Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

originally posted by: James1982


Subjects like this are tricky to discuss, and ideas are really hard to flesh out and communicate over a message board. My post was in reply to Cuervo, when I said I disagreed with you it was because the feeling I got from your post just didn't match my views on the matter, whether that's because of poor communication on either of our part or because we don't actually agree I'm not sure, just saying how it is, not meant as an attack on you.

I've come to realize that they are incredibly tricky to discuss. Few people have understood what I meant, but the majority don't. I just meant that women need to take personal responsibility in order to keep themselves safe. If you look at a situation and think "This might not end well" you probably shouldn't put yourself in that situation. I mean, why would you? This world is not rainbows and butterflies and unfortunately we're at a point where maybe women do need to change to keep themselves safe. In a perfect world a woman could be drunkenly walking around in the nude and everyone would continue their lives and not worry about it. But it's not like that. So we need to take personal responsibility and protect ourselves. When it comes to drunken women being raped, it's possible that it can be avoided by a change in behavior because as stated earlier, rapists go after easy targets. A drunken or passed out woman is an easy target. I wouldn't dare tell a person who was raped, "Well hey, maybe if you weren't stupid drunk you wouldn't have been raped," but it's a possibility that in the future they may avoid the chances of being raped by avoiding being stupid drunk in public, as they wouldn't be considered an 'easy target.' If that makes sense? In a perfect world predators wouldn't go after people. There wouldn't be predators. But up until then, we women have to have a sense of personal responsibility to avoid harmful situations. I mean... Unless they are being forced to drink until they pass out. Which I don't know, I was never really a party girl, so I don't know if that actually happens.

Bottom line is women already know to be careful. Men already know they shouldn't rape.

You're correct in that it still happens despite that

But these rapists should be prosecuted. They aren't in many many cases.

I don't know you people but the fact is the "personal responsibility" message has been spread far and wide and now is mostly used as an excuse to consider rape.

Maybe you should spend less time telling women to be EVEN MORE on guard than they already are and spread the message that rapists shouldn't be let off the hook.

If I raped your mom or sister you'd want me thrown in jail right? So why do cops, sports players, college students, businessmen, and soldiers rarely face consequences.

Same issue as police brutality, white collar crime and protected hate mongering. If you have money, prestige, or connections you get a nearly carte Blanche to rape women. This is inherently wrong. So stop spreading the message of "personal responsibility". Yes some people do put themselves at risk but must victims do not.

Personal responsibility has become a codeword for " it's the victims fault". This is true with foreclosures, rape, domestic violence, police brutality and hate crimes among other less prominent issues.

The fact that I can make the point in so many different ways and you just ignore it and repeat your mantra of "personal responsibility" is a stark reminder of the lack of empathy and disconnect from realty that's so prevalent in modern developed countries.

Please be aware. Most people exercise "personal responsibility" and are still made victims of our corrupt society in so many ways. Stop blaming the victims. When you say they need to be more responsible you imply that you didn't suffer the same fate because you did something right that others failed to do. Feel free to keep responding but I will not let this go.

I'm 100% right. So is Jon Stewart. So is Senator Gillabrand. Please open your minds a little more. Rape should be as unacceptable as murder or pedophilia but it's not. That's just plain wrong.

This may be off-topic, but I think it connects. As one of our highly lauded posters said earlier:

If a woman got black-out drunk, dressed scantily, and danced provocatively every single night for her entire life and she even once got raped, it would not be her fault. Rape is the fault of the rapist, no matter what.

This is the position that no matter how one is encouraged to, by the appearance and conduct of a woman, sexual assault (or any other assault, I assume) can never be tolerated, explained away, or justified.

Is that position applicable to women only?

What would happen if I went to Ferguson, Missouri and walked into a bar in one of the almost exclusively black neighborhoods? To make it fun, say I was wearing Confederate flags, singing "Dixie," and loudly proclaiming "I'll buy a drink for everybody who is a friend of the police."

After they dispose of my remains, will people say that no matter how I dressed, or what I said, my death was entirely the fault of the bar patrons, and they should all be sentenced for murder? Or would people say that it was my fault for walking into a volatile situation and "arousing passions?"

Rape is wrong. I agree. I never disagreed.
I think it's wrong that people get away with it and when it even close to reported on the news I'm one of the first people in the room to call bull# when the person gets away with it. 'Personal responsibility' is only codeword for 'it's your fault' to the people who see it that way. I for one, are not one of the people who see it that way. I see it as the best possible way to say "Be safe, be well, take care of yourself, be a self saving person.'

You know?
These people should be persecuted. And they aren't. When every single rapist and wrong doer is persecuted, women and other people will not have to be as careful. Until then we need to be careful and make ourselves at least LOOK strong, so we are not seen as weak and easy to overpower.

