Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

a reply to: Serdgiam

I know women that get men drunk for the same purposes, but that tends to be acceptable.

umm just how does that work? do they put a gun to their head or a funnel in their mouths and pour it in?
how about we accept the idea that people chose to get themselves drunk and outside of a small number of people (those who are having their first experiences with alchohol) know full well what they are doing.

and well have to ask this
is it possible to rape a man who is drunk and passed out? kind of think not.

the fact of the matter is that women could all dress and burkas and some would still be raped.

the women who gets drunk is more than likely out to have a good time. The man who sees her drunk to incompacitation though and decides to rape her well what is he thinking? it certainly ain't hey this lady is the picture image of someone I would like to have a kid with!
now a women upon seeing a man incompacitated like that would more than likely decide that she really doesn't want the guy to be the daddy of her kids and pass him by.
considering they are sane that is.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: windword

Hey windword how do I applaud you for your post. I love you bringing that famous WW2 picture up as well as for helping me in my mission

This famous pic reminds me of when I was in High school cross country. At one race one school brought their cheer leaders. First time I'd ever seen this happen (on team for all 4 years). When they were handing out trophies for the male varsity race the top 10 finishers decided to kiss the cheer leader handing them their trophy. The cheer leaders were "good sports" and let the guys kiss them (pimply nerdy guys). I felt so sorry for them and expected at some point for a cheer leader to say "no way", but they didn't, nor did they look too happy. I think they were just hoping they wouldn't get the grossest of the gross.

Just read your post on male culture. Agree, it applies in so may ways, like when men get older and want that younger upgrade they can brag about. I see a lot of that, not so much from when I grew up with 3 older brothers, but in the work place surrounded by mechanics.

originally posted by: Serdgiam

originally posted by: dawnstar
umm considering how child support payments could screw up your life for about 18-20 years or so ummm
don't go picking up drunk girls at bars and having sex with them
matter of fact don't have sex with any girls until you know them well enough to know that you wouldn't mind being tied down by them for about oh 18-20 years at least??

Yup.

why is it that girls are irresponsible for drinking too much but men aren't when they pick them up drunk out of their mind and proceed to procreate with them?

I would consider both of them irresponsible if they drank too much and both consented in the moment. I know women that get men drunk for the same purposes, but that tends to be acceptable. I think pretty much all of it is irresponsible and can lead to mistakes. It crosses the line into the criminal when one party is unable to give consent, or outright refuses. Both of those should be respected, but the former is being muddied on what exactly 'unable to give consent' actually means. I believe there is a very real discussion to be had there, but it is not gender specific. When we make it that way, it alienates an entire gender on what should be a general social issue (respect).

It's simply a fact that a woman can be raped while completely incapacitated and a man can't rape while completely incapacitated. There has to be intent on the part of the man. Unable to give consent means just that. As far as rape is concerned, not having given consent is rape. Someone couldn't get away with taking someone's car without expressed consent using the argument, "I could tell s/he wanted me to take it."

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: tavi45

Why dont you actually make some of those suggestions?

What do you suggest I do, as a male?

You didn't ask me, but I would suggest that you clearly state to your male friends that if you witness them raping someone or find out after the fact that they've raped someone you will report them to the police. I would suggest that when you hear comments like, "She's asking for it" or "She was asking for it" or "She deserved it", you make clear your position that real men don't think that way.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Serdgiam

I know women that get men drunk for the same purposes, but that tends to be acceptable.

umm just how does that work? do they put a gun to their head or a funnel in their mouths and pour it in?
how about we accept the idea that people chose to get themselves drunk and outside of a small number of people (those who are having their first experiences with alchohol) know full well what they are doing.

Why do you think we are saying something different? I am talking about intent behind actions, while you are talking about the actions. Of course people know what happens when we consume alcohol, but there are plenty of ways to bait someone into drinking more than they should. Obviously, the ultimate decision is up to the individual, but realistically, plenty will be influenced.

and well have to ask this
is it possible to rape a man who is drunk and passed out? kind of think not.

It most certainly is possible, even in the 'traditional' sense. Alcohol will inhibit the response though.

the fact of the matter is that women could all dress and burkas and some would still be raped.

