. So many rapists get away with rape, because of the victimized mentality of society. They are told what to do in all events of emergencies, yet so many are clueless about rape. Is that because sex is so taboo a subject? rape is an traumatic emergency, go immediately to ER!

I am just saying a man should be responsible for his choices to get sh*t faced, but I women should not, is rediculous and totally bias. I had 3 daughters and now, 3 grandsons. I am more fearful for my grandsons in such a victimized society. I have heard many stories about men waking up after a night on the town, freaked out seeing who they went to bed with! They don't cry rape, they realize that they made some really bad choices and learned a lesson not to get so sh*t faced drunk! Women should accept that same responsibilty, is all I am saying. This type of scenario is not rape. If either one thinks that they were drugged? They should go get a blood test done immediately. That would be rape and intent to harm! Save the prisons for the real criminals or else, the prisons and courts will be so overloaded that the real criminals will not be processed duly.

If you think lots of men have been convicted of date rape, you're out of touch with reality. Even most men who commit stranger rape don't get arrested or convicted. It's close to impossible to convict someone of date rape. Has it ever happened? Sure, but very, very rarely. Have you ever witnessed the police grilling that a woman who claims rape has to go through? I was with my friend when she went through it. It's extensive, extremely detailed and traumatic in itself. Have you ever witnessed the physical exam women who claim rape have to go through? The chances that a date rapist would be convicted, even if guilty, is miniscule. The odds that a man is convicted of rape unless the woman who claims it can prove she was dressed like a nun and lived like a nun, was sober, and was abducted by a stranger with a criminal past are very slim. The chance that a woman who was raped will be metaphorically raped again by the legal system if she reports it are damn near a certainty.

Let's imagine that you are a woman who has been raped. Will what you were wearing last Saturday night past the nun test? Will your entire past pass the nun test?

a reply to: Tangerine

90% of male rape is unreported.

Sexual assault is NOT a gender specific issue.

In North America, women and men are both disadvantaged equally, by our refusal to treat this as gender neutral.

~Tenth

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

We women have ways to rise above being a victim.

What does that mean? At 17, I was raped by a trusted friend (my friend's father). Was I a victim? Should I have known better than to spend the night at her house?

I was a victim of rape. Do I carry it around and hate men and make myself a victim of every situation? No. Do I feel like a "victim of life"? No. But I was a victim of rape. I am a survivor.

What do you mean, "women are not always the victims"? Sometimes they're responsible for their rape? Please elaborate in hopes that some of us can understand where you're coming from.

Your posts are right on point. The OP's posts carry a strong subtext of woman-hating and woman-blaming. Anyone who doubts that should go back and read the first post on this thread. She (if the OP is really a woman as claimed) declares that women are, by nature, victims and hates them (and herself, if she is one) for it. The OP has also declared that this will never change. The real intent of the OP's posts is not to tell women how to protect themselves, as she now claims, but to blame women for being raped and causing problems for the rapists. I suspect that the OP is either not a woman or has a male family member or friend who was charged with or convicted of rape. A woman who truly felt that women are perpetual victims would be railing against the society that creates that situation not ranting about the poor men who are (unjustly, she claims) convicted of rape.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
...

Don't get me wrong, I know what rape is all about. I had been raped as a child. In some cases, it is unavoidable and the victim is truly a victim. ...

So in some cases, the woman who is raped is not truly a victim???? Think carefully about what you've said.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Tangerine

90% of male rape is unreported.

Sexual assault is NOT a gender specific issue.

In North America, women and men are both disadvantaged equally, by our refusal to treat this as gender neutral.

~Tenth

The topic is the rape of women and you're not going to derail the topic.