I am aware of the problems in the world, that's why this was posted, and why I've posted on many other peoples threads, as intelligently as I can manage. You see it as blaming victims, but I don't. And it seems that a few others don't see it as victim blaming when you say that a person or few people could change things in order to make themselves feel, look or seem safer, and less overpowerable. That's not blaming, unless you say after the fact that the person should have done such and such in their situation. But we're saying that women/children/men as a whole can do different things in order to look less overpowerable, as predators go after those who look easy and overpowerable.

I suffered through abuse when I was a child. There was obviously nothing I could do as a child other than tell people and hope they believed me. This led to me being an overly cautious adult, as I stated earlier. I overthink everything. I don't walk around at night unless I have a knife and I am talking on the phone, or I am with someone. i don't get drunk in public, and when I go to bars, I don't drink at all unless it's a sealed bottle, and it comes to me sealed. I don't dress skimpily unless I'm in the comfort of my own home. I might wear shorts in my house, but if I have to take the dog out or something, I WILL put on sweatpants over my shorts. Is that going too far? Maybe. But I feel just a little bit safer. I think in a way it's almost common sense to at least try to stay somewhat sober in public, as you put yourself at risk for much more than just rape if you're not. But if you don't agree with that, that's your thing, and I'm not going to judge you for that.

I'm not saying that if someone is raped they failed or something, because they didn't. We don't know these independent situations. We don't know what they did, why, or what have you.

a reply to: charles1952

1) They might just kick you out of the bar not kill you. Way to be racist and sexist. How about you test this scenario out for us and let us know what happens.

2) so are you saying all men are thugs with no control? Since that's the racist assumption you're implying about blacks

3) celebrating racism and slavery is not the same as wanting to look attractive, which is something all woman are encouraged to do from birth all throughout life

4) once again, how does this kind of argument apply to female soldiers who clearly are not super sluts like you think all women are. Any woman in the military has more courage than almost any man alive

5) seriously. You still wanna argue this? Men still have ever advantage possible over women and whites have every advantage over Blacks. This is the kind of attitude that's destroying our nation. I'm sorry you can't enjoy the full spectrum of privilege your ancestors did. I'm extra sorry that women and minorities had to ruin your idyllic first world lifestyle with their menial complaints. They should just shut up and accept their place as second class citizens eh?

When's the next Klan meeting? I'd live to show up and participate. I'd blend right in with my straight white male superficial behavior. I'd love to get the reaction when they find out I'm a dirty faggot and drag me through town behind their car to vent their frustrations at not being undisputed matter of all they survey.

I thought this thread couldn't get any more base but thanks for showing me that anything truly is possible.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

I'm sorry we live in a world where someone can be abused as a child and there are no consequences except for the victim whose entire life is fundamentally altered by the tragedy and who can never know true peace of mind.

Best of luck to you in all your endeavors but please don't be a martyr for the cause of your abusers. You help no one by promoting "personal responsibility" of victims over justice against disgusting criminals. I'm glad you protect yourself. So does my sister. My whole point is less burden should be placed on the oppressed and more burden on the oppressor. You're advocating the opposite.

a reply to: tavi45

Dear tavi45,

I'm sorry that there is so much misunderstanding. It is my intent to be fairly clear when I write, but I often fail. Man's fallen nature, I suppose. Might I ask you to reconsider my comments? I'll try to explain them more clearly. But even with a clarification, I disagree with the points you have raised and deny them. Perhaps that stems from the confusion.

The thread was intended to discuss the responsibility of the rapist, and the possibility of mitigating factors. My remarks were directed at the position taken by one poster, who firmly insisted that there are no mitigating factors possible. Whatever the provocation, a rape is entirely the fault of the rapist.

I assumed, for the moment, that he was correct. If that is true, I wondered, is the case of rape against a woman the only offense that applies to, or is "the victim never has any share of the responsibility" a more universally applicable position.

I then searched for another case where there is a great deal of provocation. With Ferguson in the news and hot on the ATS threads with violence and claims of racism all over, I stumbled upon the idea of an intentionally and flamboyant racist man walking into a bar full of Black men and women.

It seemed to me that in that situation violence would erupt, the idea that he would calmly be asked to leave by one and all, is silly beyond comprehension. Violence would be done.

I wondered if ATS and the news would say "Well, he had it coming. Any idiot would know that it would further increase passions already on the verge of breaking, and by failing to adapt his behavior to the circumstances he is as much at fault as those who beat him." It seems to me that that would be the fairly common refrain.

I then wondered if this shows that the idea "No matter what she did, said, or how she behaved, the rapist is 100% at fault" applies only to rape.