As I have said, I agree.

the women who gets drunk is more than likely out to have a good time. The man who sees her drunk to incompacitation though and decides to rape her well what is he thinking? it certainly ain't hey this lady is the picture image of someone I would like to have a kid with!

I couldn't tell you what a rapist thinks in such a situation.

now a women upon seeing a man incompacitated like that would more than likely decide that she really doesn't want the guy to be the daddy of her kids and pass him by.
considering they are sane that is.

Separating these statements out insinuates that you might feel it is the norm for a male to have sex with a passed out woman, while only the 'insane' women would even consider such an act. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I have also been told that specifically. In the case of either gender, it is a behavioral issue that is not normal.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
You do know that most rapes are by someone you know. It's not like most rapists are hiding in the bushes waiting for someone in scant clothing to walk by.

Mine was. I was out running on a military post.

And describe how well you know them. When they say 60% know their attackers this means it could be the guy they saw at the store once. They knew who he was, but did not actually now him. Only about 30% know them well.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Serdgiam

What do you suggest I do, as a male?

Help us delineate between culturally "blurred lines" that makes it seem as though sexual assault is as American as apple pie.

Help us break the "I know you wanted it" mentality, that is still the "cool image" today!

I think predators vocalize the "I know she wanted it" thing implying that she wanted sex, but I think this is far more about power and control and punishment. The intent, except in some date rape cases (emphasis on some) is to terrify and brutalize. The mentality is the same as that involved in torturing: I have the power to do this and so I'm going to do it. On one level, it's about entitlement.

originally posted by: Serdgiam

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Serdgiam

I know women that get men drunk for the same purposes, but that tends to be acceptable.

umm just how does that work? do they put a gun to their head or a funnel in their mouths and pour it in?
how about we accept the idea that people chose to get themselves drunk and outside of a small number of people (those who are having their first experiences with alchohol) know full well what they are doing.

Why do you think we are saying something different? I am talking about intent behind actions, while you are talking about the actions. Of course people know what happens when we consume alcohol, but there are plenty of ways to bait someone into drinking more than they should. Obviously, the ultimate decision is up to the individual, but realistically, plenty will be influenced.

and well have to ask this
is it possible to rape a man who is drunk and passed out? kind of think not.

It most certainly is possible, even in the 'traditional' sense. Alcohol will inhibit the response though.

the fact of the matter is that women could all dress and burkas and some would still be raped.

As I have said, I agree.

the women who gets drunk is more than likely out to have a good time. The man who sees her drunk to incompacitation though and decides to rape her well what is he thinking? it certainly ain't hey this lady is the picture image of someone I would like to have a kid with!

I couldn't tell you what a rapist thinks in such a situation.

now a women upon seeing a man incompacitated like that would more than likely decide that she really doesn't want the guy to be the daddy of her kids and pass him by.
considering they are sane that is.

Separating these statements out insinuates that you might feel it is the norm for a male to have sex with a passed out woman, while only the 'insane' women would even consider such an act. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I have also been told that specifically. In the case of either gender, it is a behavioral issue that is not normal.

I have never once in my life heard a woman talk about raping a man, conscious or unconscious, or make a joke about a woman or a man raping a man, or condone raping men. Talking about women raping unconscious men, although it may possibly have happened somewhere in the world, is grasping at straws. If you're trying to suggest that rape is equally the avocation of men and women, you're way off base. It simply isn't. These comments are directed at the original poster, not the responder.

a reply to: Tangerine

Everyone in my life is already aware of all of that, and tend to feel the same way.

I think the whole 'dress' argument is a weak defensive response in the first place. I would rather discuss other facets of the conversation than argue about its veracity. Beyond that, it has never come up as any sort of argument, or need for correction in the first place. All of my friends look at it as a deplorable act. We tend to discuss broader solutions that address many topics though, due to the general consensus that most societal issues have deeper root causes. Symptoms of a sick society, rather than the disease itself.

So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Tangerine

Everyone in my life is already aware of all of that, and tend to feel the same way.