It seems that you are making two arguments, but we can get to those when this confusion is cleared up.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: bkaust

Excuse me? I stated my opinion that if a female wants to go out dressed like a whore, does whoreish stuff, and than is amazed when that's what she's treated like, that's on her. She probably should of thought that one over more. Rape is wrong period, but they should at least see it coming from their actions. And I agree with you, If someone want's to act like an asshole in public, they shouldn't be shocked when someone knocks them out. Assault is wrong period, but that person should of probably thought their actions through a little more.

a reply to: intrepid

Lol, what? I'm pretty sure when someone is about to rape somebody else (especially a man to a woman), I'd assume he'd be thinking about the pleasure he's about to receive from raping said woman, rather than him thinking how dominant he is over her.

a reply to: tavi45

Where did I say that I would call her lame if she didn't dress like a whore? It's called class. The media is totally F***** up, I totally agree with you there. But shouldn't people have enough common to sense to be like,"No, this is wrong" compared to "Alright, these people are acting like total jack F**** and claiming it's the cool thing to do, Gee, I wish I was also cool. I'm gonna to the same things that they are doing so I can be cool too."

I simply stated, Act like a whore, get treated like one. If you don't want to be treated as a whore, than don't act like one. If an nothingoutoftheordinary woman was raped, yeah, that's messed up.

originally posted by: James1982


The "teach men not to rape" IMHO simply will not do anything. All women are potential rape victims, NOT all men are potential rapists. Sitting and telling a room full of men that rape isn't OK won't accomplish anything because most of them already feel that in their soul, the ones that DO think it's OK will NOT listen to someone telling them it's bad. They are sick people who need to be identified, not hidden away by being mixed in with half the worlds population as "just another man.

I'm not sure if it's hard to understand (or believe) coming from a female perspective, but rape is not something most men take lightly or defend in any way. Most of us love our sisters, our mothers, our aunts, our daughters and would never want anything like that to happen to anyone. We hate rapists too. We are your allies, but being treated constantly like the enemy for simply having a penis takes it's toll.

You're half right. All women are potential rape victims. But you're wrong when you say not all men are potential rapists. Potentially, they are. The difference is that no woman choses to be a rape victim and some men chose to rape. Multiple posts have focused on what women should do and not do to avoid being raped and the unspoken assumption in those posts is that all men are potentially rapists. The posters are warning women against getting drunk or being drunk around any men. They're warning women against dressing "seductively" around any men. It doesn't take much insight to realize that they believe that it's up to women to not get raped and, if they do, well it's their fault.

I'm sure that some men, maybe even most, regard rape as reprehensible, but a significant number obviously don't. A smaller number of them commit rapes but it's condoned or regarded as acceptable by a significant number (the "she asked for it" crowd). If it weren't, it wouldn't be so common. I don't want to derail the current topic, but all those children couldn't have been systematically raped by some priests if a larger number who didn't commit the actual rapes hadn't condoned it or regarded it as acceptable. The same applies when it comes to women being raped.

Yes, there are some truly deranged people who will not be deterred by anything short of confinement or death, but many who commit these crimes will be deterred by the certain knowledge that their male friends will be the first to call the cops and testify against them rather than slap them on the back for having a little sport or look the other way. Peer pressure is extremely powerful and it still does not exist when it comes to stopping rape. Telling your male friends that you'd turn them in to the cops if they raped someone will go much further than telling women how to "avoid getting raped." I get the impression that you're the kind of man who might have the courage to say that to your male friends.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

I'm sorry we live in a world where someone can be abused as a child and there are no consequences except for the victim whose entire life is fundamentally altered by the tragedy and who can never know true peace of mind.

Best of luck to you in all your endeavors but please don't be a martyr for the cause of your abusers. You help no one by promoting "personal responsibility" of victims over justice against disgusting criminals. I'm glad you protect yourself. So does my sister. My whole point is less burden should be placed on the oppressed and more burden on the oppressor. You're advocating the opposite.

Well said. A friend of mine was raped. She was an amateur musician who occasionally got together with other amateur musicians to play music. On one occasion, she ran into one of the musicians at the grocery store and he invited her to his home to practice. When she got there, they played their guitars for awhile and then he raped her and held her captive for hours, threatening to kill her. Eventually, she escaped and showed up at my door. Some of her clothes (jeans and a shirt) were inside out and some of her hair had been ripped out. There was blood. She was shaking so badly that the door she leaned against rattled. In other words, she wasn't making it up (sorry to disappoint the OP). I went with her to the police and, later, to the D.A.. The D.A. refused to press charges . I challenged the D.A. and he said he didn't believe a jury would convict the guy because, "She went to his house alone. The jury won't believe she didn't go there to have sex with him."

That's where this "personal responsibility" crap the OP is pushing leads. I wonder how many more women the guy raped.

a reply to: Tangerine
I don't believe the OP is saying that all rapes are always the woman's fault. The main issue of discussion was with the issue of going out and getting so plastered that all of inhibitions are lowered. The morning after she can't remember agreeing to sex or out of shame, cries rape. This type of encounter diminishes the real crimes of rape. In such a scenario, personal responsibility of choices, needs to be applied.

I advocate educating women so they are prepared. No one should have to be a victim, but know exactly what to do. My daughter was raped a few years back, she immediately went to the hospital first. The hospital called the police in. So many rapists get away with rape, because of the victimized mentality of society. They are told what to do in all events of emergencies, yet so many are clueless about rape. Is that because sex is so taboo a subject? rape is an traumatic emergency, go immediately to ER!

I am just saying a man should be responsible for his choices to get sh*t faced, but I women should not, is rediculous and totally bias. I had 3 daughters and now, 3 grandsons. I am more fearful for my grandsons in such a victimized society. I have heard many stories about men waking up after a night on the town, freaked out seeing who they went to bed with! They don't cry rape, they realize that they made some really bad choices and learned a lesson not to get so sh*t faced drunk! Women should accept that same responsibilty, is all I am saying. This type of scenario is not rape. If either one thinks that they were drugged? They should go get a blood test done immediately. That would be rape and intent to harm! Save the prisons for the real criminals or else, the prisons and courts will be so overloaded that the real criminals will not be processed duly.

Hey OP. I agree. In fact, we should force the women to wear a burqa and not show us blokes ANY flesh at all, lest they entice our carnal desires and we give in to the sins that they provoke, eh!

I mean, the cat will always eat the uncovered meat, so whose fault is it if the meat goes out uncovered when the cats eat it? the meats.. righteously !!

So.. whats the plan, shall we make showing hair and skin a sin, punishable by beating and hanging, or public stoning?

How do we stop these ungodly women from tempting us blokes?

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
Despite the fact that my mother tried her very hardest to teach us the right way to act, he steals, lies, cheats, etc.

If your brother is stealing from people, then those people should be more responsible and hide their belongings from him better. They should take responsibility for the theft, right? I mean, since you can't teach your brother not to lie, cheat and steal, we need to hold the people he's hurting more responsible, right?

a reply to: sn0rch

Your sarcasm is obvious, but part of the problem. I don't see where the OP is suggesting any such thing! She is pointing out that when we do make certain choices, male or female, we can put ourselves in unpleasant situations. Being aware of this fact, instead of denying, will be more helpful in avoiding being a victim. When a woman dresses sexy, she should be more alert and aware. Telling women it doesn't matter what choices they make only creates more victims! Certainly, women in burqas have been raped too. Rape is not just about horny guys! Being personally responsible for your choices is not a get out of jail free card for rapists, it is a means to reduce the possibility of being a statistical victim.

originally posted by: ItzShadyT
a reply to: Cuervo

Not that I condone rape, but if a female is acting like a whore, dressed like a whore, etc. Than she shouldn't be shocked when something like that happens to her.

So... prostitutes deserve to be raped? Women who dress provocatively give up the right to self-governance? Dressing a certain way means "yes" even if she says "no"? Is that basically what you're saying?

originally posted by: docgreen15
a reply to: Cuervo
I'm not sure what someones actual motivation would be for raping someone so I might have this wrong but one would think it's sexual.

You do have it wrong. Rape is about having POWER over a woman, not having sex with her. That's why old, fat grammas are raped.

Could it then also be said that a rapist might look for these woman who are acting "promiscuous" as it might be the case that they may willing have sex rather than this rapist having to force him self on them?

A rapist isn't looking for someone who's WILLING to have sex! They're looking for someone who ISN'T! They want to be powerful over her. They want to TAKE something from her, not have it given to them.

originally posted by: docgreen15
I feel the need to elaberate more, as far as the woman in the millitary statement... well weighing up the risks like "I'm going to be working in testosterone crazed male dominated environment working alongside and under trained murders than literally kill people for a living" and then assuming you'll be safe is literally insane! Again, this does not translate to "deserving" anything or "expecting" anything, it's just saying being logical she works with people who clearly could flip at any point and do radical # at the drop of a hat, I'd feel unsafe in that environment.

So, women don't belong in the military because every man is a potential rapist? You are a piece of work! Men fight tooth and nail to dispel the notion that every man is a potential rapist and I fight it, too. Every man is an individual and generalizing women and men as you do makes me ill!

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

We women have ways to rise above being a victim.

What does that mean? At 17, I was raped by a trusted friend (my friend's father). Was I a victim? Should I have known better than to spend the night at her house?

I was a victim of rape. Do I carry it around and hate men and make myself a victim of every situation? No. Do I feel like a "victim of life"? No. But I was a victim of rape. I am a survivor.

What do you mean, "women are not always the victims"? Sometimes they're responsible for their rape? Please elaborate in hopes that some of us can understand where you're coming from.