I think the whole 'dress' argument is a weak defensive response in the first place. I would rather discuss other facets of the conversation than argue about its veracity. Beyond that, it has never come up as any sort of argument, or need for correction in the first place. All of my friends look at it as a deplorable act. We tend to discuss broader solutions that address many topics though, due to the general consensus that most societal issues have deeper root causes. Symptoms of a sick society, rather than the disease itself.

So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?

I would suggest that a large part of the sickness of society is patriarchy which is a bad system for both women and men. It's hierarchical and aggressive. The hierarchical part means, of course, that if someone is on top, many are not. The aggressive part means that the way to get on top and stay there is through aggression. Rape is an expression of both those things as are exploitation and destruction of the environment, exploitation of workers, war, etc.

originally posted by: ItzShadyT
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

No, rape is wrong, period. I already said that, but if your dressed like your putting out, and acting like a straight up slut, than I will have less sympathy for you. Rapist should still be convicted to the full extent of the law.

And this is where some education is needed. Many males have been taught, wrongly, that if a woman isn't covered from head to toe she is a slut. Not so. If she was acting the slut she would be literally crawling over every man in the bar and literally putting her boobs in your face. Boys should be taught to respect every human, even women. They need to be taught not to take advantage of passed out women (many think it's ok too have sex if she's passed out).

Do you have this happen to you in the bar? Not counting your date of course.

Maybe I go to the wrong places but I've maybe seen this so called "slut" once. Except she wasn't crawling over every guy. There was, however, half the bar wanting to talk to her. She still wasn't asking to be raped, haven't seen that one yet.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Tangerine

90% of male rape is unreported.

Sexual assault is NOT a gender specific issue.

In North America, women and men are both disadvantaged equally, by our refusal to treat this as gender neutral.

~Tenth

You do realize that the raped men were raped by other men right?

There are very few women that rape, most are men, even if they choose to rape other men.

No, the don't have the same threat.

I'm a runner and I love running on trails. If I want to do that I either have to run with a partner (hard for working mothers) or carry a gun and be prepared to shot.

However, guys can go on a run and not have near as many worries.

Jessica Williams, Daily Show on sexism

Sexism


Fault in our schools

Both from the Daily Show this past summer. The 2nd one the rapists were expelled after they get to graduate. BS, right. Any way Jessica Williams does a great job.

a reply to: Merlynn

Excuse me but that's just not true. Men have to be afraid of women raping them when they go out for a jog too. This is an equal problem for both genders. You're overgeneralizing. Men live in fear of rape by women just like women fear it from men.

a reply to: Serdgiam

So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?

So, problem fixed? It doesn't concern you, so there's no problem?

Since you and all your friends have the rape and date rape thing down, let me ask you this. Do you or any of your friends have a sister, daughter, wife, mother, friend, that was raped, or is that something that you and your friends already have down too? Are your women and your friends' women immune from rape? Are you sure that your women are safe around your friends and their friends' friends?

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Merlynn

Excuse me but that's just not true. Men have to be afraid of women raping them when they go out for a jog too. This is an equal problem for both genders. You're overgeneralizing. Men live in fear of rape by women just like women fear it from men.

You're joking, right?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Serdgiam

So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?

So, problem fixed? It doesn't concern you, so there's no problem?

Since you and all your friends have the rape and date rape thing down, let me ask you this. Do you or any of your friends have a sister, daughter, wife, mother, friend, that was raped, or is that something that you and your friends already have down too? Are your women and your friends' women immune from rape? Are you sure that your women are safe around your friends and their friends' friends?

Good questions but the use of the expression "your women" gave me the shivers. The "your women" mindset implies ownership and entitlement and that is the foundational problem. For what it's worth, your posts don't suggest that you intended it that way.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Merlynn

Excuse me but that's just not true. Men have to be afraid of women raping them when they go out for a jog too. This is an equal problem for both genders. You're overgeneralizing. Men live in fear of rape by women just like women fear it from men.

How many men do you personally know who have been raped by women and under what circumstances?

I doubt that any of us do NOT know women who have been raped by men.

a reply to: Tangerine

Lol pay attention. I'm the one on your side. I thought the sarcasm would come through or maybe
You'd notice the username of the person in this thread who's been responding with your viewpoint more than you. People need to be more careful in their reading and not just jump to a response.